The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh, it is EXTREMELY relevant.

The apostles were the leaders of the church, weren’t they?

All 12 of them.

If one of them went against the authority of the Church/Christ, by your logic you’re claiming that the apostles aren’t the Church. . because it would only be the ‘good actions’ of the 11 that you would weigh. You don’t consider the apostles as The Church but only as individual men.

 

[NotTooSmart]

No one said that Catholics WROTE it. They have said, accurately, that the RCC CONMPILED it. What’s your deal? Are you to just stir up stuff?

OK…if the RCC compiled it, then the RCC did the sex abuse scandals.

Now I really think that men in the Catholic church compiled it.

My deal?

I have observed an inconsistency. When it comes to the positive in the history of the Church like the Bible, the Church takes credit for it. When it comes to the negative in the history of the Church, it is men and the Church has no part of it.

Now I think the better answer in both cases is that men in the Catholic church are responsible for both the positive and negative, but I can live with the other too.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

All right, if you’re going to separate the ‘men’ from the Church, then please tell us EXACTLY what you think 'The Church" is.

 

[happilycatholic]

If it was individual priests who were guilty of the sex scandals and that did not follow the guidance of the Spirit and did NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

Then

It was individuals who followed the guidance of the Spirit in the canon of the Scripture. The Spirit worked through the willing cooperation of these individuals. The canon WAS NOT WRITTEN WITHOUT their cooperation.

That’s being consistent.

For the consistancy you are looking for you need to take the need from God of a human element out of the equation. God’s Grace stands alone. He does not need our cooperation to empart Grace. We need the Grace and so we accept it. Upon the acceptance of Grace we are in communion with God. It’s called choice. God will not take the element of free will out of the equation.

We are inconsistent as humans. God is nothing but consistent as He is Divine. The Church was in full communion with God when the Scriptures were recorded, canonized and in protection of the content of those Scriptures. Whether or not you personally believe that. God doesn’t require your belief. He simply asks for it.

The fact of the matter is, God doesn’t require anything from us. It is us who require it from Him and hopefully more than that, we desire it to the depths of our hearts.

Some will accept Grace sometimes, all will probably deny Grace sometimes. If all of us accepted Grace all the time, well that would be Heaven.

 

[reteeks21]

OK…if the RCC compiled it, then the RCC did the sex abuse scandals.

Now I really think that men in the Catholic church compiled it.

My deal?

I have observed an inconsistency. When it comes to the positive in the history of the Church like the Bible, the Church takes credit for it. When it comes to the negative in the history of the Church, it is men and the Church has no part of it.

Now I think the better answer in both cases is that men in the Catholic church are responsible for both the positive and negative, but I can live with the other too.

If a protestant pastor abuses a kid does that mean the protestant churches should take credit for it? The RCC has never sponsored the idea of child abuse, and the RCC has accepted that some of their priests have sinned gravely, but to expect them to take credit for something some people within the church did then you must apply the same to protestants.

This arguement is no better than when some catholics on here pin abortion and other evils on protestants because they “left” the RCC.

 

[YADA]

No all I am asking for is some consistency.

Either you have
(1) The Catholic church is responsible for the Bible
(2) The Catholic church is responsible for the priest sex abuse scandals

OR

(2) People in the Catholic church are responsible for the Bible
(2) People in the Catholic church are responsible for the priest sex abuse scandals

Now I think option (2) is the better one but your choice.

What you can not be though, is to have it both ways, to take credit for the positive and pass the buck on the negative.

Your Moniker is absolutely correct … sadly, that is about the only portion of your posts that are!

Child sexual abuse in this country is a scandal … it results from the personal sins of the perpetrators …

Fact: … All faiths have had leaders [Priests, Ministers, Rabbis and Imams - youth leaders] who have abused children …

Fact: The Catholic Church does not have a higher incidence of child abuse then other faiths … in fact it is less then the others …

Fact: In the 30’s, 4’s, 50’s and 60’s [the time covered by the Abuse Scandals] schools, churches, and other organizations routinely did not report abuse and “passed the trash” [this is the educational metaphor]. Also, many of the cases in the “Abuse Scadal” were reported to authorities, some of the priests were removed from their priestly office [laicized] and the Church [through its Bishops] acted in an appropriate manner in every way … it did not prevent the lawsuits

Fact: It is family and friends of family [perpetrators known to the victim] who are most likely to offend … as a survivor of child abuse - I know about the crime, the actions of those who should protect [like [parents, law enforcement, doctors etc] that were appropriate and less then appropriate and how attitudes and laws have changed … AND the life long scars … [Personally I find your post very insulting, a trivilization of major harm to children used to ‘score’ some point - without success]

Fact: The “Bible” is actually the “Canon” of the Church … it is a Church document … It encapsulates those writings selected by and authorized by the Church and thus it is a creation of the Church who gifted it to the believing community and the world …

Thus the Church gave you the Bible … the Church did not give us Child Abuse [a crime against innocence that has existed in every age and culture long before the faiths of Judaism or Christianity] …

 

[Cat]

NotTooSmart, one thing that you’re not mentioning is the number of PROTESTANT sexual deviants, molesters, etc.

If you’ve been around Protestant churches at all during the last 50 years, you will have run across this, possibly up close and personal. If you haven’t, then I’m very surprised.

I’ve been involved closely with six evangelical Protestant churches since my childhood, and in two of them, there were cases of child molestation, child rape, and inappropriate sexual behavior with teenagers by a pastor. I suspect that it happened in a third church, but I only have instincts, not facts, so I will not pronounce it for certain.

That’s not including the cases of adulterous or fornicative affairs, which admittedly are between consenting adults, not children or teenagers (although many of the teens are involved in sexual liasons with their peers). Every one of the churches that I was involved with had incidents of adulterous affairs *in the pastorate or among the deacons and elders. *

If you google “Christian and Missionary Alliance letter of apology,” you will find many links to a very sad letter of apology published last year from the Christian and Missionary Alliance denominational headquarters over the rampant abuse that occurred for decades in their missionary schools. The C&MA is working very hard to deal with many people who were damaged by the abuse.

In Protestant churches as you know, when a pastor or leader is caught in sexual misconduct, he is dismissed and often, his ordination by that denomination is retracted forever. He will not work as a pastor of a denominational church ever again.

It’s possible that he will start up a non-denominational church, but the grapevine is very active and usually word of his past misconduct gets around and Christians refuse to sit under his pastorate.

Usually these pastors and leaders caught in sexual misconduct are rejected and shunned by former friends and church associates. Again, if you’ve experienced something different, I’m surprised. I’ve seen this “dismissal and shunning” method used with sexual sinners in all of the evangelical churches that I’ve been closely involved with.

I theorize that there have been just as many, if not more, cases of sexual misconduct and lewd, criminal acts committed in Protestant churches by pastors and leaders as among Catholic churches. It’s just hushed up. And since the pastor is just an ordinary man and is not standing in for Jesus Christ as the priest does in the Catholic Mass, it’s not as shocking. After all, all men sin, but Jesus does not. So a priest who sins grossly brings disrepute to the Lord Jesus.

So if your theory is true, then we can also say that “the Protestant churches brought us the Gospel of Jesus Christ” and “the Protestant churches brought us sex sin of every kind.”

So what you’re implying, then, is that no church is to be trusted, and it’s every man, woman, and child for themselves.

In fact, not even the Bible can be trusted, since it was brought to us by the same heinous church that brought us sexual perversion and other crimes again mankind.

So what do you propose that we trust? Jesus? How do we know Him without a Bible or a Church? Satan is very good at disguising himself and deceiving people–how do we know that the “Jesus” we think we are following is really Jesus?

I would suggest that you change your opening statement to, “The Catholic Church gave us the Bible,” and “over the centuries various men and women in the Catholic Church have given in to temptation and have fallen into gross sexual sin and perversions and murderous campaigns against humanity.”

And likewise, “The Protestant churches have given us many good things, including the baptism of men and women into Christianity,” and “various men and women in the Protestant churches have given in to temptation and have fallen into gross sexual sin and perversions and murderous campaigns against humanity.”

 

[happilycatholic]

OK…if the RCC compiled it, then the RCC did the sex abuse scandals.

Now I really think that men in the Catholic church compiled it.

My deal?

I have observed an inconsistency. When it comes to the positive in the history of the Church like the Bible, the Church takes credit for it. When it comes to the negative in the history of the Church, it is men and the Church has no part of it.

Now I think the better answer in both cases is that men in the Catholic church are responsible for both the positive and negative, but I can live with the other too.

You have a flawed concept of the catholic Church. The Church can be realized in two parts: The Mystical Church and the visible Church. Both are inseparable parts that intersect one another. EDIT: Just because they are inseperable parts, doesn’t mean they are not necessarily separate in their actions. Think of siamese twins.) The Mystical Church is probably best defined as Christ’s Ministry (my own definition, maybe there are others better suited). The visible Church is apparent.

You are confusing the two. When you say,“The Church must be responsible for sex abuse if it is responsible for the canonization of Scripture”, what you are really saying is Christ’s Ministry on earth must be responsible… (I can’t even type that).

This is an immature and rediculous POV, even for someone who doesn’t adhere to catholic doctrine.

When catholics speak of “the Church” we are speaking in term of both AND either. You are speaking in terms of the visible Church when placing blame on men and then speaking of the Mystical Church when speaking of the Revelation of the Sacred Scripture and back again when speaking of the men who canonized Scripture. And yes, it takes cooperation between the two if men are going to enjoy God’s Grace.

You could definitely get a better understanding from the Apologetics forum if you continue to have questions. But I think your questions have been adequately answered, you simply don’t agree.

Peace Be With You

HC

 

[happilycatholic]

How in the wide world of sports is this relevant to anything.

Just be consistent please. Either take credit for both the positive and negative or pass the buck on both the positive and negative.

Actually, the Church (visible) has taken responsibility. Maybe not to your satisfaction or even mine, but it certainly has admitted the problem and addressed the problem.

How do you propose the Church should take responsibility?

The Church doesn’t deny that certain persons associated with it are sinners. The Church freely admits that every single one of its members is a sinner. Even the Pope goes to confession. Even the Saints were indeed sinners.

I’m not sure what church you belong to, but I’m sure they contend that they are correct in their teaching (unless they admittedly teach error) and that each and every one is a sinner (unless they are Saints resurrected and here with us on earth).

Find me a church with no sinners, only saints and I’ll join now.

Oh wait, I can’t, I’m a sinner.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Oh, it is EXTREMELY relevant.

The apostles were the leaders of the church, weren’t they?

All 12 of them.

If one of them went against the authority of the Church/Christ, by your logic you’re claiming that the apostles aren’t the Church. . because it would only be the ‘good actions’ of the 11 that you would weigh. You don’t consider the apostles as The Church but only as individual men.

The apostles are leaders of the church. They are not the church though.

Judas might not be the best example because he was prior to the church age.

But let’s say hypothetically one of the remaining 11 got caught in a scandal during the church age. Then to be consistent, we have either of the following

• The positive deeds of the remaining apostles are owned by the church
• The failure of the one apostle is owned by the church

OR

• The positive deeds of the remaining apostles are not owned by the church
• The failure of the one apostle is not owned by the church/

And yes, I am willing to apply that standard to my own.

Either Assemblies of God is doing fantastic things around the world in its missions department AND Assemblies of God gave the world Bakker and Swaggart.

OR

Men in the Assemblies of God are doing fantastic things around the world in its missions department AND Oh by the way, did you know Bakker and Swaggart were men in the Assemblies of God.

Now I think option 2 is the better way to look at this myself.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So to you the Church is ONLY individuals within it and nothing more?

 

[NotTooSmart]

Actually, the Church (visible) has taken responsibility. Maybe not to your satisfaction or even mine, but it certainly has admitted the problem and addressed the problem.

If the church owns the bad, then it can own the good. I am fair.

But all that I read in these priest sex abuse threads is that the church does not own the bad. It is the responsibililty of individual Catholics and not the church.

That is where the inconsistency lies.

 

[NotTooSmart]

So to you the Church is ONLY individuals within it and nothing more?

Dunno.

But if the negative is just the fault of individuals and the church has absolutely nothing to do with it (which is what I read in these threads), then the same must be true for the positive. If you own the positive then you must own the negative also.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, you need to address the excellent posts above. You ARE insisting on holding the Church to simply a ‘collection of individuals’. If that were the case, then yes, individuals do good and individuals do ill. . .

But the Church is NOT simply a collection of individuals (Scripture supports this. Please read carefully and note Christ’s words, especially when He refers to it as being spotless and without sin.)

You’re attempting to make it something it’s not–purely an ‘earthly’ group of people, some good, some bad, some indifferent. That’s only part. It has a heavenly part as well. . .and nothing evil can be a part of heaven. So. . .

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Dunno.

But if the negative is just the fault of individuals** and the church has absolutely nothing to do with it **(which is what I read in these threads), then the same must be true for the positive. If you own the positive then you must own the negative also.

So if you own the negative must you own the positive? If you believe the Church “gave us” the sex abuse scandal and yet deny that God gave us the Bible through the Church are you not being as inconsistent as you think Catholics are in this?

God bless

 

[lizaanne]

…unless you also want to say that the Catholic church gave us the inquisition and the priest sex abuse scandals.

What a piece of work. You sure did choose your username well.

~Liza

 

[celticsfan1983]

Think of the public school teachers that have committed sex abuse acts. Based on your logic, our education system is responsible for sex abuse, not for educating our children.

By your logic, the public education system as a whole should take the blame for all sex abuse, when in fact, it was individual teachers, not the institution, that did the crime. Also by your logic, since we have to give credit to individuals for the positive, then the third-grade teacher in Iowa is responsible for the good teachers in New York.

You make zero sense and you know it, yet you just want to troll and (successfully) get a rise out of people for who knows what reason? I don’t think you even care about those that were abused: you are using their plight to make yourself feel good for trashing the church.

Do you plan on visiting forums for school teachers to tell them their system is responsible for abuse? After all, aren’t you after consistency?

 

[happilycatholic]

If the church owns the bad, then it can own the good. I am fair.

But all that I read in these priest sex abuse threads is that the church does not own the bad. It is the responsibililty of individual Catholics and not the church.

That is where the inconsistency lies.

There is no inconsistency. There is an error in your understanding.

 

[happilycatholic]

Strawman argument: a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted.

 

[happilycatholic]

NotTooSmart (his choice, not mine) is setting up a fallacious argument in an attempt to prove a point.

The Church is not defined by itself in the way NTS is claiming. The Church is not even defined in the non-catholic community in the way NTS is claiming.

So in summary, the Church as it is defined by NTS cannot be responsible for everything that is bad nor everything that is good, because NTS has not properly defined the Church.

One must first ask the Church how it defines itself, then present an argument based on that definition.

Care to do that NTS? Care to properly argue your position?

HC