The Baptism of Jesus

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_Dude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dave, all the way through this thread you have been presented with plain evidence that Catholics not only read their bibles, but use Scripture to explain Catholic doctrines that are obviously based on Scripture. You, however, have chosen not to pay any attention to this because, simply, the evidence contradicts what you want to believe.
 
Church Militant:
All the Non-Catholic churches I went to “read around” all the obviously Catholic parts of the NT and never preached about them. I’d read arouund them too, because they are so clear and at that time I didn’t have the guts to question, because I’d just get the same old rhetorical answers that I see on here…get told I’m a heretic…goin’ to hell…and all the rest.
My wife who was brought up in a Fundamentalist household has had amazingly similar experiences. She would question her parents about things she read in Scripture that didn’t jive with what they were teaching her. The common response was “you don’t have faith.” At one point, they even had her go through an “exorcism” that was so traumatic that it caused her to vomit at the time, and caused her to have nightmares even to this day. She was actually scared of religion when I first met her, and she was utterly amazed that Catholics she met actually thought her questions were good things, and she was even more surprised when her questions about Scripture were answered!
 
40.png
oudave:
I cannot take communion in your church, why?. I have asked the Lord into my heart, been baptized and he has blessed me and my family in so many ways. You can take communion in my church . . .
Actually, from a Catholic perspective I cannot receive Communion in your church because you do not have the Christ-given Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.
I do not intend this to sound mean but it seems that if you dont belong the church country club, you cant take part.
In Him, Dave http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
Ah. This is a result of denominational thinking. The idea that this is a “club” and if you pay your dues you can come in. But your dues have been paid by the blood of Christ.

Besides you do not WANT to come into the Church. You are content in a denomination with an immaterial definition of “church.” That is why you do not have (nor would you accept) Sacraments in the sense that the Catholic Church has them. Your immaterial church images a Jesus without a physical body; the possibility that matter can become sacred by the divine indwelling is alien to you: no real transmission of grace in Baptism: no real Presence in the Eucharist.

For Catholics, just as Jesus had a physical body, so has his Church. Once you have reached this conclusion, then it remains to find where that Church is. It is no secret.
 
40.png
mercygate:
Actually, from a Catholic perspective I cannot receive Communion in your church because you do not have the Christ-given Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.

Ah. This is a result of denominational thinking. The idea that this is a “club” and if you pay your dues you can come in. But your dues have been paid by the blood of Christ.

Besides you do not WANT to come into the Church. You are content in a denomination with an immaterial definition of “church.” That is why you do not have (nor would you accept) Sacraments in the sense that the Catholic Church has them. Your immaterial church images a Jesus without a physical body; the possibility that matter can become sacred by the divine indwelling is alien to you: no real transmission of grace in Baptism: no real Presence in the Eucharist.

For Catholics, just as Jesus had a physical body, so has his Church. Once you have reached this conclusion, then it remains to find where that Church is. It is no secret.
I belong to a NONdenominational church. Christ is the only authority in the church. We try as hard as we can to follow the scriptures as close as we can. We DO NOT imagine Jesus without a physical body, we do understand Grace, Baptism, and Communion. The problem with tha catholic church is that it has given to much authority to it’s leaders. If the pope wants to change something, well he cant be wrong you know. So it is changed.
My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard. This is idolitry. My wife and I prayed that it would not sell. We then talked to her about removing it because it was idolitry.She agreed, we then prayed for the house to sell which it did.Didn’t open her eyes much though, she just thought it was coincedence. I also read something about a ‘‘Happy Death Indulgence’’ are you kidding me. I also read that you can say a mass for someone who is non catholic. Praying to this saint for that, another saint for this etc. This is plain and simple idolitry.
Acts 7:41
In Him, and Him only, Dave.
 
40.png
mercygate:
Actually, from a Catholic perspective I cannot receive Communion in your church because you do not have the Christ-given Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.

Ah. This is a result of denominational thinking. The idea that this is a “club” and if you pay your dues you can come in. But your dues have been paid by the blood of Christ.

Besides you do not WANT to come into the Church. You are content in a denomination with an immaterial definition of “church.” That is why you do not have (nor would you accept) Sacraments in the sense that the Catholic Church has them. Your immaterial church images a Jesus without a physical body; the possibility that matter can become sacred by the divine indwelling is alien to you: no real transmission of grace in Baptism: no real Presence in the Eucharist.

For Catholics, just as Jesus had a physical body, so has his Church. Once you have reached this conclusion, then it remains to find where that Church is. It is no secret.
I belong to a NONdenominational church. Christ is the only authority in the church. We try as hard as we can to follow the scriptures as close as we can. We DO NOT imagine Jesus without a physical body, we do understand Grace, Baptism, Communion, and that Christ payed our dues on the cross . The problem with the catholic church is that it has given too much authority to it’s leaders. If the pope wants to change something, well he cant be wrong you know. So it is changed.
My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard. This is idolitry. My wife and I prayed that it would not sell. We then talked to her about removing it because it was idolitry.She agreed, we then prayed for the house to sell, which it did.Didn’t open her eyes much though, she just thought it was coincedence. I also read something about a ‘‘Happy Death Indulgence’’ are you kidding me. I also read that you can say a mass for someone who is non catholic . Praying to this saint for that, another saint for this etc. This is plain and simple idolitry.
My wifes sister wanted to get an inulment of her first marriage
so she could remarried but she had very little money. The priest told her that it would take 6 months for it to go thru, so her brother lent her $500 to give to the church. You guessed it 5 1/2 weeks later she got it. Wonder what a grand would have got her? http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif
The bottom line here is that the catholic church has changed thru out the years, it is not the same church that it once was. How can a church be Christ centered when if follows the will of man?
The answer is easy, it cannot.

In Him, and Him only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
 
My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard
Sure he did.

:rotfl:
 
40.png
SPOKENWORD:
Will it work for getting rid of my mother in law? 😃 Just kidding ,I love my mother in law. 😉 God Bless
Try sprinkling salt around a statue of Saint Makerrun. 😃

One can love without like ;).
 
40.png
oudave:
We DO NOT imagine Jesus without a physical body, we do understand Grace, Baptism, and Communion.
I meant the Mystical Body of Christ – not the Person of Jesus. His Church. The Body of Christ is his One, holy catholic and Apostolic Church. Nondenominational? What you mean is an isolated congregation without ties to anybody else. I am 100% certain that whatever you understand about Baptism and Communion bears little resemblance to Catholic teaching.
The problem with tha catholic church is that it has given to much authority to it’s leaders. If the pope wants to change something, well he cant be wrong you know. So it is changed.
Really? Then how come people are always complaining that the Catholic Church NEVER changes anything? That Vatican 2 was just a smokescreen that left everything important untouched?
My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard.
Gimme the guy’s phone number; I want to talk to him. This is a superstitious custom that has gained popularity among uneducated people – not just Catholics, I might add. (And it isn’t St. Thomas)
This is idolitry.
I’ll give you that one!
I also read something about a ‘‘Happy Death Indulgence’’ are you kidding me.
The word “indulgence” has got you all in a lather. Nobody will argue that the abuse of the indulgence system during the Renaissance was appalling and never should have happened. But the general concept of indulgences is a holy and wholesome thing. I’m not going to go into that here because you’re not nearly ready for it, but the prayer to Jesus associated with the happy death indulgence is beautiful: “We desire you in our hour of death to be our amour by your property and presence.” (‘Property’ in this case means personal attributes in this case)
I also read that you can say a mass for someone who is non catholic.
Catholics believe the Mass is the most powerful prayer in earth or Heaven. Why would we not offer that prayer on behalf of anybody, Catholic or not?
Praying to this saint for that, another saint for this etc. This is plain and simple idolitry.
Acts 7:41
In Him, and Him only, Dave.
Dave, “praying to the saints” isn’t praying to saints as if they were God. It is no different than asking our friends to pray for us. I know Protestants believe that people in heaven have no communion with us, but Catholics believe that people in heaven are more alive than we are, that their charity is perfect, and that their perfect charity reaches both toward God and toward us. Those whom we recognize officially as “saints” have shown by their lives and by the benefits they have obtained for people after their death that they are privileged brothers and sisters in the Communion of Saints. No idolatry about it at all.
 
40.png
oudave:
I belong to a NONdenominational church.

My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard. This is idolitry. My wife and I prayed that it would not sell. We then talked to her about removing it because it was idolitry.She agreed, we then prayed for the house to sell, which it did.Didn’t open her eyes much though, she just thought it was coincedence.

My wifes sister wanted to get an inulment of her first marriage
so she could remarried but she had very little money. The priest told her that it would take 6 months for it to go thru, so her brother lent her $500 to give to the church. You guessed it 5 1/2 weeks later she got it. Wonder what a grand would have got her? http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif
The bottom line here is that the catholic church has changed thru out the years, it is not the same church that it once was.
The answer is easy, it cannot.

In Him, and Him only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
first of all I a nondemominational church IS a denomination.

that stuff about burying a statue, can i have more info? i have never heard of such a thing, though it doesnt mean it didnt happen. and taking it down? ive had this question for a time, what does constitute an Idol?

now about your sisters annulment, it is none of our business why she wanted to remarry, but in the Church there are rules and roadblocks to prevent " just sign on the dotted line" divorce.

also you said that the “church is not the same as it once was.” what was it once?
 
Catholic Dude:
first of all I a nondemominational church IS a denomination.

that stuff about burying a statue, can i have more info? i have never heard of such a thing, though it doesnt mean it didnt happen. and taking it down? ive had this question for a time, what does constitute an Idol?

now about your sisters annulment, it is none of our business why she wanted to remarry, but in the Church there are rules and roadblocks to prevent " just sign on the dotted line" divorce.

also you said that the “church is not the same as it once was.” what was it once?
Nondenominational as in we don’t follow a group of churches or any religious sect, We believe the only authority in the church is the word of God. I ask my wife and she said that the statue was that of St Joseph, ask your priest about it he will likely know.
Idols or Idolitry is putting anything before God, or worshipping anybody other than God. Thinking that a statue will help you sell your house is not trusting God to help it sell. If you put your job ahead doing what is right, that is idolitry. An idol could even be a rabbit’s foot, a charm or statue.

As far as the divorce, her husband is a alcoholic and abused her.
He is the one who filed for divorce.

When it comes to the catholic church I have no problem with it being the first church, although throughout the history of the catholic church the leaders have added and taken away so many things that it isn’t the same church. Let me put it this way, if you have to write a book other than the Bible explaining what you believe and how you should answer a certain question from a non catholic, then something is wrong. I have a very simple way of looking at Christianity, I love the Lord with every ounce of energy I have, if the Bible says do it, I do it, if the Bible says don’t do it, I don’t.
Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
40.png
oudave:
Nondenominational as in we don’t follow a group of churches or any religious sect, We believe the only authority in the church is the word of God. I ask my wife and she said that the statue was that of St Joseph, ask your priest about it he will likely know.
That’s really impossible. You would not be able to follow anything of faith without having someone else’s religion in front of you.
Idols or Idolitry is putting anything before God, or worshipping anybody other than God.
That’s true, your misconception is in telling the difference betwen something before God and something in front of us pointing to Him.
When it comes to the catholic church I have no problem with it being the first church, although throughout the history of the catholic church the leaders have added and taken away so many things that it isn’t the same church.
One of the most important realities on earth that distinguishes the People of God from any other people is that they have a tradition that is traced all the way back to Adam.
Let me put it this way, if you have to write a book other than the Bible explaining what you believe and how you should answer a certain question from a non catholic, then something is wrong.
I don’t understand how that could be wrong, unless you think intelligence is the measure of holiness.
I have a very simple way of looking at Christianity, I love the Lord with every ounce of energy I have, if the Bible says do it, I do it, if the Bible says don’t do it, I don’t.
Dave.
I agree that the Gospel message is simple but I don’t think you are appreciating the complexity of man.
 
burying st joseph in your front yard to sell your house isn’t idolatry. idolatry means worshiping an idol. there isn’t any worship involved.

superstitious, perhaps. effective, perhaps. idolatry?

no.

you said ‘Thinking that a statue will help you sell your house is not trusting God to help it sell’

so if you trust your real estate agent to help you sell your house, your idolizing him?

this isn’t worship. this isn’t idolatry. i-d-o-l-a-t-r-y.
 
The Word “Baptism” used to mean completely immersed. When ships were baptized this meant they were sunk, (completely immersed). I do not think that Jesus was sprinkled. John baptized in a river so that immersion could take place. One of the purposes of baptism is to cleanse oneself of sin, wash away the old, put on the new, etc. There is a symbolism in the ordinance of baptism. If one is sprinkled then this symbolism is not realized. If the Catholic Church changed the ordinance of baptism from immersion to include sprinkling for convenience or any other reason, then they (the Church) would have to get permission from God through revelation. Was there a revelation from God that changed this ordinance to include sprinkling.
 
40.png
oudave:
I find it amazing that when a person puts his faith in the written word of God that someone would actualy call it heresy., I guess thats what happens when you put your faith in men.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but a reply is in order.

Dave, a heresy is an incorrect doctrine. *Sola Scripture, *as a doctrine, is incorrect and thus heresy. I said absolutely nothing about putting one’s trust in the written Word of God being heresy (in fact I absolutely and completely do so).

Now using the Scriptures as the sole rule of faith is heretical. The main proof of this is that the Bible as we know it did not exist for nearly 4 centuries after the Resurrection of Our Lord. What were the poor Christians of that time to do without a Bible to allow them to “search the Scriptures”? They relied on the teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors as their rule of faith. This is what is termed Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium. For Catholics, all three form the rule of faith, as it has been since the beginning of Christianity.

In order for the novel doctrine of *Sola Scriptura *to be true, you must be able to demonstrate that once the canon of the Bible was finally decided upon (by the Catholic Church), the oral tradition and teaching authority of the successors of the Apostles was somehow abrogated.

Unfortunately for you, that abrogation never happened. The doctrine of “Scripture alone” is thus in opposition to Christianity as created by Christ, and taught by his Apostles. That is precisely why I refer to it as heresy.

You may return to the previously scheduled discussion…😃
 
40.png
LDSBOB:
The Word “Baptism” used to mean completely immersed. When ships were baptized this meant they were sunk, (completely immersed). I do not think that Jesus was sprinkled. John baptized in a river so that immersion could take place. One of the purposes of baptism is to cleanse oneself of sin, wash away the old, put on the new, etc. There is a symbolism in the ordinance of baptism. If one is sprinkled then this symbolism is not realized. If the Catholic Church changed the ordinance of baptism from immersion to include sprinkling for convenience or any other reason, then they (the Church) would have to get permission from God through revelation. Was there a revelation from God that changed this ordinance to include sprinkling.
In the early Church when there were members still alive who had heard his voice utter the Word baptism, it’s meaning was known in a way that is less common today. John the baptist had in fact revealed the nature of baptism before Jesus started his public ministry. Everyone who came to be baptised by John knew that they were recieving something unseen but real that changed them. Jesus said when asked about John,“he is a perfect pattern of righteousness.” When a human life is a pattern of perfection the Holy Spirit, who’s very person expresses union, finds a resource to unite all humanity. He also finds in it his own image again and rests there. This pattern is what we are ‘drowned’ in. The image of perfection the image of God. The water is a matter of right faith a sign. The pattern of life that the Holy Spirit unites us to is as real as real can be.
 
40.png
oudave:
Nondenominational as in we don’t follow a group of churches or any religious sect, We believe the only authority in the church is the word of God. I ask my wife and she said that the statue was that of St Joseph, ask your priest about it he will likely know.
First of all, it’s Saint Anthony of Padua. Second, such practices are superstition is roundly rejected by the teaching authority of the Church. If a priest did tell anyone to do this, they are acting sinfully.
40.png
oudave:
Idols or Idolitry is putting anything before God, or worshipping anybody other than God.
Catholics do not do any of those things.
40.png
oudave:
Thinking that a statue will help you sell your house is not trusting God to help it sell. If you put your job ahead doing what is right, that is idolitry. An idol could even be a rabbit’s foot, a charm or statue.
Quite agree. The Catholic Church, however, does not teach this about statues or any other material object.
40.png
oudave:
When it comes to the catholic church I have no problem with it being the first church
No, but apparently you have a problem with Jesus’ words: …and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it (Matt 16:18).
40.png
oudave:
although throughout the history of the catholic church the leaders have added and taken away so many things that it isn’t the same church.
How many times are you anti-Catholics going to say this? Every time you mention something specific, you are presented with a plethora of Scriptural evidence and evidence from the Church Fathers. Then you turn around and make this same general statement again. You are willfully ignoring the Scriptural and historical evidence to remain safe and sound with your preconceived prejudices and assumptions.
40.png
oudave:
Let me put it this way, if you have to write a book other than the Bible explaining what you believe and how you should answer a certain question from a non catholic, then something is wrong.
Let me put it this way, that that’s true then its equally true that if you have to write post after post explaining what you believe on an internet forum, there is something wrong. If you have to have thousands of different denominations with more new ones showing up everyday to fit the thousands and thousands of different and contradictory interpretations of the bible, then there is something wrong.
 
40.png
LDSBOB:
The Word “Baptism” used to mean completely immersed. When ships were baptized this meant they were sunk, (completely immersed). I do not think that Jesus was sprinkled. John baptized in a river so that immersion could take place. One of the purposes of baptism is to cleanse oneself of sin, wash away the old, put on the new, etc. There is a symbolism in the ordinance of baptism. If one is sprinkled then this symbolism is not realized. If the Catholic Church changed the ordinance of baptism from immersion to include sprinkling for convenience or any other reason, then they (the Church) would have to get permission from God through revelation. Was there a revelation from God that changed this ordinance to include sprinkling.
I’ll say it again. I had no idea that the Catholic Church had started baptism by “sprinkling.”
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Because the practice of Baptism has it’s roots in Jewish practice of ritual washing, but not as we know it as a Sacrament.
This link explains the connection between the Jewish mikvah bath and John’s baptism:

The Jewish Roots of BaptismQ: I have always taught baptism was identification with Jesus’ death, burial & resurrection, but at the same time, always wondered about 1 Cor. 10:2 about Israel being baptized into the cloud & Moses. I also could never figure out why the Jews were not surprised when John the Baptist came preaching a “baptism of repentance”. What I mean is, the Jews acted like water baptism was something they were very familiar with & had no qualms submitting to it. Something tells me they were very familiar with water baptism prior to John’s ministry but I don’t know what?!

**A: ** You are right that water baptism has a history with the Jews. It comes from the practice of ritual cleansing from the kinds of impurities mentioned in Lev. 15. In Jesus’ day, this had been formalized into the practice of ritual immersion in a “mikvah” bath …(see article for more detail)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top