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Freddy
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That I like.Rau:
I agree, and have been trying to avoid becoming psittacinistic.
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Freddy
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Hate is too strong a word. How about these two: Intensely dislike.Freddy:
Of course he can, he is a regular guy these days. He does , and has always done sporting events with the rank and file. If you do any mini iron mans, fun runs and swims in Vic and on the Surf Coast, Tony Abbott is likely to be one of your competiton.
There are quite a few high profile people visiting Pell, there is quite a lot of back and forth even with rank anf dile.
Convicted paedophile priests still get visitor , friends, ministry, and parishoners visiting them.
People either love or hate Toney Abbott, which camp are you in?
I would grudgingly buy him a beer should I meet him in a pub as he has completed an iron man triathlon. No mean feat. However, he did this while the leader of the opposition. I have done a half iron man and I have to tell you that the training just to be able to finish one is taxing. I went months when there wasn’t a time I was either on a run or doing a swim or on a bike ride or recovering from one of those. It was a huge strain physicall and mentally.
Doing a full ironman is something else again. Beyond what most people could imagine. So there was no way that he was mentally or physically on his game during the time he was training. Not remotely possible.
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FiveLinden
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If Cardinal Pell is not guilty it is of course good for friends to see him. And if he is guilty then it is maybe more important. Isolating child sex offenders from society is the opposite of what they need. And those of a mood to praise people for visiting them could maybe donate to an organisation that does, or one that helps their victims.
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FiveLinden
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‘Homo’ means ‘same’.Children are not the same as adults. Child sexual abuse is not the same as consenting sex between adults. It is not the same as non-consenting sex between adults. It is child sexual abuse.
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Rau
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Probably true in part. In other cases, those doing the covering up appear to have acted out of a misguided sense of duty to protect the church, or incredibly poor judgement/incompetence.
The Vatican issued instructions along those lines years ago.
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Rau
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I think the stats show that most child sex abuse by priests did boys (ie same sex) though I don’t know the extent of homosexuality in the set of pedophile priests. But the other distinctions you draw are of course correct.
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FiveLinden
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Here is what the Australian Royal Commission found. The extent of male adult clerical predation on girls is in itself appalling. Men taught in male institutions. Male children were the ones they had easy access to. This was an inquiry into institutional abuse, not abuse outside institutions. There is enough abuse of girls by clerics to cause very serious concern. The efforts to argue this is a ‘homosexual’ issue will fail because it is not.
“As of 31 May 2017, of the 4,029 survivors who told us during private sessions about child sexual abuse in religious institutions, 2,489 survivors (61.8 per cent) told us about abuse in Catholic institutions. The majority (73.9 per cent) were male and 25.9 per cent were female. A small number of survivors identified as gender-diverse or did not indicate their gender. The average age of victims at the time of first abuse was 10.4 years. Of the 1,489 survivors who told us about the age of the person who sexually abused them, 1,334 survivors (89.6 per cent) told us about abuse by an adult and 199 survivors (13.4 per cent) told us about abuse by a child. A small number of survivors told us about abuse by an adult and by a child. Of the 1,334 survivors who told us about sexual abuse by an adult, 96.2 per cent said they were abused by a male adult. Of the 2,413 survivors who told us about the position held by a perpetrator, 74.7 per cent told us about perpetrators who were people in religious ministry and 27.6 per cent told us about perpetrators who were teachers. Some survivors told us about more than one perpetrator”.
“As of 31 May 2017, of the 4,029 survivors who told us during private sessions about child sexual abuse in religious institutions, 2,489 survivors (61.8 per cent) told us about abuse in Catholic institutions. The majority (73.9 per cent) were male and 25.9 per cent were female. A small number of survivors identified as gender-diverse or did not indicate their gender. The average age of victims at the time of first abuse was 10.4 years. Of the 1,489 survivors who told us about the age of the person who sexually abused them, 1,334 survivors (89.6 per cent) told us about abuse by an adult and 199 survivors (13.4 per cent) told us about abuse by a child. A small number of survivors told us about abuse by an adult and by a child. Of the 1,334 survivors who told us about sexual abuse by an adult, 96.2 per cent said they were abused by a male adult. Of the 2,413 survivors who told us about the position held by a perpetrator, 74.7 per cent told us about perpetrators who were people in religious ministry and 27.6 per cent told us about perpetrators who were teachers. Some survivors told us about more than one perpetrator”.
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Rau
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I assume you refer to the earlier post by HvonB. I agree he makes assertions with little to no foundation. I don’t think the stats you’ve quoted make any case one way or the other. [Religious brothers have access to boys more typically, religious sisters to both and perhaps more to girls. Priests - I’m not sure, they are not so prevalent in schools at all. Historically, more access to boys though, Eg choirs, altar servers etc.]. While the Vatican has declared persons with a strong homosexual inclination are not to be admitted to seminaries, the reasons given are not connected with a risk of pedophilia.
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Rau
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Which stat quantifies this?
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FiveLinden
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This one…
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HarryStotle
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So, let’s be clear, these were all allegations, correct? Reports by “survivors” that were determined to be so by compelling evidence in a court of law, or purely by autonomous or anonymous report to a commission? How were the reports screened for reliability or veracity? No attempt made? Purely as #MeToo allegations?
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Rau
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Is a religious school a religious institution? Certainly its teachers are mostly not clerics. So I don’t know if we have a number for ”Male cleric abuse of girls”.
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Rau
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Correct. It would be foolish to imagine there is rampant false claims, though there could be some.
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FiveLinden
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The Royal Commission was extremely conservative in its findings. You should read them. The entire proceedings and all their background material is on line. You can make your own assessment. In a large number of cases the offences were admitted.
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HarryStotle
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I am not sure it would be “foolish to imagine” there might be rampant false claims. The more I read about Cardinal Pell’s trial the more I am convinced there is something insidious behind at least a good number of allegations. If Pell’s case actually resulted in conviction, and it did, the level of animus against the clergy in parts of Australia appears to be very high. That hardly makes for a fair hearing, let alone responsible screening of allegations.HarryStotle:
Correct. It would be foolish to imagine there is rampant false claims, though there could be some.
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Freddy
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Link here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2017.1419673HarryStotle:
The Royal Commission was extremely conservative in its findings. You should read them. The entire proceedings and all their background material is on line. You can make your own assessment. In a large number of cases the offences were admitted.
Note that the majority of reports of abuse were received in private interviews. The abused had nothing to gain - except maybe an opportunity to let someone know what had happened to them. A traumatic experience in itself.
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HarryStotle
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I have read some, including your citation.HarryStotle:
The Royal Commission was extremely conservative in its findings. You should read them. The entire proceedings and all their background material is on line. You can make your own assessment. In a large number of cases the offences were admitted.
There are a number of anomalies that jump out.
The first being that the largest proportion of these allegations were from the 1970s.
The second that over 3000 have resulted in payouts averaging $88 000.
The third being the fact that the inquiry looked into schools, and found…
Given that only about 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic, it seems very odd that 56% of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools and 20% in independent schools (total = 76%) when 65.4% of students go to public schools.
Are Catholic schools such dens of iniquity that they breed such levels of abuse? Or is there a concerted attempt to shut down private schools and this is one method of doing so?
This data alone brings into question whether fairness and impartiality were part of this inquiry.
There is no reason to think public schools wouldn’t have the same levels of abuse as any other type. Make a case if you don’t agree.
The 2002 [the US] Department of Education report estimated that from 6 percent to 10 percent of all students in public schools would be victims of abuse before graduation — a staggering statistic.
So why the paucity of reports of abuse from public schools in Australia in the report. There were 2.5 million students in public schools in Australia in 2016. 6% of those (using US comparables and being conservative in estimating) would mean something like 150 000 would have experienced sexual abuse. But only 25% of the abuse reports were from public school students even though those make up 2/3 of all students. Seems very fishy.
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Rau
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I can’t see a connection. There is a presumption that alleged accusers are telling the truth, Pell is unpopular, people do not easily warm to him, he’s done some terrible tv interviews and a jury might be predisposed to accept this accuser against Pell. But that is a far cry from a basis to conclude there are hundreds of people prepared to come forward with fabricated claims.
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Rau
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Is this “sexual abuse” or something broader? How many have come forward to report this abuse in the US? The US population must be 15 or 20 times that of Australia…
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VanitasVanitatum
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The word is refering to the gender which is the same otherwise heterosexuals would also be homosexuals.
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