The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[Catholic_farmer]

Since when is “Everybody’s doing it!” a sound argument?

And if we are talking about people doing it because they HAVE to…well, that weakens the argument quite a bit.

 

[DCNBILL]

Spirits and some kinds are called evil spirits or devils.

Ok, thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes you may be right.But that does not change the case. The Gospels are in our hand and these books are not same att all

Not the same at all? Really? This would be like someone claiming that you and your brothers and sisters are lying when you tell stories of your childhood together differently. If you leave out a detail that your brother mentions, is that a lie or contradiction? :nope: It’s just a difference in emphasis or even in memory.

Moreover, are you saying that all four gospels do not mention the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus? Even Mark says, “He is risen” (cf. Mk 16:6).

So, there seems to be general agreement on MANY major (and even minor) details of the gospels.

But yes, there are differences in the gospels just as eyewitness accounts of an accident or crime may describe the incident differently. This is to be inspected…even preferred.

If all four gospels were identical, then we would suspect the authors of conspiracy and collusion. Skeptics would say that there is really only one gospel instead of four distinct eyewitnesses.

and they are not direct words from Jesus.

Oh? How do you know this? Because Jesus did not write them personally?

Jesus preached publicly for three years. Do you think that he might have preached the same basic messages in every town he visited? The audiences changed but the gospel message did not. So, I suspect that the apostles heard Jesus’ sermons more than once. Repetition improves the likelihood of remembering Jesus’ exact words accurately, doesn’t it?

Finally, are there individuals who are able to memorize the entire Qur’an? If such feats of memory are possible for Muslims, would you agree that Jews and Christians are probably able to memorize Jesus’ words and recall them accurately, also?

 

[Cheiron]

And you did not disprove what I wrote but just your thoughts!

That is simply not true. The arguments I brought forward about the Qu’ran’s wrong view about geology are things that I learned at high school. I did that for two reasons. First: Everything I said can be checked by anyone with acces to the internet or - even better - a library. Implying that I only wrote an opinion is simply false. Secondly, it’s also a theological matter: Either God knows less about the world He supposedly created than an average high school student or the Qu’ran is not the word of God, but written by scientifically ignorant people erroneously (though perhaps sincerely) claiming to have received divine revelation. I think the latter is more probable than the former. A third option is ofcourse that God deliberately gave Muhammed a false revelation because of reasons unknown to us. But such a God is not worth praying to, even if He exists.

But none of our discussion about evidence matters, because of what you said later:

Prophet Muhammad performed that miracle for some Pagans to demostrate that He was messenger of God. But pagans did not beleive although they saw the miracle by own eyes and they said “that is a certain fascination”. I cannot write orderly because of poor English and I see that make it hard. Sorry.

And the photos! I just said some Muslims take photos from NASA which show a mark of furrow which may point split by miracle of prophet. I think that is not necessary to prove miracle because ther could be many causes for that. So Qur’an say and that is enough. Again photos should not be valid to demonstrate that miracle. I just try to notice the issue.

I’m glad you admit you’re not interested in evidence and that you believe everything the Qu’ran tells you. That’s more honesty than I usually get. But you should stop saying that your holy book is compatible with science or encourages science and education, for science works with testable hypotheses and evidence. You can’t say that you believe whatever the Qu’ran tells you and also claim that the Qu’ran is science-friendly.

So, if not evidence, how could one disprove the Qu’ran?

One of the miraculous attribute of Qur’an is the literature of Qur’an. Qur’an challenge for about 1400 years to bring something like Qur’an but yet nobody could do and nobody will be able for ever! Here:

88-Say, “If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants.” Al-Isra(17)

13-Or do they say, “He invented it”? Say, “Then bring ten sūrahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.” Hud(11)

38-Or do they say [about the Prophet], “He invented it?” Say, “Then bring forth a sūrah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.” Yunus(10)

23-And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a sūrah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful.

24-But if you do not – and you will never be able to – then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. Al-Baqarah(2)

And if it has been possible so Pagans had very clever poets and man of letters but they could not bring something like Qur’an. It would be very easy if they could bring as literary parallel of Qur’an to refute Qur’an totaly. But it was impossible in that way so they decided the most difficult way to destroy Qur’an and it was the way of war. Yet they could not do that also in that way.

There are many miraculous parts of literature of Qur’an.

An essay competition ofcourse! This is, as LethalMouse already pointed out earlier, insane. Does the Qu’ran give us a definition of a surah? What is the independent standard by which we can compare the verses in the Qu’ran with the literature brought forth by other poets and writers?

In the end, this is a subjective matter. I think more beautiful, more moral and more intelligent books have been written by Greeks and Romans centuries before the Qu’ran was supposedly revealed to Muhammed, and I also think more moral, intelligent and beautiful books have been written since.

Also, writing a great poem or a good book is not miraculous. The idea of magical or miraculous books goes all the way back to ancient Egypt and the Egyptian deityThoth, the god of magic, science and literacy and learning in general. The idea that the material book is representative of its divine content and becomes a holy thing itself, is typically Egyptian. The Jews adopted this idea. Torah scrolls have to be produced by extremely stricts standards and may only be read with a yad - a kind of reading stick. This ancient belief in the magical powers of books is also expressed in court, where witnesses have the choice to swear an oath on the Bible or any other religious book. The ancient Greeks, however, never thought of the Iliad and the Odyssey as a holy book.

In any case, you’ve already stated that whatever the Qu’ran says is good enough for you. And if the Qu’ran says that it is such an outstanding, unparalleled piece of literature to the point that it must be miraculous, then you will believe that. I must point out that this ‘evidence’ is a entirely subjective and that I do not share the same feeling. To quote The Dude: It’s just your opinion, man.

 

[hasantas]

=Cheiron;13998036]That is simply not true. The arguments I brought forward about the Qu’ran’s wrong view about geology are things that I learned at high school. I did that for two reasons. First: Everything I said can be checked by anyone with acces to the internet or - even better - a library. Implying that I only wrote an opinion is simply false. Secondly, it’s also a theological matter: Either God knows less about the world He supposedly created than an average high school student or the Qu’ran is not the word of God, but written by scientifically ignorant people erroneously (though perhaps sincerely) claiming to have received divine revelation. I think the latter is more probable than the former. A third option is ofcourse that God deliberately gave Muhammed a false revelation because of reasons unknown to us. But such a God is not worth praying to, even if He exists.

But none of our discussion about evidence matters, because of what you said later:

I checked internet enough. But there is no valid theory or the last point of science cannot explain if the mountains cause or buffer quakes. But it is more usual that mountains may buffer the effects of quakes. Most of scientists think in that way. The advanced invention may answer that question.

You talk about judgement day for move of mountains but there is no such statement in verse. The verse is clear:

88-And you see the mountains, thinking them rigid, while they will pass as the passing of clouds. [It is] the work of Allah, who perfected all things. Indeed, He is Acquainted with that which you do. An-Naml(27)

Qur’an imply the movements of continental plate in that verse. And other verses point the raise of mountains during collision of two plates. And mountains fix(peg) two plates with adjunction point. And also mountains may decrease effects of earthquakes and the science will bring that to light by advanced inventions.

I’m glad you admit you’re not interested in evidence and that you believe everything the Qu’ran tells you. That’s more honesty than I usually get. But you should stop saying that your holy book is compatible with science or encourages science and education, for science works with testable hypotheses and evidence. You can’t say that you believe whatever the Qu’ran tells you and also claim that the Qu’ran is science-friendly.

So, if not evidence, how could one disprove the Qu’ran?

Qur’an is not a scientific book to disprove it through science. But Qur’an imply all kinds of sciences and indeed all sciences are laws of God and people realize and invent that laws by the time and later call it science. Qur’an is a religious book and you can disprove Qur’an by that way surrely if you could.

An essay competition ofcourse! This is, as LethalMouse already pointed out earlier, insane. Does the Qu’ran give us a definition of a surah? What is the independent standard by which we can compare the verses in the Qu’ran with the literature brought forth by other poets and writers?

In the end, this is a subjective matter. I think more beautiful, more moral and more intelligent books have been written by Greeks and Romans centuries before the Qu’ran was supposedly revealed to Muhammed, and I also think more moral, intelligent and beautiful books have been written since.

Also, writing a great poem or a good book is not miraculous. The idea of magical or miraculous books goes all the way back to ancient Egypt and the Egyptian deityThoth, the god of magic, science and literacy and learning in general. The idea that the material book is representative of its divine content and becomes a holy thing itself, is typically Egyptian. The Jews adopted this idea. Torah scrolls have to be produced by extremely stricts standards and may only be read with a yad - a kind of reading stick. This ancient belief in the magical powers of books is also expressed in court, where witnesses have the choice to swear an oath on the Bible or any other religious book. The ancient Greeks, however, never thought of the Iliad and the Odyssey as a holy book.

In any case, you’ve already stated that whatever the Qu’ran says is good enough for you. And if the Qu’ran says that it is such an outstanding, unparalleled piece of literature to the point that it must be miraculous, then you will believe that. I must point out that this ‘evidence’ is a entirely subjective and that I do not share the same feeling. To quote The Dude: It’s just your opinion, man.

Many Arabs had tried to do that but nobody achieved. And it is not about to write a good poem or writings. I said there are many miraculous parts of literature. That is not just an assert. That can be proved through language of Arabic. I just point a miracle which the eye can see. All the word of Allah(in Arabic) in Qur’an match each others as one under the other in that copy. Look at link and it is in Turkish but your eyes can see!

hayrat.com.tr/icerik/kuran-ikerim/tevafuklu-kuran-i-kerim.aspx

And other miracles of literature can be proved through Arabic language. If you want I will try to explain.

 

[hasantas]

This is the one that always gets me. We know Muhammad was given a miraculous ability to write “the greatest book”.

Why was it a miracle and how do we know?

Well because we know by the book he wrote, that he was not able to write…
…
…

Note this post, I can not write, but it is a miracle becsue I am writing it… errrr sound legit?

It seems you are very away from the issue. Every Arabs and Pagans knew that Muhammad could not read or write. Muhammad was taught by Gabriel and Muhammad memorised all verses which was revealed and Muhammad did not effort that because that was supported by God. Muhammad were used to read the verses form memorise and the writers of revelation wrote. And Muhammad was taught to read anymore after revelation!

 

[hasantas]

With all due respect, it does not impress that children are forced to read your book. Forcing someone to do something is not at all impressive.

A Christian reading the bible daily, of his or her own free will, is much more impressive to me.

To Christians, God is not out to get us. He does not seek to punish us, nor is it the responsibility of other human beings to hand out severe punishments for minor offenses against God. He is a loving Father that we run to. We kneel and ask for forgiveness, which He always grants us, as well as the grace to try harder.

When I see a Christian trying hard to follow God’s Commandments, not out of fear of punishment from God or man, but because they want to do God’s will. Now that is impressive to me.

God bless.

Children are forced… Hımmm… What about adults?

A chidren can memorise(most of Hafizs do that while they are a child) the whole Qur’an and it is about 600 papers. Is there any any other sample like Qur’an?

God had created Hell. Ofcourse God does not seek to punish but God had created Hell for unbelievers and for sinfuls, did not? And why do you seek for forgiveness?

Muslims do not obey God just because they have fears but also Musims worship God to get love and mercy of God. The acceptence(Rıza) of God is most high and Muslims try to get that. There is no just fear!

 

[JimmyDFG]

Holy Spirit was used to come to bring a new revelation. After Jesus there is no a new religion or revelation. Apostles may saw some visions but these visions are not a new revelation. Those could be divine influences which is very possible for moraly high people to get. Apostles were moraly high. I think the word spirit is used for divine influences yet I am not sure. Perhaps you can investigate. After Jesus there is one certain thing that Holy Spirit only came to prophet Muhammad.

John 19:28
After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled,Jesus said, “I thirst.

John19:30
When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.”And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

“It is finished,” which is one of Jesus’ most important statements, is translated from the single Greek word tetelestai.

When Jesus made this statement, He was saying to us all, that everything needed for our salvation has been accomplished and payed for. Our sin debt has been payed for, Roman 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

hasantas, Why would there be a need for a “new revelation”?
After what Jesus had done for us …there is no need for a new revelation. The Catholic Church or Christianity does not accept a different revelation.

Jesus said, “It is finished!” And He meant it.

 

[LethalMouse]

It seems you are very away from the issue. Every Arabs and Pagans knew that Muhammad could not read or write. Muhammad was taught by Gabriel and Muhammad memorised all verses which was revealed and Muhammad did not effort that because that was supported by God. Muhammad were used to read the verses form memorise and the writers of revelation wrote. And Muhammad was taught to read anymore after revelation!

He by known history spent years winning supporters and building an army. Even IF he was illiterate, you mean to tell me someone who rose to power and had advisors, generals etc… could not in thise years have learned to write? That he could not have had a human advisor, maybe an old man issuing plot points etc?

Now consider Abraham Lincoln was illiterate and self taught himself in short order to read and become president of the United States… He never claimed it was the result of Gabriel… yet he did exactly what Muhammad did.

Now tbh I give Islam more credence than some bc at least logically there is a claim of divine rather than some who just decided to do their own thing randomly…

But hostory and logic just don’t support the idea much, in fact far far too much of its known history and the narrative of the Qur’an actually lend to something more Abraham Lincoln and Napoleon like than divine. I am sorry, but other than its re-write of previous information, there is little in the way of pointing to the divine other than one power hungry conquerors claims of deserving an army based on what he alone saw and no one else.

The logic in the bible is it is told how true stories are told. By many people with mildly different recollections on technical details. Coming together to tell the whole story. The Quran reads much like a rslly cry to Muhammad’s army and thingd to support his plans and less like a honest telling.

If you are a up and comer climbing to power think how useful it is to come upon villages and tell them if they support your war via joining or giving money God will favor them.

Let alone using the current larger religions and combining them to claim you have their true answers and they involve giving you power and arms…

The miracle is the theory that Muhammad was dumb and ignorant and acted with God’s graces.

I however see Muhammad as a very smart man, with smart advisors. Two things that turn miracle into not.

 

[hasantas]

The Holy Spirit coming back after Jesus already established a Church is absurd to Christians. Our New Testament states clearly that there will be no new prophets. It also warns us of people coming claiming to be prophets after Jesus. That’s why we cannot agree with Muslims about Jesus. To us, He is the Son of God and we cannot accept anyone’s claim to establish a new religion, whether it’s your Muhammad 600 years later or Joseph Smith 1800 years later. We cannot accept a Muslim prophet, nor can we accept a Mormon prophet. Or a Jehovah’s Witness prophet. All of these go against what we were told in our New Testament.

Matthew 24:24-26 (which also goes on to describe the End Times)

"If anyone says to you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.
Behold, I have told it to you beforehand.
So if they say to you, ‘He is in the desert,’ do not go out there; if they say, ‘He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.*

So, while there is much that we cannot agree on, we can certainly live peacefully. We live side-by-side with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, and others who claim a prophet after Jesus. Just don’t be frustrated when you come here with absolute statements that are soundly rejected by Christians.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16.

That is explained in Qur’an:
3-Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination
4-It is not but a revelation revealed, (An-Najm)

Bible and Jesus say very clearly that there will be prophet but not prophets. Jesus warned for false prophets and unfortunately some false prophets did harm for religion of Jesus.

u can reject Islam so fearlessly

 

[hasantas]

John 19:28
After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled,Jesus said, “I thirst.

John19:30
When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.”And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

“It is finished,” which is one of Jesus’ most important statements, is translated from the single Greek word tetelestai.

When Jesus made this statement, He was saying to us all, that everything needed for our salvation has been accomplished and payed for. Our sin debt has been payed for, Roman 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

hasantas, Why would there be a need for a “new revelation”?
After what Jesus had done for us …there is no need for a new revelation. The Catholic Church or Christianity does not accept a different revelation.

Jesus said, “It is finished!” And He meant it.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16.

 

[hasantas]

Not the same at all? Really? This would be like someone claiming that you and your brothers and sisters are lying when you tell stories of your childhood together differently. If you leave out a detail that your brother mentions, is that a lie or contradiction? :nope: It’s just a difference in emphasis or even in memory.

Moreover, are you saying that all four gospels do not mention the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus? Even Mark says, “He is risen” (cf. Mk 16:6).

So, there seems to be general agreement on MANY major (and even minor) details of the gospels.

But yes, there are differences in the gospels just as eyewitness accounts of an accident or crime may describe the incident differently. This is to be inspected…even preferred.

If all four gospels were identical, then we would suspect the authors of conspiracy and collusion. Skeptics would say that there is really only one gospel instead of four distinct eyewitnesses.

Oh? How do you know this? Because Jesus did not write them personally?

Jesus preached publicly for three years. Do you think that he might have preached the same basic messages in every town he visited? The audiences changed but the gospel message did not. So, I suspect that the apostles heard Jesus’ sermons more than once. Repetition improves the likelihood of remembering Jesus’ exact words accurately, doesn’t it?

Finally, are there individuals who are able to memorize the entire Qur’an? If such feats of memory are possible for Muslims, would you agree that Jews and Christians are probably able to memorize Jesus’ words and recall them accurately, also?

I do not say the Gospels are produced without Jesus. But the text of Gospels got writen later. And that was not Holy Spirit who got Gospels writen. The writers wrote what they could remember from Jesus. I do not claim that the writers wrote wrong(there maybe some differences in details) but that was not under guidance of Holy Spirit. And it is good that Gospels explain same facts in different statements.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Many Arabs had tried to do that but nobody achieved. And it is not about to write a good poem or writings. I said there are many miraculous parts of literature. That is not just an assert. That can be proved through language of Arabic. I just point a miracle which the eye can see. All the word of Allah(in Arabic) in Qur’an match each others as one under the other in that copy. Look at link and it is in Turkish but your eyes can see!

Why is the “miracle which the eye can see” only seen in Arabic?
Why is all the word of allah only in Arabic?

IF it were a miracle wouldn’t it be seen for all to see and not only to those who speak and read Arabic?
Does allah only speak Arabic?

 

[JimmyDFG]

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16.

hasantas,

Jesus explicitly identified the Helper as the Holy Spirit: "The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you“ (John 14:26). Therefore, with all due respect, the muslim argument is already defeated. Secondly, this Helper was given to Jesus’ apostles (the “you” in John 14:16) not to Arabs living over 550 years later! It was given to those"And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning " (John 15:27; cf. Acts 1:22; Luke 1:1-2). However, muhammad was not one of Jesus’ apostles.

Thrid, Jesus said that the Helper would come in “a few days” (Acts 1:5), but muhammad did not come for almost 600 years! Since the Helper is the Holy Spirit, He did come merely 40 days later

Four, the Helper would “He will glorify me” Jesus (John 16:14). How would muhammad actually be glorifying Jesus if muhammad is the last (and the sealer) of the prophets? He really would not be “glorifying” an earlier, inferior prophet like Jesus.*

 

[MartinJordan]

hasantas,

Jesus explicitly identified the Helper as the Holy Spirit: "The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you“ (John 14:26). Therefore, with all due respect, the muslim argument is already defeated. Secondly, this Helper was given to Jesus’ apostles (the “you” in John 14:16) not to Arabs living over 550 years later! It was given to those"And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning " (John 15:27; cf. Acts 1:22; Luke 1:1-2). However, muhammad was not one of Jesus’ apostles.

Thrid, Jesus said that the Helper would come in “a few days” (Acts 1:5), but muhammad did not come for almost 600 years! Since the Helper is the Holy Spirit, He did come merely 40 days later

Four, the Helper would “He will glorify me” Jesus (John 16:14). How would muhammad actually be glorifying Jesus if muhammad is the last (and the sealer) of the prophets? He really would not be “glorifying” an earlier, inferior prophet like Jesus.*

Excellent.

As we have seen time and time again not completing Jesus’ Holy words (from other threads talking with Hasantas on these integral matters about the Holy Spirit ) shows how Islam misunderstands what it denies about Jesus.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

Why is the “miracle which the eye can see” only seen in Arabic?
Why is all the word of allah only in Arabic?

IF it were a miracle wouldn’t it be seen for all to see and not only to those who speak and read Arabic?
Does allah only speak Arabic?

The miracle is inside of originality. Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. Ofcourse God could reveal in any language but I think that is interest in wisdom of God. And also there are some miracles which can be seen in any language. For instance Qur’an foretell the future. Here two cases:

27- Certainly has Allah showed to His Messenger the vision in truth. You will surely enter al-Masjid al-Haram, if Allah wills, in safety, with your heads shaved and [hair] shortened, not fearing [anyone]. He knew what you did not know and has arranged before that a conquest near [at hand]. Al-Fath(48)

Muhammad did dream that He and Sahabas get into Mecca safely. He told that dream to Sahabas and they decided to go Mecca. They went but Pagans did not allow Muslims to come into Mecca. There had been many arguments but there was no conclusion. Hence Muslims decided came back. On the way to Medina some Muslims started to argue with prophet. They critised prophet in that way: Are you not messenger of God? And you said we will get into Mecca. But look at that we are turning back. etc.(If one of the statement would be lie so Peoples would not believe in Muhammad to be messenger of God!) Then God revealed some verses of which I quoted. In the verses God foretell that Muslims would get into Mecca safely. And before that there would be a conquest near. And that near conquest happened in one year. Muslims conquested the city of Jews Khaybar. In three years Muslims conquested Mecca without any war. In the verse it is said in safety. The foretell came true in details. The Mecca as a possibilty would not be conquested. So all asserts of Muhammad would be lie!

And other:

1- The Byzantines have been defeated

2- In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.

3- Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice Ar-Rum(30)

Byzantines were Christians and so beleivers in God. Persians were Pagans. Persians defeated Byzantines. Pagans in Mecca started to chide Muslims and they said that how Persians(Pagans) defeated Byzantines(People of Book) so in same way Pagans would defeat Muslims. But in that verse it is said that Byzantines will defeat Pagans(Persians). And it happened as like Qur’an foretell. But Byzantines were been defeated badly and nobody thought they would have a victory in such a short time.

 

[hasantas]

hasantas,

Jesus explicitly identified the Helper as the Holy Spirit: "The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you“ (John 14:26). Therefore, with all due respect, the muslim argument is already defeated. Secondly, this Helper was given to Jesus’ apostles (the “you” in John 14:16) not to Arabs living over 550 years later! It was given to those"And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning " (John 15:27; cf. Acts 1:22; Luke 1:1-2). However, muhammad was not one of Jesus’ apostles.

Thrid, Jesus said that the Helper would come in “a few days” (Acts 1:5), but muhammad did not come for almost 600 years! Since the Helper is the Holy Spirit, He did come merely 40 days later

Four, the Helper would “He will glorify me” Jesus (John 16:14). How would muhammad actually be glorifying Jesus if muhammad is the last (and the sealer) of the prophets? He really would not be “glorifying” an earlier, inferior prophet like Jesus.*

Jesus talked about another comforter. Holy Spirit was almost came before Jesus and Holy Spirit was always with Jesus. We should understand another comforter like Jesus. Jesus was % 100 human so the another comforter must be % 100 human. Holy Spirit cannot be that. But that is true that Holy Spirit will be sent again. Jesus wanted that from Father. And Father accepted that and sent Holy Spirit to Muhammad.

And Jesus just not talk about very short time after Him. His statements interest in untill the last times of the world. In that verses Jesus said you will see me. But we know that Jesus will come back in the last times of the world.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. John 14

Then when Jesus said you will see me so He implied the believers. Yes only believers will know Jesus through the faith.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14

In that verses Jesus say comforter will live among you as human(for he dwelleth with you) and no other comforter will come because he will abide with you for ever. No any other prophet will come until the judgement day after Muhammad.

Muhammad(God through Muhammad) glorified Jesus:

45-
Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].

003.046
Sahih International: He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

003.047
Sahih International: She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.

003.048
Sahih International: And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

003.049
Sahih International: And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

003.050
Sahih International: And * confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

003.051
Sahih International: Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

003.052
Sahih International: But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, “Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah?” The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

003.053
Sahih International: Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger [Jesus], so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

003.054
Sahih International: And they * planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

003.055
Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. al-Imran(3)***

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus talked about another comforter. Holy Spirit was almost came before Jesus and Holy Spirit was always with Jesus. We should understand another comforter like Jesus. Jesus was % 100 human so the another comforter must be % 100 human. Holy Spirit cannot be that. But that is true that Holy Spirit will be sent again. Jesus wanted that from Father. And Father accepted that and sent Holy Spirit to Muhammad.

And Jesus just not talk about very short time after Him. His statements interest in untill the last times of the world. In that verses Jesus said you will see me. But we know that Jesus will come back in the last times of the world.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. John 14

Then when Jesus said you will see me so He implied the believers. Yes only believers will know Jesus through the faith.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14

In that verses Jesus say comforter will live among you as human(for he dwelleth with you) and no other comforter will come because he will abide with you for ever. No any other prophet will come until the judgement day after Muhammad.

Muhammad(God through Muhammad) glorified Jesus:

45-
Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].

003.046
Sahih International: He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

003.047
Sahih International: She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.

003.048
Sahih International: And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

003.049
Sahih International: And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

003.050
Sahih International: And * confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

003.051
Sahih International: Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

003.052
Sahih International: But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, “Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah?” The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

003.053
Sahih International: Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger [Jesus], so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

003.054
Sahih International: And they * planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

003.055
Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. al-Imran(3)***

You’re still skipping so many words by Jesus. Maybe it’s time time to make this an official complaint as this tactic of skipping verses is quite tiresome. Jesus will not be mocked like this .

John 14 does not begin from verse 18. You need to read before that. Let Jesus speak fully… For the sake of good order and the Love of God!

Peace be with you.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

The miracle is inside of originality. Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. Ofcourse God could reveal in any language but I think that is interest in wisdom of God. And also there are some miracles which can be seen in any language. For instance Qur’an foretell the future. Here two cases:

27- Certainly has Allah showed to His Messenger the vision in truth. You will surely enter al-Masjid al-Haram, if Allah wills, in safety, with your heads shaved and [hair] shortened, not fearing [anyone]. He knew what you did not know and has arranged before that a conquest near [at hand]. Al-Fath(48)

Muhammad did dream that He and Sahabas get into Mecca safely. He told that dream to Sahabas and they decided to go Mecca. They went but Pagans did not allow Muslims to come into Mecca. There had been many arguments but there was no conclusion. Hence Muslims decided came back. On the way to Medina some Muslims started to argue with prophet. They critised prophet in that way: Are you not messenger of God? And you said we will get into Mecca. But look at that we are turning back. etc.(If one of the statement would be lie so Peoples would not believe in Muhammad to be messenger of God!) Then God revealed some verses of which I quoted. In the verses God foretell that Muslims would get into Mecca safely. And before that there would be a conquest near. And that near conquest happened in one year. Muslims conquested the city of Jews Khaybar. In three years Muslims conquested Mecca without any war. In the verse it is said in safety. The foretell came true in details. The Mecca as a possibilty would not be conquested. So all asserts of Muhammad would be lie!

And other:

1- The Byzantines have been defeated

2- In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.

3- Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice Ar-Rum(30)

Byzantines were Christians and so beleivers in God. Persians were Pagans. Persians defeated Byzantines. Pagans in Mecca started to chide Muslims and they said that how Persians(Pagans) defeated Byzantines(People of Book) so in same way Pagans would defeat Muslims. But in that verse it is said that Byzantines will defeat Pagans(Persians). And it happened as like Qur’an foretell. But Byzantines were been defeated badly and nobody thought they would have a victory in such a short time.

I don’t know where you get your history from…but its a bit different from what I’ve read

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus talked about another comforter. Holy Spirit was almost came before Jesus and Holy Spirit was always with Jesus. We should understand another comforter like Jesus. Jesus was % 100 human so the another comforter must be % 100 human. Holy Spirit cannot be that. But that is true that Holy Spirit will be sent again. Jesus wanted that from Father. And Father accepted that and sent Holy Spirit to Muhammad.

And Jesus just not talk about very short time after Him. His statements interest in untill the last times of the world. In that verses Jesus said you will see me. But we know that Jesus will come back in the last times of the world.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. John 14

Then when Jesus said you will see me so He implied the believers. Yes only believers will know Jesus through the faith.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14

In that verses Jesus say comforter will live among you as human(for he dwelleth with you) and no other comforter will come because he will abide with you for ever. No any other prophet will come until the judgement day after Muhammad.

Muhammad(God through Muhammad) glorified Jesus:

45-
Sahih International: [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].

003.046
Sahih International: He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

003.047
Sahih International: She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.

003.048
Sahih International: And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

003.049
Sahih International: And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

003.050
Sahih International: And * confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

003.051
Sahih International: Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

003.052
Sahih International: But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, “Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah?” The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

003.053
Sahih International: Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger [Jesus], so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

003.054
Sahih International: And they * planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

003.055
Sahih International: [Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. al-Imran(3)***

hasantas, " Jesus was % 100 human so the another comforter must be % 100 human"
No where does it indicate that the comforter must be 100% human. Can you show me in the Bible where it gives that it will be human?

I’ll point out more indications where it is the Holy Spirit…

This “Advocate” was to abide with them “Be with you always” (John 14:16), but muhammad has been dead for over thirteen centuries!

Jesus told the disciples, “But you know it, [the Advocate]” (John 14:17), but the apostles did not know muhammad. He was not born until over 500 years later!

Jesus also told the disciples that the Advocate would be “in you” (John 14:17). How muhammad could be “in” the disciples stretches all credibility. This reference of being “in” the disciples clearly is a reference to the Holy Spirit’s role of dwelling inside believers as the context of John (John 14:16-26) and the rest of the New Testament (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) indicates.

The above comment should be so clear for you hasantas.

Jesus said that the Advocate would be sent “in My [Jesus’] name” (John 14:26). However, do muslims believe that muhammad was sent in Jesus’ name.

The Advocate whom Jesus would send would not “ He will not speak on his own” (John 16:13). However, muhammad constantly testifies of himself. For example, in surah 33:40, muhammad says of himself, “muhammad is . . . The Apostle of God, And the Seal of the Prophets.”

hasantas, Since we’re on John 14, I really think you should give John 14:6-7 an in depth look

I really don’t see muhammad glorifying Jesus in the verse you gave.

Saying “Jesus the son of Mary” is only giving half of the story.

Saying Jesus is the Son of God would be glorifying Jesus…That is something muhammad hasn’t done