The case of Cardinal George Pell

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The more I read about Cardinal Pell’s trial the more I am convinced there is something insidious behind at least a good number of allegations.

I can’t see a connection.

The connection is that if a large sector of the population has animus towards the Church, and that appears to be the case in Victoria for example, it provides a great deal of moral impetus to those who want to make claims against priests and clergy. If those allegations are simply taken at face and supported without much question then that emboldens false claims to be made.

Payments of $88 000 per victim, on average, seems to be a great incentive to make allegations, only a small percentage of which could give specific details such as dates and time of day.

My point about the schools is that public schools would be about par with Catholic or independent schools in terms of levels of abuse. The fact that the Commission found far more instances of abuse in Catholic and independent school indicates that there appears to be bias in terms of how each were treated in the inquiry.

 

[FiveLinden]

My point about the schools is that public schools would be about par with Catholic or independent schools in terms of levels of abuse. The fact that the Commission found far more instances of abuse in Catholic and independent school indicates that there appears to be bias in terms of how each were treated in the inquiry.

Or, it could, and is far more likely to mean…

 

[FiveLinden]

The Australian Bishops have accepted the findings of the Royal Commission and all but one of its findings (seal of confession). Yes, it might be a vast conspiracy of evil anti-Catholic law enforcement officers and greedy people telling lies about what happened to them but I’m not sure anyone advancing such a proposition can have the best interests of the Church at heart, or at least in head. There is a problem shared by virtually all institutions. There are specifically Catholic issues in terms of culture, tendency to cover up, and the structures of Church, particularly those associated with the operation of religious orders and the administrative authority of bishops. Cardinal Pell himself drew attention to this latter point in his evidence to the Royal Commission which is well worth reading.

 

[HarryStotle]

The Australian Bishops have accepted the findings of the Royal Commission and all but one of its findings (seal of confession). Yes, it might be a vast conspiracy of evil anti-Catholic law enforcement officers and greedy people telling lies about what happened to them but I’m not sure anyone advancing such a proposition can have the best interests of the Church at heart, or at least in head. There is a problem shared by virtually all institutions. There are specifically Catholic issues in terms of culture, tendency to cover up, and the structures of Church, particularly those associated with the operation of religious orders and the administrative authority of bishops. Cardinal Pell himself drew attention to this latter point in his evidence to the Royal Commission which is well worth reading.

This doesn’t address the point about the schools having such discrepant data.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

As an attorney, having experience in criminal defence matters, and having examined the “evidence” used against Pell, I can say with confidence that his conviction was not simply a miscarriage of justice, but a complete abortion thereof. In South Africa it is improbable the case would have even reached trial stage.

 

[FiveLinden]

So do you have access in South Africa to the suppressed evidence and record of cross-examinationof the complaint? If not, how did you bring your ‘experience in criminal defence matters’ to bear on your ‘examination’?

 

[Rau]

The connection is that if a large sector of the population has animus towards the Church, and that appears to be the case in Victoria for example, it provides a great deal of moral impetus to those who want to make claims against priests and clergy.

Huge step from having a dim view of the clergy to fronting up in front of Royal Commissioners, lawyers and others and making up a story complete with crocodile tears.

only a small percentage of which could give specific details such as dates and time of day.

If one were fabricating a story, you’d think obvious details like that might be incorporated into the prepared story. But if not - I’m not surprised events of decades ago, in childhood, can’t be tied to a precise date and time. In fact, if they could, That might be cause for doubt.

My point about the schools is that public schools would be about par with Catholic or independent schools in terms of levels of abuse.

Do you mean “sexual abuse”? I don’t buy the suggestion that one set of students grew up with a major grudge against their teachers, so severe that they go and make up stories of heinous acts and tell them in a formal setting, and the other chooses not to. I think the more obvious explanation probably needs to be accepted as more likely. That being that the relevant religious orders attracted persons not properly equipped for the lifestyle involved, whereas the public school teachers are a more diverse / representative sample of society.

 

[Rau]

Of interest in the Pell case is whether a jury may simultaneously believe a witness but decide the testimony is not sufficient to convict - that is, allow reasonable doubt. I have always assumed “yes”.

 

[Freddy]

Given that only about 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic, it seems very odd that 56% of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools and 20% in independent schools (total = 76%) when 65.4% of students go to public schools.

Are Catholic schools such dens of iniquity that they breed such levels of abuse? Or is there a concerted attempt to shut down private schools and this is one method of doing so?

This data alone brings into question whether fairness and impartiality were part of this inquiry.

There is no reason to think public schools wouldn’t have the same levels of abuse as any other type. Make a case if you don’t agree.

From the linked report it appears there were 2186 cases of abuse in schools and 859 in Catholic schools. Thats 39%.

20% of schools are Catholic, 65% government and 15% independent.

So we have 39% of abuse taking place in 20% of the schools (Catholic) and 61% taking place in 80% of the schools (non Catholic).

And a quick word on personal experience. Both of my kids went to Catholic schools in Australia. Very rigid discipline in both. A lot like the school I went to in the UK. Kinda ivy league. Some teachers actually wore gowns (as they did in my son’s school). Rectangles. School uniform. Rigid discipline. Yes sir no sir three bags full sir. And I was physically beaten on a few ocassions. Assaulted might be a better word for it. And I had some friends who went to what might be classed as a government school. Where I heard a couple of teachers were the ones assaulted.

We had zero problems with the two schools. But it has always been obvious to me that the more rigid the discipline, the easier it is to take advantage of children. Especially young ones. And it only takes one bad apple to end up with tragic reports, many years after the event, of abuse infinitely more horrendous than a physical beating.

The figures speak for themselves. Not many people were surprised by them.

 

[HarryStotle]

Do you mean “sexual abuse”? I don’t buy the suggestion that one set of students grew up with a major grudge against their teachers, so severe that they go and make up stories of heinous acts and tell them in a formal setting, and the other chooses not to. I think the more obvious explanation probably needs to be accepted as more likely. That being that the relevant religious orders attracted persons not properly equipped for the lifestyle involved, whereas the public school teachers are a more diverse / representative sample of society.

That isn’t my argument. I am suspicious of the manner in which data was collected.

The religious orders weren’t those mainly responsible in the schools.

I suspect you missed the point from the US Dept of Education that between 6-10% of students were victims of abuse, and yes this refers to sexual abuse specifically.

https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf

The John Jay Report made it clear that…

According to the best available data (which is pretty good, coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the U.S. sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time which states this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4 percent figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame, and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men.

So your point that “… the relevant religious orders attracted persons not properly equipped for the lifestyle involved, whereas the public school teachers are a more diverse / representative sample of society…” appears untrue.

The more “diverse/representative sample of [men in] society” and the teaching profession specifically is more prone to sexually victimizing minors than priests and religious.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Given that only about 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic, it seems very odd that 56% of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools and 20% in independent schools (total = 76%) when 65.4% of students go to public schools.

Are Catholic schools such dens of iniquity that they breed such levels of abuse? Or is there a concerted attempt to shut down private schools and this is one method of doing so?

This data alone brings into question whether fairness and impartiality were part of this inquiry.

There is no reason to think public schools wouldn’t have the same levels of abuse as any other type. Make a case if you don’t agree.

From the linked report it appears there were 2186 cases of abuse in schools and 859 in Catholic schools. Thats 39%.

20% of schools are Catholic, 65% government and 15% independent.

So we have 39% of abuse taking place in 20% of the schools (Catholic) and 61% taking place in 80% of the schools (non Catholic).

Nope its 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic and 56% (not 39%) of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools and 20% in independent schools (total = 76%) when 65.4% of students go to public schools where only 24% of the abuse reportedly occurred. That is from the report.

And a quick word on personal experience. Both of my kids went to Catholic schools in Australia. Very rigid discipline in both. A lot like the school I went to in the UK. Kinda ivy league. Some teachers actually wore gowns (as they did in my son’s school). Rectangles. School uniform. Rigid discipline. Yes sir no sir three bags full sir. And I was physically beaten on a few ocassions. Assaulted might be a better word for it. And I had some friends who went to what might be classed as a government school. Where I heard a couple of teachers were the ones assaulted.

We had zero problems with the two schools. But it has always been obvious to me that the more rigid the discipline, the easier it is to take advantage of children. Especially young ones. And it only takes one bad apple to end up with tragic reports, many years after the event, of abuse infinitely more horrendous than a physical beating.

The figures speak for themselves. Not many people were surprised by them.

Your data is off and your conclusions are unsurprising coming from you.

I have no interest in engaging with you in this thread.

 

[Neithan]

Nope its 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic and 56% (not 39%) of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools and 20% in independent schools (total = 76%) when 65.4% of students go to public schools where only 24% of the abuse reportedly occurred. That is from the report.

That seems rather incredible. These numbers are just accepted?

 

[HarryStotle]

Source:

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/final_report_-_volume_13_schools.pdf

Relevant data:

There is near universal enrolment in school for Australian children aged between six and 15
years. In 2016, almost 3.8 million children were enrolled in more than 9,400 Australian primary
and secondary schools.
Australian schools fall under two broad sectors: government and non-government. In 2016,
70.5 per cent (6,634) of Australian schools were government schools and 29.5 per cent of
schools (2,780) were non-government schools. Non-government schools are divided into either
Catholic or Independent schools. In 2016, 18.5 per cent of all schools were Catholic schools
and 11.0 per cent were Independent schools. Almost two-thirds (65.4 per cent) of students
in Australia attend government schools.
Page 9

Almost one in three of all survivors we heard about in private sessions (2,186 survivors
or 31.8 per cent) told us they were sexually abused in a school setting as a child.
Of these survivors:
• three-quarters (75.9 per cent) said they were abused in non-government schools,
of which 73.8 per cent identified a Catholic school and 26.4 per cent identified an
Independent school
Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse 11
• one-quarter (24.9 per cent) said they were abused in government schools
• almost three-quarters (71.8 per cent) said they were abused in a religious school,
while 4.1 per cent said they were abused in a secular non-government school
• almost one in three (30.4 per cent) said they were abused in a boarding school setting,
of which 96.8 per cent told us it was a non-government boarding school and 3.2 per
cent identified a government boarding school. Of the non-government boarding
schools, 57.0 per cent identified a Catholic school and 43.2 per cent identified an
Independent school.
Pages 10-11

Note 73.8% of 75.9% amounts to 56% of total abuse claims. Hence my claim…

Nope its 18.5% of schools in Australia are Catholic and 56% (not 39%) of all abuse in schools happened in Catholic Schools

 

[Freddy]

Your data is off and your conclusions are unsurprising coming from you.

I have no interest in engaging with you in this thread.

My opinions are based on personal experience of British schools and Australian Catholic schools, two of which my children attended, discussions with other (Catholic) parents who have sent their kids to Catholic and government schools in Australia plus the information from the Royal Commission.

They remain simply my opinions. You are free to disregard them as you see fit.

 

[njlisa]

This story comes from the conservative National Catholic Register.

The Case Against Cardinal George Pell: New Details Emerge| National Catholic Register

We’ll just have to see what unfolds. One thing’s for sure. No one is above the law – be he prince or pauper.

 

[CRV]

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/historical-residential-institutions
Between May 2013 and May 2017, 6,875 people came forward and told their stories of sexual abuse to one or more Commissioners during a private session. Over one-third (35.9 per cent) of these survivors described abuse in an historical residential institution.

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/contemporary-out-home-care
Of the 257 survivors who told us in a private session that they had been sexually abused in contemporary out-of-home care, 170, or 66.1 per cent, said they were abused in home-based care, and 96 (37.4 per cent) said they were abused in a residential care setting. Some told us they were abused in both types of care placements.

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/schools
Almost one in three of all survivors we heard about in private sessions (2,186 survivors or 31.8 per cent) told us they were sexually abused in a school setting as a child. Of these survivors:

• three-quarters (75.9 per cent) said they were abused in non-government schools, of which 73.8 per cent identified a Catholic school and 26.4 per cent identified an Independent school
• one-quarter (24.9 per cent) said they were abused in government schools
• almost three-quarters (71.8 per cent) said they were abused in a religious school, while 4.1 per cent said they were abused in a secular non-government school
• almost one in three (30.4 per cent) said they were abused in a boarding school setting, of which 96.8 per cent told us it was a non-government boarding school and 3.2 per cent identified a government boarding school. Of the non-government boarding schools, 57.0 per cent identified a Catholic school and 43.2 per cent identified an Independent school.

Survivors told us about abuse occurring in 1,069 schools, of which 55.8 per cent were non-government schools and 44.2 per cent were government schools.

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sport-recreation-arts-culture-community
408 survivors told us about child sexual abuse in sport and recreation settings. We identified 344 sport and recreation institutions across Australia where survivors told us the abuse occurred.

Youth Detention
515 children in youth detention, 91 of whom told us they were abused after 1990.

Immigration Detention
The CPP found that 27.6 per cent of a sample of 214 incidents of child abuse, neglect and exploitation reported between 1 January 2008 and 30 June 2015 involved child sexual abuse.

 

[CRV]

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/religious-institutions
In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 1,691 different religious institutions. … … We heard about perpetrators including priests, religious brothers and sisters, ministers, church elders, teachers in religious schools, workers in residential institutions, youth group leaders and others.

As of 31 May 2017 we had heard from 6,875 survivors in private sessions, of whom 4,029 (58.6 per cent) told us about child sexual abuse in religious institutions.

The largest proportion of these survivors spoke to us about child sexual abuse in Catholic institutions. We heard from 2,489 survivors about child sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, representing almost two-thirds (61.8 per cent) of survivors who told us about child sexual abuse in religious institutions and more than one-third (36.2 per cent) of all survivors we heard from in private sessions. In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 964 different Catholic institutions.

Around two-thirds of alleged perpetrators identified in claims of child sexual abuse were either priests (30 per cent), religious brothers (32 per cent) or religious sisters (5 per cent). Just under one-third (29 per cent) were lay people.

(My own note – only 1% difference between priests and lay people .)

 

[CRV]

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/vic/VSCA//2019/186.html

Robes pulled aside / pushed aside including whether or not Pell was wearing trousers underneath.

#44 , #205, #206

Under the “Overall Conclusion – by Justice Weinberg”

#356, #432, #435, #437, #438, #440

( 10 Not Possible to part the applicants robes )

#817, #818, #819, #820

827 points given for Justice Weinbergs’ judgement which covered 55 pages of the document!

To me, that demonstrates a lot of wrong points regarding the finding of guilty.

ETA

Reasonable Doubts About Pell’s Conviction | Julia Yost | First Things

Cardinal Pell, Scapegoat | Matthew Schmitz | First Things

Australian Justice in the Dock | George Weigel | First Things

 

[Rau]

The religious orders weren’t those mainly responsible in the schools.

Who were (can you reference the commission report)?

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

So do you have access in South Africa to the suppressed evidence and record of cross-examinationof the complaint? If not, how did you bring your ‘experience in criminal defence matters’ to bear on your ‘examination’?

That’s a strawman argument, which I reject.

What do you have to contribute to the subject over than snark?