The Baptism of Jesus

[Benadam]

LDSBOB:

I do not think that Jesus was sprinkled.

I just don’t understand what would be different if He did.

.John baptized in a river so that immersion could take place.

What does it change about the baptism if it’s not done in a river?

One of the purposes of baptism is to cleanse oneself of sin, wash away the old, put on the new, etc.

If you can just tell me how it does that.

There is a symbolism in the ordinance of baptism.

you say that as if there is something else about it to.

If one is sprinkled then this symbolism is not realized.

/ Listen to what you just said ;“the symbol is not realized” you see, you do believe it’s more tha a symbol, underneath it all your intellect has caught it , your reason has understood ,and it has sifted through your heart and those words waft in the breeze, just look.

If the Catholic Church changed the ordinance of baptism from immersion to include sprinkling for convenience or any other reason, then they (the Church) would have to get permission from God through revelation.

Yeah, you’r right about that.

Was there a revelation from God that changed this ordinance to include sprinkling.

oh heck no, we never got a revelation on the ordinance of baptism.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

that was some good stuff Matt1618

LDSBOB:

Was there a revelation from God that changed this ordinance to include sprinkling.

What is your definition of revelation? do you mean a one time now and forever or change of “original” teaching?

 

[Benadam]

Matt16_18:

This link explains the connection between the Jewish mikvah bath and John’s baptism:

The Jewish Roots of BaptismQ: I have always taught baptism was identification with Jesus’ death, burial & resurrection, but at the same time, always wondered about 1 Cor. 10:2 about Israel being baptized into the cloud & Moses. I also could never figure out why the Jews were not surprised when John the Baptist came preaching a “baptism of repentance”. What I mean is, the Jews acted like water baptism was something they were very familiar with & had no qualms submitting to it. Something tells me they were very familiar with water baptism prior to John’s ministry but I don’t know what?!

**A: **You are right that water baptism has a history with the Jews. It comes from the practice of ritual cleansing from the kinds of impurities mentioned in Lev. 15. In Jesus’ day, this had been formalized into the practice of ritual immersion in a “mikvah” bath …(see article for more detail)

The Essenes are said to have bapized with water as a ritual cleansing. Somehow I think it possible , likely even, that the metaphysical reality of baptism was experienced and at least in part understood before the rites attached to it developed.

Wondering what a Jewish view of that thought would bring to light.

 

[Matt16_18]

Benadam:

The Essenes are said to have bapized with water as a ritual cleansing. Somehow I think it possible , likely even, that the metaphysical reality of baptism was experienced and at least in part understood before the rites attached to it developed.

The Essene community at Qumran is very close in proximity to the traditional site of Jesus’ baptism in the river Jordan. This link has a picture of the mikvah bath that was in use at Qumran during the time of Jesus: Miqveh at Qumran

Wondering what a Jewish view of that thought would bring to light.

To the ancient Jews, both Essene and non-Essene, the mikveh was a process of spiritual purification and cleansing, especially in relation to the various types of Turmah or ritual defilement when the Temple was in use.

Immersion was so important among the Pharisees that it occurred before the high Priest conducted the service on the Day of Atonement …

Mystical Mikveh Immersion
The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism by Ron Moseley, Ph. D.

Interesting, is it not? The high priest of the Temple had to be ritually cleansed by immersion in a Mikveh bath located at the Temple before he could offer the sacrifice for the atonement of sin.

The lambs that were offered as sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem were also immersed in water and cleansed in the sheep pool before they were offered as sacrifices.

To the north of the Temple there were three rock-hewn cisterns or open pools. One is a sheep pool where lambs and rams were taken, through the city Sheep Gate to be washed before sacrificed in the Temple (Neh.3:1).
The Heavenly Source of Everlasting Waters

Jesus is both the high priest that offers the atoning sacrifice for sin, and the lamb of sacrifice that is offered to God. In the OT, both the high priest and the sacrificial offering had to be “baptized” before the atoning sacrifice could be offered on the Day of Atonement.

 

[mayra_hart]

i been doing a bible study by scott hahn an one thing about it it has draw me closer to the catholic church than i have ever been. an the funny thing about it is that scott hahn is a ex-- fundamentalist.

 

[Church_Militant]

oudave:

I belong to a NONdenominational church. Christ is the only authority in the church. We try as hard as we can to follow the scriptures as close as we can. We DO NOT imagine Jesus without a physical body, we do understand Grace, Baptism, and Communion. The problem with tha catholic church is that it has given to much authority to it’s leaders. If the pope wants to change something, well he cant be wrong you know. So it is changed.
My wifes mother wanted to sell her house so her priest told her to bury a statue of St Thomas or some other saint in her back yard. This is idolitry. My wife and I prayed that it would not sell. We then talked to her about removing it because it was idolitry.She agreed, we then prayed for the house to sell which it did.Didn’t open her eyes much though, she just thought it was coincedence. I also read something about a ‘‘Happy Death Indulgence’’ are you kidding me. I also read that you can say a mass for someone who is non catholic. Praying to this saint for that, another saint for this etc. This is plain and simple idolitry.
Acts 7:41
In Him, and Him only, Dave.

Garbage! Dave…IDOLATRY is giving worship to some creature or thing other than God. THIS ia NOT Idolatry, since it is a form of intercessory prayer and in no way diminshes the Almighty. Do you worship the people that you ask to pray for you or others? You TOTALLY MIS-interpret the whole thing because you never bothered to even ASK one of us such things are all about.

 

[Church_Militant]

The bottom line here is that the catholic church has changed thru out the years, it is not the same church that it once was. How can a church be Christ centered when if follows the will of man?
The answer is easy, it cannot.

Speaking of the will of man…just who decides what is correct doctrine in your little band of believers? It sure won’t be the Holy Spirit. What’ll happen to you if you go in one day and say that you don’t agree with them about some aspect of what they teach? Who’ll decide what is right? What if they followed Shepherd’s Chapel and said that there were multiple creations and that the sin in the garden was Eve having sex w/the snake? But your pastor says that the Holy Spirit showed him all this and he can support it all with word studies from his Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and his KJV?

Don’t laugh…this is exactly what I’ve personally seen happen.

As for the Catholic Church changing…so what? So has EVERY single non-Catholic church out there. In fact, I bet if you asked around your church leaders you’d find that their doctrines have changed just since they began, especially after a change of pastors, which is substantially less than the 2,000 years of the history of Catholicism. Yeah…we change …as we come to better understand the Bible and the teachings of the early church. Also since the early church didn’t have the drugs, abortion, contraception, and all the other garbage that our modern society has to deal with, Christianity has to respond. BUT… the teachings of the Catholic Church have not changed…they are the same as the early church…just better understood and defined.

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif

 

[Jehu13]

oudave:

. The problem with tha catholic church is that it has given to much authority to it’s leaders. If the pope wants to change something, well he cant be wrong you know. So it is changed

Dave,
YOu say that the Catholic Church teaches that if a Pope wants to change anything because “he cant be wrong so it is changed” ok, I will bite but can you please name the Document that you read that from which Catholic Document says that a Pope can change anything he wants. I am sorry but you are confusing us with Mormons. No Pope can change anything from scripture.So Show me what Catholic Document teaches what you state up above.Lupe

 

[mayra_hart]

hasn"t the catholic church changed its doctrine through the years? protestants often accused the catholic church of changing its doctrines, or inventing new ones. usually they are confusing church doctines with church disciplines. a doctrine is an unchangeable truth revealed by god–such as te virgin birth, while discipline is a changeable regulation-- like the priest facing the people instead of the altar during mass. the catholic church teaches there can be no new doctrines since the death of the last apostle. the apostolic deposit of faith was delivered once and for all(jude 3). the eternal truths of god must be lived out in different times, cultures, and places. church disciplines which help us live out these truths are therefore adapted as conditions in the church change.

 

[BayCityRickL]

The Baptism of Jesus is a tremendous event and I think there’s some symbolism involved.

Why did Jesus say that He had to be baptized?
Why did John say that he was unworthy to perform it?
What kind of baptism was John preaching?

As some have stated, a ritual bath was performed enroute to the Temple.

Recall that God punished mankind for sin by bringing a flood, which gave water a sign of God’s wrath and condemnation.

So, when Jesus said He had to be baptized, He was taking the sign of God’s wrath and punishment on Himself. Recall, John said that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. So, the baptism was a sign of Jesus taking that sin and condemnation on Himself.

John’s baptism was a baptism of repentence. Jesus immediately got up out of the water, because He did not have to linger in the water repenting of anything.

And, John considered himself to be unworthy to put the sign of God’s condemnation on Jesus, because he recognized who Jesus was. Jesus called John the greatest of the prophets, didn’t He? Jesus told John it had to be, Jesus had to be baptized, i.e. take on the sign of God’s wrath and condemnation.

Jesus was the ‘anointed one’ and I think this was His anointing. Only the Holy One could be anointed this way.

Immersion as a form of baptism recalled the physical deaths of sinful mankind in the flood of Noah’s time. Sprinkling with water or pouring water on the head STILL puts that sign of God’s condemnation on each of us, but the new baptism in the Holy Spirit brings us to life as a new creation. We are reborn in the Spirit.

 

[mayra_hart]

Born Again in Water Baptism

John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” The Bible always links water and baptism. Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism

 

[haole]

In Genesis, God sent His Spirit over the waters of the earth. Here God sends the Spirit over the waters and Jesus, which does raise Baptism to Sacremental level.

Paul writes: “baptism is the circumcision of Christ”, which to the Jews of the day meant that the sacrament of the covenant was now changed to Baptism, and that all could receive Baptism-not just men, and could be in the Church,ie, not to be kept outside.

Nowhere in scripture does it say a"profession of faith in Jesus" is a guarantee of salvation. And, if you follow the text in the NEw Testament about the goats and the sheep to its logical conclusion, you who mis-interpret the Bible for your own ends are to be cast down.

Anyone who knows the difference between sheep ( followers, needing a shepard to live ) and goats ( more likely to go theri own way ) realizes the  in depth meaning of this story.   

The disciples on the way to Emmaus  " hearts were burning " when Jesus related the whole of Scripture to them , but did not experience Jesus until He "broke the bread", and vanished.  If you don't "break the bread" and rely on scripture alone, Jesus will never truly be inside you as He was to them. Jesus vanishing means, " I am not with you as I was before, but here is the new way that I will be with you".