The Body of Christ And The Church

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Tunesmith said:
This is where Vatican II deviated from previously defined Papal Bulls and Councils.

Unam Sanctum 11/18/1302
“Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff”
Mortalium Amimos 1/6/1928
[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”
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Tunesmith,

I see you just joined CAF recently. So, welcome! I hope you enjoy the forums.

Really, salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is not the intended topic for this thread, There have been many threads on the issue, and there is a Catholic Answers Magazine article entitled, What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means, which will give a quick overview of the Catholic position. I would suggest starting a new thread for this topic.

I would, however, love to hear your thoughts regarding whether or not the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. 🙂

Peace and blessings,
Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
Tunesmith,
I would, however, love to hear your thoughts regarding whether or not the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. 🙂

Peace and blessings,
Anna
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There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus. That brings me to communion. These people who don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus are permitted to receive communion despite their unbelief because they grew up in that religion while those in other denominations who do believe in the resurrection are not permitted to partake because they were taught it’s only symbolic. Something’s not right about this picture.
 
Tunesmith said:
There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus. That brings me to communion. These people who don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus are permitted to receive communion despite their unbelief because they grew up in that religion while those in other denominations who do believe in the resurrection are not permitted to partake because they were taught it’s only symbolic. Something’s not right about this picture.
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Well…when do you think these confusion…this different beliefs…when did these come about? What do you think gave birth to this confusion?

And with due respect to the thread topic…start another thread…😉

Here is a link to get you started…it is a true story of how a missionary couple dealt with this confusion…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts
 
pablope said:
Well…when do you think these confusion…this different beliefs…when did these come about? What do you think gave birth to this confusion?

And with due respect to the thread topic…start another thread…😉
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This is related to the thread. I was not the first to bring communion into it.
SteveVH said:
One is part of the Body of Christ through their Baptism. If, however, one has an invalid “Eucharist” they cannot be in full communion with those that do. If one is not in full communion how can they be one?
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I understand there are many non-Catholic beliefs about the eucharist but my question is why are non-Catholics excluded from the communion table while non-believers within are not? It’s very relevant to the thread. How can they be one?
 
Tunesmith said:
I understand there are many non-Catholic beliefs about the eucharist but my question is why are non-Catholics excluded from the communion table while non-believers within are not? It’s very relevant to the thread. How can they be one?
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Non believers are at the table? Where?
 
aidanbradypop said:
Non believers are at the table? Where?
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The people who come to church on special occasions; wedding, funerals, Christmas and Easter. I grew up as a Catholic and today I have Catholic friends who do not believe in Jesus at all. They are allowed to get married in the Church; their families went through the system and are also non-believers in the resurrection.
 
Tunesmith said:
The people who come to church on special occasions; wedding, funerals, Christmas and Easter. I grew up as a Catholic and today I have Catholic friends who do not believe in Jesus at all. They are allowed to get married in the Church; their families went through the system and are also non-believers in the resurrection.
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Wouldn’t that be more on the person rather than Church? If someone is Baptized, Confirmed and First Holy Communion then falls away, it is on that person and not the Church. One cannot blame the Church for the actions of a sinner can they?
 
aidanbradypop said:
Wouldn’t that be more on the person rather than Church? If someone is Baptized, Confirmed and First Holy Communion then falls away, it is on that person and not the Church. One cannot blame the Church for the actions of a sinner can they?
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How do you know they believed and then fell away. Maybe they never believed at all. In the Old Testament they talk about those who receive circumcision but are not really Jews. We could say the same about those who are baptized.
 
Tunesmith said:
How do you know they believed and then fell away. Maybe they never believed at all. In the Old Testament they talk about those who receive circumcision but are not really Jews. We could say the same about those who are baptized.
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I still hold to my point…we cannot know the heart of another. We can only see what we see from the outside. Only God knows their heart. Agree? We still cannot judge the Church on the actions of a sinner can we?
 
aidanbradypop said:
I still hold to my point…we cannot know the heart of another. We can only see what we see from the outside. Only God knows their heart. Agree? We still cannot judge the Church on the actions of a sinner can we?
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I’m not judging the church. I’m making a broader conclusion. I’m applying the words of Jesus to every person who has ever lived.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
 
Tunesmith said:
I’m not judging the church. I’m making a broader conclusion. I’m applying the words of Jesus to every person who has ever lived.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
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I know you are not 😉
 
Tunesmith said:
There are people in every church (denomination) who are the visible church but many of them do not believe the gospel message so I would have to say the Body of Christ are the believers in the resurrection of Jesus. That brings me to communion. These people who don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus are permitted to receive communion despite their unbelief because they grew up in that religion while those in other denominations who do believe in the resurrection are not permitted to partake because they were taught it’s only symbolic. Something’s not right about this picture.
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Tunesmith,

It would be helpful if you would clarify your understanding of the “Visible Church.” There is a very interesting Catholic article, entitled, Visible vs. Invisible Church. The article gives the Evangelical definition of the Church and the Catholic definition of the Church, and notes that Catholics say Church is “visible” and “invisible.” Do you agree?

Also, keep in mind there are people who believe in the resurrection of Jesus, but do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Do you think belief in the resurrection is the only criteria for being part of the Body of Christ/Church?

Conditions for receiving Communion (such as belief or non-belief in the resurrection) is not really the topic of this thread. However, it would be an interesting discussion. So, you may want to start a new thread.

Our topic concerns whether or not the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. How do you define the Body of Christ? How do you define the Church?

I appreciate your comments. 🙂

Anna
 
Tunesmith said:
I’m not judging the church. I’m making a broader conclusion. I’m applying the words of Jesus to every person who has ever lived.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
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Tunesmith,
I don’t think any Christian on this thread would fail to apply the words of Christ to every person who has ever lived.

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
Conditions for receiving Communion (such as belief or non-belief in the resurrection) is not really the topic of this thread. However, it would be an interesting discussion. So, you may want to start a new thread.
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For me it’s relevant because I believe the Body of Christ is the Church. Any Catholic or non-Catholic who was born into their religion but does not or has not yet come to believe in the resurrection of Jesus is not a Christian and has not yet converted to Christianity whether it be Protestant or Catholic.
Our topic concerns whether or not the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. How do you define the Body of Christ? How do you define the Church?
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The Body of Christ are all believers in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I realize there are all sorts of weird sects and cults but I can’t judge each individual. I would have to get to know them and see if they are sincere. I don’t have that kind of time.😃 But if someone tells me they do not believe the gospel message then they are not in the Body of Christ at this time. I would say the Body of Christ and the Church are one (both living and those not with us any longer) but since we are on Catholic Answers Forum I should say that my definition is not a Catholic definition. This is the Catholic definition.
ewtn.com/library/encyc/p12mysti.htm
MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI (On the Mystical Body of Christ)
Pope Pius XII
Encyclical promulgated on 29 June 1943
  1. [15] Hence they err in a matter of divine truth, who imagine the Church to be invisible, intangible, a something merely “pneumatological” as they say, by which many Christian communities, though they differ from each other in their profession of faith, are united by an invisible bond.
  2. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.”[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered—so the Lord commands—as a heathen and a publican.[19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
  3. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos Jan. 6, 1928
  1. [21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
  2. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.
 
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