The Case of Theodore McCarrick | Commonweal Magazine

[bullish1]

Pope Francis is handling the appeal as he announced it the same day the Vigano letter came out. The Pope has information of an explosive strategy of the accusers and their handlers involving potential conspiracies, bribing and racketeering, using projected monetary gains alleged victims will reap from the church. This information has to be counterbalanced by true instances of power abuse and cases of many decades old pedophile predating by parish priests in the diocese.

What I would like to call this will get me censored so I will go with “Poppycock!” If the Pope had this info it should have been released immediately. I am sure that some will try to benefit from this illegally but if the church had been aggressive in combating this evil from the start, we would not be here. Sure, the US has made much progress in combating youth assaults because we were among the 1st countries that were exposed by outsiders. But we have not done much about the “Clerical” abuses of power that seem mostly associated by an insane process that encourages and protects a homosexual culture in the priesthood. That same culture that seems to be OK with claiming all sin is bad and that poverty is no worse that murder of the unborn.

 

[curious_cath]

If the Pope had this info it should have been released immediately.

This would be unfortunately Impossible as the evidence is circumstantial at best. The Pope cannot go out to the media to announce probable scenarios. He has to say what has been assured. But still, what can be known gives you the hives! Thanks God, Pope Francis does not need to explain his decisions to the media jackals who would go after him anyway, as they did after his Chile trip.

associated by an insane process that encourages and protects a homosexual culture in the priesthood.

This might be a blessing in disguise. I mean some clergy may have this false idea about themselves. Just as the Holy Sacraments are coming from God through the mediation of the priests, they might view themselves in everything as divine mediators between God and man. A priest may view himself as a medium of divine intervention even in the things related to sex. This is blatantly wrong and severely anti-Catholic. But it has some Ancient roots in polytheistic religions. I believe many priests, perhaps even bishops or cardinals have a spontaneous residue of Ancient polytheistic religious thought or theology in their minds, brought to them by Gnostic heresy.

So are they culpable criminals for misunderstanding Jesus and misunderstanding Christianity? Or are they misguided souls who deserve Papal mercy to bring them back to the flock? This is the question, my friend.

You are talking about “blind faith,” just believing the Pope because he is the Pope.

Being a Pope is the evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit? Rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit is sin against Him.

Consider what crimes we are talking about.

Some of the clergy who became involved in sinful behavior believe what they did was for the benefit of the victims.

This is a fundamentally twisted optic, but also something that is prevalent in some circles. Do you want to burn them? Or give them the love of God that is the only instrument that might bring these people home.

 

[13pollitos]

Do you want to burn them? Or give them the love of God that is the only instrument that might bring these people home.

I do not want to burn them. I want the Church to keep them away from potential victims until God calls them home. Laicizing them and releasing them to the public is purely wrong.

True Mercy isn’t turning away and giving unlimited chances to get better. Mercy must be coupled with justice. It is also merciful to remove opportunities or occasions of sin from a person’s path. By moving priests around or laicizing them, we are only increasing their opportunities to sin. That is not merciful for the victims OR the abusers.

I think we have shown a huge mercy to McCarrick by locking him in a monastery. He is away from mobs who would love to get their hands on him and his opportunity to hurt more vulnerable boys and young men is removed. This is the sort of mercy that we should be handing out. That is how we can show the love of God and help lead them home.

 

[Annie]

Thanks God, Pope Francis does not need to explain his decisions to the media jackals who would go after him anyway, as they did after his Chile trip.

When he said the victims were committing sin by accusing Barros? Then saying there was no evidence… Then that he personally knew nothing when he had been given a letter personally about Barros?

This is just too much, curious_cath. Covering up sexual abuse? This is ok with you? You think reporters are going after someone like jackals when the person is covering up sexual abuse?

I mean some clergy may have this false idea about themselves.

So what? o what if these men, who have been educated for years in Catholic thought retain some stupid and very, very wrong idea of themselves? Guess what? Most criminals also have wrong ideas about themselves. Murderers think it is all right for them to take a human life.

The fact that someone has a wrong idea is not grounds on which to extend an unwarranted mercy. It is grounds for protecting society against them. It is grounds for saying: this person has committed a [crime and] must be judged and punished for it, not for making excuses and covering up the crimes so they can continue is to molest the young people to whom they are supposed to be ministering.

This is a double violation, a violation of the mind and of the spirit. How many people have left the Church, even committed suicide, as a result of these depredations?

So are they culpable criminals for misunderstanding Jesus and misunderstanding Christianity? Or are they misguided souls who deserve Papal mercy to bring them back to the flock?

YES, THEY ARE CULPABLE CRIMINALS!!! How can you say anything else about these men who have been thoroughly educated in the teachings of Christ, who celebrate Mass, who are required to spend hours each day in prayer? They work in front of the Crucifix!!!

If you say these men are misguided souls, let me ask you what should be done about poor, uneducated criminals, about drug dealers who were brought into the business as children, about people so stressed they killed their own child, about about people so bullied they lash out at those around them?

What about people who do not have these empty backgrounds? Like Set Gonzalez, who immigrated to Australia from the Philippines when he was 10, and killed his family? Do you think he is “a misguided soul who deserves Papal mercy to bring him back to the fold”?

It is the misapplication of mercy which has caused us to get to this place where the Church is riddled with these abusers (not saying that a lot of priests are abusers, but that there are abusers all over the place).

It is the bishops’ feeling sorry for the abusers which has allowed the abusers to continue to prey upon the young people around them!

 

[Annie]

Being a Pope is the evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit?

It doesn’t work that way. Who is chosen to be pope is determined by the cardinals, but that doesn’t mean that God intervenes in the election. The cardinals ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit; what they do with that guidance remains up to them.

Yes, God allows the man elected to become the pope, in the same way that He allows a drunk driver to kill a family. But the pope is not necessarily the one whom God wanted to be pope.

Some of the clergy who became involved in sinful behavior believe what they did was for the benefit of the victims.

Yeah, people who do bad things blunt their consciences and their intellects to this point.

But it is still very evil thinking, isn’t it?

Do you want to burn them? Or give them the love of God that is the only instrument that might bring these people home.

For all criminals, we should be showing love and making efforts to “bring them home.” But that does not mean we should not also take appropriate steps to protect society from them and to impose just punishments on them.

We should not treat sex abusers any differently than other criminals just because they are priests or bishops.

 

[tafan2]

Purify from what?

Seriously?

 

[curious_cath]

It is also merciful to remove opportunities or occasions of sin from a person’s path.

I don’t question this. But a witch hunt against the Pope because of McCarrick goes much beyond that.

Covering up sexual abuse? This is ok with you?

Pope Francis did not cover up sexual abuse. He only pointed out that the evidence was shaky or non-existence. Look, these media campaigns are often based on distorted truth. For example, Cardinal McCarrick exercised great liberties with the seminarians and young priests. But victims who got settlement say he did not even touched them below the belt. It was abuse of power and influence of a high ranking person. But it was a much lesser crime, if it was crime at all, than what predators do. It is bad enough the church is riddled with genuine, criminal predators. We don’t need to make more of them by exaggerating dubious acts of indecency.

We should not treat sex abusers any differently than other criminals just because they are priests or bishops.

The church teaches that sex is a gift from God. It is divine. Even in family life, the sex is aimed at impregnation that is an act of God. The church teaches that sex beyond the purpose of reproduction is sin. The husband brings the power of God into the womb of the mother to create new life. This is a spiritualizing of biological function. We believe it is the proper understanding we follow. But let me ask this: if our spiritual guide is the parish priest and our reproduction in family life is essentially spiritual then is it not natural to assume the priest may have a say in it? He can even give advise in matters related to sex. Would not this make him an authority in reproductive function?

You see, even if a priest is formed following Catholic doctrine, he might have the false impression of having a God given right to mentor people in relation to their sexual lives. This is just one tiny step away from getting involved, believing he follows God’s will and provides benefit in doing so. This may pair with a wrongful view of anointing which is done by pouring sacred oil. If we look at this side of the picture, we realize something deeply wrong that misguides these poor souls to follow sinful practices. But is not sexual function God given, anyway?

 

[Annie]

I don’t question this. But a witch hunt against the Pope because of McCarrick goes much beyond that.

I feel like sometimes you are talking specifically about McCarrick, and sometimes in general. I am speaking generally unless I specify, but some of what I said may have been different from what I would have said if I had understood that you were speaking specifically of McCarrick.

I do not know enough about the matter to judge the Pope’s involvement in the MacCarrick situation, and I don’t think anyone else does either.

But is not sexual function God given, anyway?

Yes, it is, but it is given for specific purposes; any use outside those purposes, between a husband (m) and wife (f), is gravely sinful.

This is just one tiny step away from getting involved, believing he follows God’s will and provides benefit in doing so. This may pair with a wrongful view of anointing which is done by pouring sacred oil. If we look at this side of the picture, we realize something deeply wrong that misguides these poor souls to follow sinful practices.

This is where you totally lose me. What you describe is a person so far down the road in his sin that he can think that way.

When we first sin, we rationalize: we want to steal so we say, they won’t notice; it is fair because they charge too much; I really need it; it’s small…

By doing that we begin the process of perverting our conscience and our intellect. We then have those deformations and over time, as we rationalize our ever-increasing sins, we think ourselves further and further from God, and closer and closer to the devil.

The fact that some priests through their perverted thinking can come up with ideas like that is no reason whatsoever for us to think that this somehow mitigates the guilt of having committed these atrocious acts.

We should not ever fall into the trap of feeling sorry for a person, highly trained in theology, wedded to the Church! for his having allowed his mind to fall to such hellos depths.

 

[Annie]

From this article: “The abuse didn’t destroy my faith,” Szutenbach said. “The way they treated me when I told them what happened, the way they responded, destroyed my faith.”

But for some, the abuse itself killed their faith, their relationship with God; and for some, their relationships with others, and some ended up committing suicide.

Matthew 18:6: But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[kyrie03]

May the Church be purified of the erroneous belief that just because a man occupies a particular office, he comes with a “nihl obstat” stamp of the Holy Spirit.

May the Church be purified of homosexuals polluting the hierarchy by reinstating the Bull against Clerical Sodomy promulgated by Pope St Pius V.

May the Church be purified of the fear of persecution and seek to fulfill the promise all bishops make at their ordination – “to guard the deposit of faith, entire and incorrupt, as handed down by the Apostles, preserved in the Church everywhere and at all times.”

Luke 11:24: “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest: and not finding, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out……”

• According to commentary of Church Fathers St. Ambrose, St. Cyril and St. John Chrysostom: the one man is the whole Jewish people, of whom the unclean spirit had been driven out when they were given the law. They had been purified of the evils of Egypt with the sprinkling of the blood of the paschal lamb. The evil spirit returned to his former habitation because he saw them devoid of virtues. And their latter state is worse than the first, for more wicked demons possess the breasts of the Jews than before. Their fathers killed the prophets; they will kill the Lamb of God.

Let us heed this warning meant for us, too. We have been cleansed with the Blood of the Lamb of God. When we allow for deviations from the law of God (ex: Holy Eucharist for adulterous), we deprived ourselves of the merciful protection of Providence, and, destitute of grace, will be delivered to even more cruel tyranny of demons.

Let us follow the advice of Christ continued in Luke 11:28 “blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.”

 

[curious_cath]

This is where you totally lose me. What you describe is a person so far down the road in his sin that he can think that way.

Not necessarily. A priest believes he delivers the godly, makes the divine tangible to the faithful. For instance, this happens through him in the absolution of sins during confession or in the transubstantiation of the bread into the Body of Christ during Eucharist. It might be easy to mistake sexuality as a similar kind of “divine commodity” that is delivered from God to the faithful by His humble servant. I don’t say it is not pervert. It is pervert. But those priests in a state of no previous sexual experience and great spiritual blindness, that persists despite formation and good education, may mistake their own sexual urge with divine empowerment. Then, with great irresponsibility of mind and heart, they may act upon that perceived divine empowerment.

May the Church be purified of homosexuals polluting the hierarchy by reinstating the Bull against Clerical Sodomy promulgated by Pope St Pius V.

You mean death to gay priests, bishops and cardinals?

 

[Annie]

And what ramifications does your “theory” leave us with? What change does it make?

 

[curious_cath]

No change. It is only perception. Sexual abuse has been present in the church since the beginning. Why? What is wrong that sexual predation reproduces itself from age to age?

 

[13pollitos]

It might be easy to mistake sexuality as a similar kind of “divine commodity” that is delivered from God to the faithful by His humble servant.

That is digusting.

 

[bullish1]

For example, Cardinal McCarrick exercised great liberties with the seminarians and young priests. But victims who got settlement say he did not even touched them below the belt. It was abuse of power and influence of a high ranking person. But it was a much lesser crime, if it was crime at all, than what predators do. It is bad enough the church is riddled with genuine, criminal predators. We don’t need to make more of them by exaggerating dubious acts of indecency.

You seem to be promoting totally fake news here! Of course McCarrick committed sodomy against both seminarians and young men. Go ahead and defend Francis if you want but at least use truth!

Loading…

www.fox5dc.com

 

[kyrie03]

You mean death to gay priests, bishops and cardinals?

Instead of resorting to scare tactics, stick to reality .

Pope St Pius V Bull against Clerical Sodomy published in 1568:

stripping the clerical of ecclesiastical degree and then handing him over to secular authority for punishment *Note- the Church didn’t condemn anyone to death!

St Basil the Great who wrote up the original rules for men living in community in 4th century says:

“A cleric or monk who seduces youths or young boys or is found kissing or in any other impure situations is to be publicly flogged and lose his tonsure. When his hair has been shorn, his face is to be foully besmeared with spit and he is to be bound in iron chains. For six months he will languish in prison-like confinement and on three days of each week shall fast on barley bread in the evening. After this he will spend another six months under the custodial care of a spiritual elder, remaining in a segregated cell, giving himself to manual work and prayer, subject to vigils and prayers. He may go for walks but always under the custodial care of two spiritual brethren, and he shall never again associate with youths in private conversation nor in counselling them.”

Obviously something more drastic than shuffling priests around or sending them to “life of prayer” where they “expiate” by working in soup kitchen, etc…, hiding evidence, and falsely claiming that the abuse ‘didn’t occur below the belt,” or the actions were “clericalism” is necessary.

• How about an apostolic visitations Cardinal Di Nardo and the American bishops requested in September? Pope Francis rejected.
• What about a canonical investigation and trial of McCarrick to sort out facts and determine who else is culpable? Pope Francis isn’t interested
• Release Vatican documentation on McCarrick? Stonewall and attack the whistleblower.
• How about the USCCB meet to create standards of conduct to address clerical abuse in episcopacy and establish a third-party reporting system? The Communist Chinese are trusted to nominate worthy men to be bishops, local bishops conferences can determine if adulterous are allowed to receive the Body and Blood of Christ, but US Bishops cannot be trusted to set rules of conduct for themselves.

 

[Annie]

No change. It is only perception.

So there is no point to this speculative thinking of yours, no evidence for it, and it makes no difference.

Notice that as a normal rule, we do not listen to rationalizations for wrong-doing. Neither should we here. If some priests and bishops have allowed themselves to become that confused about their roles, that is their problem.

Sexual abuse has been present in the church since the beginning. Why? What is wrong that sexual predation reproduces itself from age to age?

The fallen state of mankind. Which we are supposed to fight against, not give into.

 

[curious_cath]

That is digusting.

For me too. It is distorted theology. The Catholic Church should note this and should ease up on regulating the sexual lives of 100% normal lay couples. The Church, meaning its clergy, should withdraw his arm from the bedroom where it has no business at all.

McCarrick committed sodomy against both seminarians and young men.

I just repeated what victims said in the referred interview. They said it, not the cardinal.

Note- the Church didn’t condemn anyone to death!

This is hypocrisy on the grand scale. St. Pope Pius 5 wanted these people to be executed by the state. It was the practice of the Inquisition to hand over convicts to the state to be burned. Just like Jesus was crucified by the Romans and not the Jews who handed Him over to Pilate. Pope Pius supervised in person the torture of many accused. This is soooo Middle Ages, dear kyrie03. You cannot go back there after Vatican 2.

When his hair has been shorn, his face is to be foully besmeared with spit and he is to be bound in iron chains.

It was before Vatican 2. The evidence is here, precisely in your quote, that the church had to face this problem from early on. Concupiscence took over some of the faithful and led them into addiction of the flesh. Even St. Paul had a thorn in the flesh that we don’t know what exactly was. Draconian rules were insufficient to stifle sinful acts for over 2000 years. What would this tell you about the efficacy of punishment? For me it makes sense that the church tries something else after Vatican 2.

How about the USCCB meet to create standards of conduct

Are you trying to change the topic?

So there is no point to this speculative thinking of yours, no evidence for it, and it makes no difference.

The evidence is out there in the minds and behavior of the perpetrators.

The fallen state of mankind. Which we are supposed to fight against, not give into.

Yes, we are fallen. So the church should not hand on a theology that encourages concupiscence through inference of priestly power into anything related to a normal and healthy sexual life of a married couple consisting of a woman and a man. With an Ancient theology of godly power over the biological capabilities of man, we are bound to repeat the Ancient history of unlimited sexual abuse, addiction to fleshly desires among the clergy and the ensuing culture of accusations and counter-accusations.

 

[13pollitos]

For me too. It is distorted theology. The Catholic Church should note this and should ease up on regulating the sexual lives of 100% normal lay couples. The Church, meaning its clergy, should withdraw his arm from the bedroom where it has no business at all.

What is that going to resolve? I’m starting to wonder if you are for real or not. How would relaxing moral standards, that come from GOD, for normal lay people solve the issue of perverted, vow breaking, perverted priests and bishops?

 

[Annie]

Yes, we are fallen. So the church should not hand on a theology that encourages concupiscence through inference of priestly power into anything related to a normal and healthy sexual life of a married couple consisting of a woman and a man. With an Ancient theology of godly power over the biological capabilities of man, we are bound to repeat the Ancient history of unlimited sexual abuse, addiction to fleshly desires among the clergy and the ensuing culture of accusations and counter-accusations.

I certainly hope you didn’t learn this… stuff… in the Neocatechumical Way you mentioned being a member of. How you make the leap from “Among the.clergy and religious there have always been some few sexual sinners with this particular mode of thinking which I imagine they must be thinking since they are committing this particular sin” to “So the Church should not try to teach us anything about sexual activity” is beyond me.