The Case of Theodore McCarrick | Commonweal Magazine

[curious_cath]

What is that going to resolve?

Concupiscence is unleashed by the opportunity of sin. I am not talking about relaxing moral standards. I am talking about disempowering priests from thinking of themselves as guards of the sexual lives of others. This is too much of a source of temptation and transgression for them. Their empowerment in this regard has never come from the Scriptures, it came from the church that has to reform itself.

I am struggling here the same way as everybody else. I am taken aback by news. I also feel that the old evil cannot be chased away from the church by same old manners. We need new ways to fight against the moral decline of our faith and the demolition of our stature as a respectable religion.The reestablishment of Inquisition and burning would only lead us back to square one.

 

[curious_cath]

I certainly hope you didn’t learn this… stuff… in the Neocatechumical Way

In our communities we learn that we should be open to life. We are irredeemable sinners who need the mercy of God every moments of our lives. We learn that our sisters and brothers are our family and our catechists were anointed by Kiko, the charismatic leader of the Way. So we owe obedience. We also learn to love our enemy and lay down our life for our enemy as Christians do. Jesus told the adulterous woman to go and sin no more. He forgave her sin. He gave His life for her, redeeming her again on the cross. He also gave His life for me, for all sinners, the sin of everybody, the whole world.

He gave us our communities and agape to rejoice. That is how much God loves His people! We are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, the Ancient believers of the Most High. If you struggle with the devil, your brother will be there for you. We know our weaknesses and give support to each other to overcome. We do the scrutiny which is not torture but liberation from sin. You see people crying, shaking and shrieking when the demons leave them. Our catechists free us from demons. It is very powerful. But not for everyone. If you don’t depend on the mercy of God every moment of your life, then you probably don’t need the community either.

 

[Annie]

If you struggle with the devil, your brother will be there for you.

And for those who do not struggle but just give in to the devil, “causing the little ones to stumble,” what about them?

 

[curious_cath]

And for those who do not struggle but just give in to the devil, “causing the little ones to stumble,” what about them?

Your brother will be there to remind you of the face of Jesus that is lost for you when you sin. This will strip you from your addiction. You don’t wanna stand in front of the brothers and tell them you did it again. The sin of one single member of the community will have an impact on all. You don’t wanna destroy your brothers. You’d rather tell them you go to mission to proclaim the Good News of Kerygma to the pagans. We raise and support mission families who go about everywhere on the globe.

Just to clarify: you did not quote me in your comment here. The quotes are not from me!

The Case of Theodore McCarrick | Commonweal Magazine Catholic News

I certainly hope you didn’t learn this… stuff… in the Neocatechumical Way you mentioned being a member of. How you make the leap from “Among the.clergy and religious there have always been some few sexual sinners with this particular mode of thinking which I imagine they must be thinking since they are committing this particular sin” to “So the Church should not try to teach us anything about sexual activity” is beyond me.

 

[Annie]

Just to clarify: you did not quote me in your comment here. The quotes are not from me!

The quotes are restatement of what you have said, which I put in quotation marks as a way to separate them as their own independent clauses. In the sentence. I did not mean for them to be taken as direct quotes of your words, but I think that anyone who has read your posts in this thread would understand why I wrote what I wrote.

The other part if what you wrote… Well, if a priest does what he supposed to do as one who loves Christ, he would be reminded of the face of Christ several times a day. You cannot rely on someone who would molest young people for his own sexual pleasure to be fully honest with others.

 

[bullish1]

I just repeated what victims said in the referred interview. They said it, not the cardinal.

No. You repeated what a victim said as if it were all the victims. You conveniently left out any of the many references and testimony about sodomy allegations by victims. Your intent is probably to obfuscate the truth of McCarrick’s atrocious, behavior! Sorry, but you are using unreasonable arguments and proposing unrealistic solutions that will only perpetuate the problems in the church. I pray that no one is fooled by this.

 

[kyrie03]

The Church, meaning its clergy, should withdraw his arm from the bedroom where it has no business at all.

The Church needs to appropriately discipline bishops who break the promise made at ordination “to guard the deposit of faith entire and incorrupt as was handed down by the Apostles and preserved in the Church everywhere and at all times.”

This is soooo Middle Ages, dear kyrie03. You cannot go back there after Vatican 2.

Uh…are you suggesting that Vatican 2 tinkered with the deposit of faith as was handed down by the Apostles and preserved in the Church everywhere and at all times? (Your revisionist history about Pope St Pius V is false)

Draconian rules were insufficient to stifle sinful acts for over 2000 years. What would this tell you about the efficacy of punishment? For me it makes sense that the church tries something else after Vatican 2.

Actually, St Basil’s “draconian” rules for monks engaging in homosexual behavior DID help to curb the pollution from spreading (as it has within the Church today). He understood that serious sins require serious actions. There will always be sin, regardless of rule enforcement. But my children certainly are better behaved when they know I mean what I say because I back it up with appropriate discipline.

The Church’s chief concern since the time of Christ, as is evidenced by Her disciplining of wayward children, is for the salvation of souls. There certainly have been periods of time in Church history when certain individuals in the hierarchy disregarded the laws of God and His Church. The resulting rot became severe enough that reformation was required. We’ve reached that stage today. And if the Church refuses to reform Herself, God will allow secular or other means to bring about the purification of His mistreated Bride.

 

[kyrie03]

If priests at ANY time in the history of the Church believed they had POWER to guard the sexual lives of others, they were wrong. I don’t know who wrote the Church history you are reading, but it sounds dishonestly biased.

 

[curious_cath]

if the Church refuses to reform Herself, God will allow secular or other means to bring about the purification of His mistreated Bride.

Pope Francis is a true reformer.

 

[I_trust]

our catechists were anointed by Kiko, the charismatic leader of the Way…

You see, even if a priest is formed following Catholic doctrine, he might have the false impression of having a God given right to mentor people in relation to their sexual lives. This is just one tiny step away from getting involved, believing he follows God’s will and provides benefit in doing so. This may pair with a wrongful view of anointing which is done by pouring sacred oil.

So…Do you believe that this “anointing” by Kiko is any way equal to or surpasses the anointing of a new Priest or Bishop by another Bishop? What do you believe this anointing by Kiko does? Does it make an indelible mark on the soul like at Ordination? What authority does Kiko claim to have?

Perhaps your view of anointing conflicts with the Church’s teaching?

You want the Church to stay out of the bedroom. Apparently you believe She (The Church) has nothing to say about human sexuality between a married man and woman.

So what are you thoughts about the Theology of The Body as taught by Pope John Paul II?

Or do you accept the official catholic teaching on human sexuality in the Catechism of The Catholic Church 2331-2400? Does the Church have the right to teach married couples what human sexuality is about?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Many times Catholics who want the Church to mind Her own business in this area actually disagree with official church teaching and are unwilling to change their own behavior. I will not speak for you, so do you accept all of the Church’s teachings in this area?

 

[I_trust]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

VII. THE EFFECTS OF THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS

The indelible character
1581 This sacrament configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king.
1582 As in the case of Baptism and Confirmation this share in Christ’s office is granted once for all. The sacrament of Holy Orders, like the other two, confers an indelible spiritual character and cannot be repeated or conferred temporarily.74

 

[curious_cath]

So…Do you believe that this “anointing” by Kiko is any way equal to or surpasses the anointing of a new Priest or Bishop by another Bishop?

The anointing of a charism is distinct from the anointing of a priest. One of them releases a charism to operate for the benefit of the church. The other one releases a person to operate in the service of the church.

what are you thoughts about the Theology of The Body as taught by Pope John Paul II?

I respect Pope John Paul 2 as a saint and a great pope! We learn in the communities to be open to life. I think this is the crux of the teaching that is very Catholic.

Does the Church have the right to teach married couples what human sexuality is about?

Teaching and interfering might not be the same. CCC 2367 says: “Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God (…) thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters.” If we are interpreters of God’s creative power, then the priest might feel okay to help interpreting God’s love for us. But would it be according to the teaching? I don’t know.

Again CCC 2398 claims: “Fecundity is a good, a gift and an end of marriage. By giving life, spouses participate in God’s fatherhood.” I call my priest father. So this particular connotation might give the wrong idea to the priest to demonstrate his own special relation to God by bringing His power among the faithful.

On top of this, some Gnostic residues may persist in the higher echelons of the church giving permit to the initiated priest, bishop or cardinal, through secretly dispensed secret teaching, to act in a manner that is considered sinful for any common lay people.

What I think is that as soon as a priest, bishop or cardinal is too eager to become “interpreter” of God’s creative power over the faithful, he might be in great danger of falling into sin. This is my reading of the current very sad situation of the Catholic Church in the 21st century of America.

 

[Annie]

So this particular connotation might give the wrong idea to the priest to demonstrate his own special relation to God by bringing His power among the faithful.

On top of this, some Gnostic residues may persist in the higher echelons of the church giving permit to the initiated priest, bishop or cardinal, through secretly dispensed secret teaching, to act in a manner that is considered sinful for any common lay people.

Where are you getting these ideas from?

 

[curious_cath]

Where are you getting these ideas from?

This is the Ancient priestly function, or clericalism, bridging across continents, histories, ages and religions, mono- or polytheistic alike. Stealing divine power to meddle between Creator and creation, God and man! Why do you think anything has changed?

Catholicism is more Ancient than Christianity, Judaism or even Melchizedek. Catholicism goes back to the very root at the beginning of time, to the very source of good and evil. It is no different of a religion from what we have known for ages. But by the Spirit of Jesus Christ who sent Him, the church has managed to become mainly good and Godly so much in many areas! The Ancient evil has shrunken minuscule, especially in the Catholic Church! We should be proud of this achievement forever, because we are living in historical times. But evil is still there, obfuscating and stealing Jesus from the believer. The lure of the Ancient is hidden in Gnostic residues, present in secret teachings of hidden echelons at the very top of the One Holy Catholic Mother Church, in Scriptures turned upside down, ready to turn back the time of history to square one.

After much contemplation, apart from my community, I came to this conclusion as the only possible explanation to save my faith. If you wanna keep sanity, you have not left much choice. There is an oppressive silence, an evil void that eats up your faith like a Pacman who went awry in his sheer madness! I am at the end of the rope, because everything became fluid, ambiguous, unsettled and unreliable. There is no more trust or fix point in the whole universe of the church. I look at Buddhism very seriously as a viable alternative to survive at this point of my life.

 

[Annie]

I asked where you got these ideas, not what they are. Do you learn this in the Neocatechumal Way? Or who is proposing these ideas?

 

[MikeInVA]

I am talking about disempowering priests from thinking of themselves as guards of the sexual lives of others.

Where is this going on? I have never been asked by a priest about my sex life. The Church has teaching on morality but it is up to you to choose to follow them or not. There is no priest following along behind you keeping score.

 

[tafan2]

. I am talking about disempowering priests from thinking of themselves as guards of the sexual lives of others.

Do you have any examples of writings from any priest that shows they think this way? Do you have any online videos or podcasts of a priest expressing this thinking?

Or are you inferring this simply from the moral reaching of the Church?

 

[Annie]

After much contemplation, apart from my community, I came to this conclusion as the only possible explanation to save my faith. If you wanna keep sanity, you have not left much choice

For what it’s worth, I see the Church as the Body of Christ to which He entrusted Truth, and the great holiness of those who follow Church teaching.

Why would I judge the Church on those who did not follow Church teaching? That would be like judging Jesus on the behavior of Judas.

 

[curious_cath]

I have never been asked by a priest about my sex life.

This is coming top-down. The secret teachings are in higher echelons. They guard secrecy very tightly. They won’t tell you or make you figure out. They even twist the Scriptures to cover up their misdeeds and hide behind: 'Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone" ’ (Luke 5:14)

Do you have any examples of writings from any priest that shows they think this way?

Fr. Bruillard, whom I referred to earlier spilled out some surprising blurbs. He said he assumed he did some good to the kids whom he abused. This means, as a servant of God, he served the goodness of God by abusing kids. Awful claim from a priest!

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He died recenltly at the age of 97.

The Case of Theodore McCarrick | Commonweal Magazine Catholic News

I do not intend to be the “devil’s advocate” or the defender of the indefensible. I myself condemn Cardinal McCarrick’s action what he did in abusing the trust of people. But I refrain from judging the person, especially his standing with regret, confession and absolution. If he participated in the Holy Sacrament of reconciliation then why should we doubt the truthfulness of his remorse? Even if someone thinks of the Cardinal as his enemy, should not he love his enemy and lay down his life for…

For what it’s worth, I see the Church as the Body of Christ to which He entrusted Truth, and the great holiness of those who follow Church teaching.

We also learn that salvation is coming through faith and not through works. A personal relation with Jesus, when you invite Him to live in your heart, might be much stronger than blindly following any teaching of obscure, Ancient human origin.

 

[curious_cath]

Jesus says, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me” (Matthew 25:45). Buddha says, “If you do not tend one another, then who is there to tend you? Whoever would tend me, he should tend the sick” (Vinaya, Mahavagga 8.26.3).

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www.ncronline.org