"The Baha'i Faith"

[DavidMark]

katgee: “Christ is never returning to this world. He will only return in person as judge and usher in a new heaven and earth, and this contradicts Ba’hai beliefs as well.”
Your understanding of a “new heaven and a new earth” might be improved when you see that Jesus brought a new heaven to the Jews, that their leaders knew nothing of, and this led to a “new earth” of human institutions based on that. This renewal process has been going forever.
I notice that some people refuse to spell Bahá’í correctly, as if they don’t want to dignify it, even linguisticly.

Jewells17: Do you hate the rabbis who don’t believe in the Rabbi? No! Neither do we hate previous expressions of the divine will in the world. I personally love to associate with all mankind, including Catholics, and don’t appreciate being told that I hate them.

planten: It was the hope of Muslims that the messiah Mahdí establish justice. Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb have done this, but even the Israelis are unaware in general. People have to accept the authority of a court for its blessing to become apparent. And ‘The purpose of justice is the appearance of unity among men.’ (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 66) And the Holy Land is the Land of Unity, although it seems like a cauldron of hates. They will come to realize

There are many many directions that humans take. The Lord of Oneness is calling all mankind to Him and it is His Way among the confusion. For instance, in 1974, an Egyptian named Rashad Khalifa used a time-share terminal hooked up to a phone to test numerical theories about the Qur’an, and discovered that the number 19 is prevalent throughout. In Arabic, letters have values, and the value of Waahed (Unity) is 19. Unity is the message of all the Messengers and it has become more urgent and more emphasized through time. However, the Bab had no computer but His heart, and created a Faith based uponthe first group of believers and Himself, totalling 19, and a calendar with 19 months that Bahá’u’lláh retained for His 1000+ year Dispensation. Yet, the Submitters who follow Khalifa have made him the center of God’s Covenant with mankind, which will not stand up to proof.

 

[katgee]

About using markings to dignify the name Baha’i, no offense intended. I am not the best with computers, that is all.

Planten gave me the impression he did not understand my thought or read a number of my remarks. I have found that interacting with Muslims, they don’t understand the references I use and I find that they relate to understanding faith very differently. It is a matter of finding a manner of communication that they can understand, of which I haven’t found yet. There was a fellow called Islamic Scholars, a very benevolent person married to a Christian. He had an agnostic friend who showed that people who are faithful to their religion have a place with Allah in the next life. But if you read down the passages, it comes to the polytheists who won’t have a place. Several of us tried to refer to it for discussion, but the Scholar would not look at it. A Jew also asked very pointed questions about the Scholar’s position, as well as the Quran’s regarding the Jews, and the Scholar kept evading. They also deny the crucifixion of Christ and the perspective of Christ’s teachings as handed down to us by the Apostles who knew Him.

Christ will not come back to rule this world that we see and deal with. He will come to judge, and then to restore all things creating a new heaven and new earth. If Christ were to come back tomorrow to rule among us, there would then be no need for faith or hope. It is through faith that we are saved. And regarding the Jews, Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. The many precursors and events pointed to the new life in Jesus, such as the Manna from heaven that fed the Jews in the desert, to Christ – the Food of New Life – being born in an animal feeder, a manger --that we cannot separate ourselves from the Jewish people who gave us the Word of God, the foundation of worship, the commandments, the many allegories of the Old Testament that are now blossomed in life in the church. The sacraments are the gifts of the Old Covenant. Thus, it is very wrong to have enmnity with the Jews.

The kingdom of Christ is within…and we can experience the eternal now depending on the dispositions of our hearts and souls. We look forward not so much as Him coming back to judge, but to wipe away all tears, for the final Resurrection where we will be united to Him…but again, it won’t be in the times of this present world.

It is not about me vs you, or domination and submission. Although there is a legitimate application of numbers that bear truth to the existence of God just as the ancient Chaldeans found God in a limited way…we tend to steer away from numbers and years…only the Father knows Christ’s return.

 

[Jerusha]

Jerusha, I do not feel “all roads lead to Rome” but rather to the Holy Land, and this is symptomatic of the estrangement that has happened between the administrative and spiritual centers…I know you are saying it in the belief that the Papacy has the last say;

You caught my meaning. Time will tell which of our beliefs is right. I agree that in another sense, the center is Israel. However, given the unsettled nature of things there, it would be an inhospitable climate. And the Jews have first dibs. You, as “Noahides” are, of course, welcome. Although we have differences in belief, we have commonality in ethics. That is the reason why I recommend your faith to people leaving the LDS church, who cannot accept Catholicism or Christianity, and are uncomfortable with agnosticism or atheism. I believe it is only a way-station to religious tolerance, you believe otherwise. That is OK.

 

[katgee]

Israel means ‘those who seek the truth’…one meaning atleast…and Israel is the heart of true religion. As Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism, the salvation history here is 5,600 years old…why go to another?

One must study and experience the faith of a Jew, atleast the basic tenants, visit a synagogue, know of the different expressions of faith. As far as Catholicism goes, one should instead read the history and documents of the form of worship, and the first followers of the Apostles carried on the belief that the Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ that brings us eternal life.

To have such a belief requires the church environment itself affirm its basic tenants. Go to Mass, read the saints, see how so many different personalities and expressions still supported the understanding of Christ as True God and True Man.

My daughter married into a Presbyterian/Fundamentalist family. The parents visited our home. We have a statue of Mary in the livingroom, and the fundamentalist parent cringed…I invited her to a Marian banquet. At the end, she said she now understood how we relate to Mary and is now OK with it, and found it grace filled.

Same with understanding the Papacy, the saints, the use of statues…some of this mere embellishment of art and culture. Experiencing something from within rather than from the outside through mere words…as different speakers can draw on different understandings…really can’t bring about better comprehension Catholicism is multi-dimensional, a very complex institution. There are many misconceptions of it as well.

 

[katgee]

Planten,

One more remark…you say to keep Islam out…it does draw me in when it brings up Christ. Your understanding draws on parts from the Bible…Mohammed had contacts with Catholics and Jews…and I think by now you know of the Liturgy of the Hours where those who practice it in religious houses pray numerous times during the day…but Mohammed’s new way of explaining Christ contradicts His life, teachings, Crucifixion and resurrection, as well as the institution of His church…so it goes both ways…

 

[arthra]

Baha’i Faith is the same as all that come under the umbrella of the New Age and they are known by their fruits…which is hatred for Catholicism. Which fruit of the Holy Spirit is this? Okay…then check out www.christiananswersforthenewage.org

Thanks for your post Jewells!

If check into this a little further you’ll find I think no relationship historically between the beginnings of the Baha’i Faith that goes back to the mid nineteenth century and the “new age” movement of say the twentieth century…

also we Baha’is bear no animosity or hatred toward Catholicism…

No literature or pamphlets or internet sites attacking Catholicism.

We often have worked with Catholics on inter-faith forums locally and internationally…

 

[katgee]

I as well affirm the good that the Baha’i Fatih promotes…

 

[BHTech]

Well Bhtech thanks for your reply…

You know that I think without a historical perspective it would be hard to understand the concept of progressive revelation.

The Baha’i view is that we are now or have been at another historical and social crossroad and it is the challenge of world unity and the oneness of humanity… If we can achieve it we will survive…and if we can’t then we will have greater misery and deprivation. This is the historical basis or need for the principles of Baha’ullah that are unique to this day and time…

Dear Artha,

Thanks again for your short summary of the Bahai view of things. In my opinion is is still not acceptable because your religion is man made and is a feel good religion. Where is salvation? Where is redemption? While you strive for good things, world unity etc its premise that each epoch in time, Jesus, Mohammed etc is progressive towards the Bhai epoch is flawed because their beliefs CONTRADICT each other. It is not sufficient to say that these contradictions are minor and can be easily dismissed with a wave of the hand. No Bahai to date has addressed this fundamental point. It is at the core of each belief system and they go against each other. A religion that grew out of Islam which in of itself is a heresy of Catholicism cannot be an improvement of even the parent it came from if that parent is heretical. In that regard it is no different from Protestantism.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[Jerusha]

I disagree with your comment:

A religion that grew out of Islam which in of itself is a heresy of Catholicism cannot be an improvement of even the parent it came from if that parent is heretical.

If it, through its tolerance, functions as a bridge between that parent and Catholicism, we have no right to condemn it. Think about it. The biggest problem is those who go against Jesus’ social gospel.

 

[BHTech]

I disagree with your comment: If it, through its tolerance, functions as a bridge between that parent and Catholicism, we have no right to condemn it. Think about it. The biggest problem is those who go against Jesus’ social gospel.

I in turn have to disagree with you. Tolerance is not a virtue, never has been and will never be. A woman should never be tolerant of an abusive husband to use an analogy. I stated the Bahai have good things going for it. There will be some truth in most religions but I was merely making the point as I have repeatedly said to other Bahais in the past, that their religion violates the simple law of noncontradiction. I am stating its obvious flaws to those who wish to see that. I’m not condemning it, but I am stating the obvious. As to acting as a bridge between Catholicism and its parent Islam, I highly doubt this given the radical carnal nature of the parent. Tolerance will not get the Bahais anywhere since they are hated by their parent. Only the blessed Mother can make that bridge as ArchBishop Fulton Sheen pointed out IMHO.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[planten]

Planten,

One more remark…you say to keep Islam out…it does draw me in when it brings up Christ. Your understanding draws on parts from the Bible…Mohammed had contacts with Catholics and Jews…and I think by now you know of the Liturgy of the Hours where those who practice it in religious houses pray numerous times during the day…but Mohammed’s new way of explaining Christ contradicts His life, teachings, Crucifixion and resurrection, as well as the institution of His church…so it goes both ways…

katgee, Muhammad admitted Jesus as a great prophet ( not as god). Muhammad admired the mother of Jesus and the apostles of Jesus. Muhammad agreed that Jesus suffered on the cross, but did not die on the cross because that would be bad for Jesus, Death on cross is for cursed persons. In a way, Muhamamd knew everything that Happened to jesus.

 

[Jerusha]

Only the blessed Mother can make that bridge as ArchBishop Fulton Sheen pointed out IMHO.

And there are many things we don’t know.

 

[BHTech]

And there are many things we don’t know.

True, I take no issue with you there. We don’t know if we will be around tomorrow, but we can pray and hope we will be. From what I have read however, I am hopeful that long after we are gone ArchBishop Sheen prediction will come true given the way this world is heading.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[arthra]

Bhtech,

While Baha’i Faith may be said to have historically grown out of Shiah Islam not so unlike the way Christianity emerged from Judaism I don’t think it can properly be called “heretical”. Usually “heresy” is a term used for those who may claim to be Christian and are baptized as such…

The definition I cam across goes like this:

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
**b. **Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.

It’s from Middle English:

[Middle English heresie, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, a choosing, faction, from haireisthai, to choose, middle voice of hairein, to take.]

Considering this definition there would also be no way Islam could be considered a heresy of Catholicism as you wrote:

“Islam which in of itself is a heresy of Catholicism”

Had early Mulsims been Catholics and strove to change say the doctrines of the church you might have some rational support.

Since many early Baha’is were formerly Muslims the charge was levelled against them as “apostacy” and this charge carries with it for some a death penalty.

Being charged with heresy or apostacy though is an interesting issue…

Would you say

(1) the early disciples could be charged with heresy or apostacy by the religious establishment of Jesus day?

(2) Wasn’t Jesus Himself charged with blaspheming by the Sanhedrin? See Matthew 26:65.

 

[DavidMark]

BHTech: I think the source for your quote is Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[DavidMark]

“It is not sufficient to say that these contradictions are minor and can be easily dismissed with a wave of the hand.”

Catholics do this all the time. If we get started on that, Mother Mary and Christ Himself will weep from the exposé of contradictions to the guidance He gave.
Baha’is are not leading astray. They are attempting to guide all back to the original.
What Baha’is are saying is that the prophecies are fulfilled, this is the Day, and celebrate the Lord’s Advent. Those who do not want to, don’t have to. We won’t and can’t make them. But you will have been informed and joined the ranks of the "rejectors"who try to confound the believers in every age, those “reflectors” who rather try to found new institutions based on the commands of the Lord of the Age.

What amuses me about Mateo’s original post is that he is asking Catholics about Baha’i!

Would ye ask the Jews whether Jesus was the True One from God, or the idols if Muhammad was an Apostle of His Lord, or inquire from the people of the Qur’án as to Him Who was the Remembrance of God, the Most Exalted, the Most Great?
(Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 42)

 

[BHTech]

Bhtech,

While Baha’i Faith may be said to have historically grown out of Shiah Islam not so unlike the way Christianity emerged from Judaism I don’t think it can properly be called “heretical”. Usually “heresy” is a term used for those who may claim to be Christian and are baptized as such…

The definition I cam across goes like this:

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
**b. **Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.

It’s from Middle English:

[Middle English heresie

, from Old French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, a choosing, faction, from haireisthai, to choose, middle voice of hairein, to take.]

Considering this definition there would also be no way Islam could be considered a heresy of Catholicism as you wrote:

“Islam which in of itself is a heresy of Catholicism”
…

Hi Artha

I’ll take your points one by one. First by the definition you have looked up of the word “heresy” I quote what you have written, “An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.”. Catholicism and Christianity says that God is a Trinity. Islam denies that God is a Trinity. Catholicism says Jesus is God, Islam denies it, etc. That denial constitutes a doctrine that is at variance from the established belief of Catholicism which came 600 years before Islam and not the other way around.

Given that anyone who has seriously studied the origins of Islam would have recognized that Mohammed took much of his teachings from Syriac Christians and Gnostics around that region to form the basis of his religion, it is fair to say as Hillare Belloc pointed out in the “The Great heresies” that Islam is a heresy of Catholicism that strips away redemption, salvation, the priesthood, sacraments, etc, etc. I did not make it up, but it makes perfect sense. If you get a chance read Hillare Belloc book, “The Great Heresies” .

If a Christian from another denomination would deny that Jesus is God or God is a Trinity I would classify them as a heretic since their belief is contrary to established dogma. Given Bahai came out of Islam and you deny the Trinity, Jesus is God, sacraments, redemption etc, etc, it follows it too is heretical and I do not deny the good in the Bahai religion nor that of Islam. Note I do not claim that Bahai has been derived from Catholicism, but is simply a derivative of Islam or a sect.

Would you say

(1) the early disciples could be charged with heresy or apostacy by the religious establishment of Jesus day?

(2) Wasn’t Jesus Himself charged with blaspheming by the Sanhedrin? See Matthew 26:65

A1. No. Catholicism came after Pentecost. Heresy is a late term. I would say you should ask yourself the question of the two bodies involved, Jesus versus the religious establishment, who taught the correct message of God. Who claimed to be God? If your answer is Jesus then the religious establishment was in error with their strict rules, false piety and false teachings.

A2. Being charged with blasphemy does not mean that he [Jesus] was wrong. It just means the Sanhedrin were blind. Their intellect was darkened back then and even to this day to many people even so called professing Christians. Many innocent people are wrongly convicted. “Which of you can convict me of sin” . “If I have done something wrong why do you strike me”, he said. When you read scripture what wrong did Jesus do? Scripture tells us “he came to his own and his own knew him not”. I could go on and on but hopefully you get my point.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[BHTech]

Catholics do this all the time. If we get started on that, Mother Mary and Christ Himself will weep from the exposé of contradictions to the guidance He gave.

Do you know what Mary and Jesus said? Were you or your Bab present?

Baha’is are not leading astray. They are attempting to guide all back to the original.

What Baha’is are saying is that the prophecies are fulfilled, this is the Day, and celebrate the Lord’s Advent.

Catholics reject this teaching because Jesus claimed to be the way to God. His resurrection is real and scripture testifies to it. Scripture tells us that even if an Angel brings another Gospel do not believe. It tells us there will be false antichrists and many will claim to be Jesus. IMHO yours is a false message even though I respect you the individual.

Those who do not want to, don’t have to. We won’t and can’t make them. But you will have been informed and joined the ranks of the "rejectors"who try to confound the believers in every age, those “reflectors” who rather try to found new institutions based on the commands of the Lord of the Age.

I will take my chances with Jesus at my judgement and my advice is you should ask yourself if you Bab or your leader can save you.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[BHTech]

BHTech: I think the source for your quote is Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Thank you, you are correct. Phillipians 4:13 is a quote from Isiah but I have the wrong numbering. I will correct it, but thank you.

God Bless

Bhtech

 

[DavidMark]

Miracles
I would like to start a new direction in the discussion of the relevancy of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb to all previous Faiths. It is common in all relgions to relate miracles associated with the particular Founders. Christianity seems to be miracles from beginning to end, whereas the Qur’án and the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb are considered to be their own miracle. This is what the Báb says:
In this Day, radiant acquiesence, in all its forms, is confirmed for the one who is content with the revelation of verses by God, without the slightest desire for any other proof besides them. Were any man to be adorned with all spiritual virtues in utmost contentment in all the worlds, and yet assert in this Day that his heart is not utterly satisfied with the revelation of verses in the absence of witnessing miracles, then all his acquiesence would be brought to naught in the Book of God, and no other mode of resignation would be of any profit to him. (Provisional translation, quoted in Nader Saedi’s Gate of the Heart, p. 307)

That is why it is vital to our spiritual lives to be cautious when investigating spiritual claims. Instead of immediately spouting off what we think to be the absolute truth, we should do as Christ commanded, and seek, ask, pray diligantly and test the spirits. and the “fruits” of the new teaching. If they pass the requirements, we have no recourse but to submit to their superiority. Because all verses from God are superior to us as individuals. They are the expressions of the Word. We are like letters, which have no intrinsic meaning by themselves, unless they are part of a mutually agreed upon word.

When this is done, then the numerical prophecies and social teachings make sense, and we can dedicate our lives to the service of the Kingdom in good conscience.