The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[NotTooSmart]

NotTooSmart, one thing that you’re not mentioning is the number of PROTESTANT sexual deviants, molesters, etc.

If you’ve been around Protestant churches at all during the last 50 years, you will have run across this, possibly up close and personal. If you haven’t, then I’m very surprised.

See my post up above on Assemblies of God and Bakker and Swaggart. Yes what is good for the goose is good for the gandar.

Oh, BTW, in the short time I have been here…you are one of the handful of Catholic posters here who (1) does not deal in condescension (2) takes me somewhat seriously (3) has intelligent arguments to back what you are saying. So you have earned my respect.

I’ve been involved closely with six evangelical Protestant churches since my childhood, and in two of them, there were cases of child molestation, child rape, and inappropriate sexual behavior with teenagers by a pastor. I suspect that it happened in a third church, but I only have instincts, not facts, so I will not pronounce it for certain.

That’s not including the cases of adulterous or fornicative affairs, which admittedly are between consenting adults, not children or teenagers (although many of the teens are involved in sexual liasons with their peers). Every one of the churches that I was involved with had incidents of adulterous affairs *in the pastorate or among the deacons and elders. *

If you google “Christian and Missionary Alliance letter of apology,” you will find many links to a very sad letter of apology published last year from the Christian and Missionary Alliance denominational headquarters over the rampant abuse that occurred for decades in their missionary schools. The C&MA is working very hard to deal with many people who were damaged by the abuse.

In Protestant churches as you know, when a pastor or leader is caught in sexual misconduct, he is dismissed and often, his ordination by that denomination is retracted forever. He will not work as a pastor of a denominational church ever again.

It’s possible that he will start up a non-denominational church, but the grapevine is very active and usually word of his past misconduct gets around and Christians refuse to sit under his pastorate.

Usually these pastors and leaders caught in sexual misconduct are rejected and shunned by former friends and church associates. Again, if you’ve experienced something different, I’m surprised. I’ve seen this “dismissal and shunning” method used with sexual sinners in all of the evangelical churches that I’ve been closely involved with.

I have not had direct involvement with that myself. But if you have spare time google “John Canning Murder Sebring Florida”.

I have had the “privilege” here of visiting his church when he was a pastor in Maine (at the invititation of my uncle). So I am probably the only one here that has the honor of shaking hands with a convicted multi-murderer.

And that is the truth.

I theorize that there have been just as many, if not more, cases of sexual misconduct and lewd, criminal acts committed in Protestant churches by pastors and leaders as among Catholic churches. It’s just hushed up. And since the pastor is just an ordinary man and is not standing in for Jesus Christ as the priest does in the Catholic Mass, it’s not as shocking. After all, all men sin, but Jesus does not. So a priest who sins grossly brings disrepute to the Lord Jesus.

Well I have not seen any statistics on the subject. But I will tell you what. I will not play “Our church is not as bad in this matter as your church if you don’t play it either”. Because in my stupid opinion…one failure is one too many,

So if your theory is true, then we can also say that “the Protestant churches brought us the Gospel of Jesus Christ” and “the Protestant churches brought us sex sin of every kind.”

Yup. That is consistent.

So what you’re implying, then, is that no church is to be trusted, and it’s every man, woman, and child for themselves.

In fact, not even the Bible can be trusted, since it was brought to us by the same heinous church that brought us sexual perversion and other crimes again mankind.

Not necessarily. In every day life I trust people. So do you. People are sinners. That is life.

So what do you propose that we trust? Jesus? How do we know Him without a Bible or a Church? Satan is very good at disguising himself and deceiving people–how do we know that the “Jesus” we think we are following is really Jesus?

Oh…I am trusting that he is. At some point faith comes in.

I would suggest that you change your opening statement to, “The Catholic Church gave us the Bible,” and “over the centuries various men and women in the Catholic Church have given in to temptation and have fallen into gross sexual sin and perversions and murderous campaigns against humanity.”

And likewise, “The Protestant churches have given us many good things, including the baptism of men and women into Christianity,” and “various men and women in the Protestant churches have given in to temptation and have fallen into gross sexual sin and perversions and murderous campaigns against humanity.”

But both are inconsistent statements. Both are taking credit for the good and passing the buck for the negative.

But they are consistent in that the inconsistency is applied in both places. So that is better.

 

[NotTooSmart]

What a piece of work. You sure did choose your username well.

~Liza

Ah…answer by insulting.

Good job.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Simple. The Catholic Church as a whole put the Bible together. It wasn’t an individual who did it. So the Church can’t accept the blame because it doesn’t control the minds of the select individuals. But since The Church as a whole was responsible for the Bible, it can take credit for that.

I guess I’ll lead a march against the Department of Education since they should take the blame for deviant teachers. Isn’t that how that works, NTS?

 

[NotTooSmart]

NotTooSmart (his choice, not mine) is setting up a fallacious argument in an attempt to prove a point.

The Church is not defined by itself in the way NTS is claiming. The Church is not even defined in the non-catholic community in the way NTS is claiming.

So in summary, the Church as it is defined by NTS cannot be responsible for everything that is bad nor everything that is good, because NTS has not properly defined the Church.

One must first ask the Church how it defines itself, then present an argument based on that definition.

Care to do that NTS? Care to properly argue your position?

HC

You are the one claiming
(1) The Catholic church gave us the Bible
(2) The Catholic church did not give us the priest sex abuse scandals. It was only individual Catholics who did that.

I am the one that is pointing out this logic is inconsistent. I would hope that you would see the inconsistency in taking credit for the positive while passing the buck on the negative.

I don’t need to define the church in order to point out inconsistencies between two parallel statements.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I for one am really interested in NTS’s take on the public school institutions. The NEA is directly responsible for the nation’s educators, is it not? So. . .is the NEA responsible for the individual sex abuse of a given teacher? Answer yes or no, and why.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Simple. The Catholic Church as a whole put the Bible together. It wasn’t an individual who did it. So the Church can’t accept the blame because it doesn’t control the minds of the select individuals. But since The Church as a whole was responsible for the Bible, it can take credit for that.

So every member of the Catholic church at the time put the Bible together. Interesting theory.

I guess I’ll lead a march against the Department of Education since they should take the blame for deviant teachers. Isn’t that how that works, NTS?

If the Dept of Education is taking credit for the good teachers and passing the buck on the deviant teachers, then the Dept of Education is being inconsistent.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

NTS, you need to provide solid proof that the Catholic Church, by definition, is purely and simply composed of individuals and nothing else.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I for one am really interested in NTS’s take on the public school institutions. The NEA is directly responsible for the nation’s educators, is it not? So. . .is the NEA responsible for the individual sex abuse of a given teacher? Answer yes or no, and why.

If the NEA is taking credit for the good teachers, then they are responsible for the bad teachers.

However, I have never heard the NEA take credit to itself for the good teachers in its midst. They always recognize the positive accomplishments of its teachers as something the teachers own.

As such, then it would be consistent for the NEA to acknowledge the negative accomplishments of its teachers as something the teachers own also,

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Before the 12th century, the Catholic Church already suppressed what it saw as heresy, usually through a system of ecclesiastical proscription or imprisonment, but rarely directly resorting to torture or executions — this form of punishment had many ecclesiastical opponents, although some non-secular countries punished heresy with the death penalty.

In the 12th century, in order to counter the spread of Catharism, prosecution of heretics became more frequent. The Church charged councils composed of bishops and archbishops with establishing inquisitions.

In the 13th century, Pope Gregory IX (reigned 1227–1241) assigned the duty of carrying out inquisitions to the Dominican Order. Inquisitors acted in the name of the Pope and with his full authority. They used inquisitorial procedures, a legal practice common at that time. They judged heresy alone, using the local authorities to establish a tribunal and to prosecute heretics. After the end of the twelfth century, a Grand Inquisitor headed each Inquisition. Inquisition in this way persisted until the 19th century.

The sex scandal is not the fact that individual priests ‘succumbed to sin’… the scandal is that the church covered it up and moved these offenders from parish to parish, and did not contact the proper authorities.

All NT books were NOT written before 100CE… and the editting and revision continued for quite some time afterwards.

Your profile says your religion is Isian…What is that?

 

[NotTooSmart]

NTS, you need to provide solid proof that the Catholic Church, by definition, is purely and simply composed of individuals and nothing else.

Why?

All I am doing is pointing out the inconsistencies between two parallel statements claimed over-and-over on these boards.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, the NEA is responsible for the policies in place. To the extent that the teachers cooperate with the polices, they are following the NEA’s rules and thus doing good.

But when they go against the policies, they do evil.

Now you tell me.

Let’s make Jesus our leader. He is, isn’t He?

OK, now Jesus tells you how to live. He do as He says. You will say then that Jesus gets the credit because He was responsible for telling you what to do.

OK, now suppose you DON’T do what Jesus says.

By YOUR LOGIC, Jesus then gets the BLAME because He was the one responsible for telling you what to do.

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

Simple. The Catholic Church as a whole put the Bible together. It wasn’t an individual who did it. So the Church can’t accept the blame because it doesn’t control the minds of the select individuals. But since The Church as a whole was responsible for the Bible, it can take credit for that.

I guess I’ll lead a march against the Department of Education since they should take the blame for deviant teachers. Isn’t that how that works, NTS?

You said it best yet…“control the minds”…

No man controls my mind. No Church controls my mind. The Spirit is the only one authorized to control my mind. I do believe the early church delivered us the bible and what a noble deed. I also believe that our country was once a great godly nation, but through incremental-ism and slight of hand we are now nothing near what we once were as a nation. But that’s another library of information.

So when the Church and my family told me Mary is co-Redemptrix and co-Mediatrix of ALL graces…that’s when I had to flip the switch and pull the plug from the socket. But I guess that teaching is not erroneous because a group of men sent out a decree to people from the standpoint of we are Gods representatives here on earth and we can’t make a mistake when it comes to faith. And people just greatly accept it. And then when they study the Word it is in the spirit to defend those very decrees that they have to stand on. IF you are Catholic you HAVE to stand on those interpretations or you are not Catholic. It makes a huge difference when reading the word of God. Huge difference.

The Roman Catholic Church gave us the bible manuscripts but by no means does it validate them as the foremost authority of the Christian faith. No way no how!

I say this sternly because of the personal resolve I have and not an aggressive posture towards you CelticsFan or ANY one person in the Church …I love you all!

 

[NotTooSmart]

Think of the public school teachers that have committed sex abuse acts. Based on your logic, our education system is responsible for sex abuse, not for educating our children.

By your logic, the public education system as a whole should take the blame for all sex abuse, when in fact, it was individual teachers, not the institution, that did the crime. Also by your logic, since we have to give credit to individuals for the positive, then the third-grade teacher in Iowa is responsible for the good teachers in New York.

If our education system wants to take credit for the positive accomplishments of its school teachers instead of (rightfully) giving the credit to the teachers who deserve the credit, then yes our education system should take credit for the negative accomplishments of its teachers.

It is just being consistent.

You make zero sense and you know it,

Oh really. And I know it.

You must be omniscient in order to read my thoughts and to know what I know.

Should I start considering you Deity if you are omniscient?

yet you just want to troll and (successfully) get a rise out of people for who knows what reason?

Oh so not you know my motive. You must be omniscient then.

I don’t think you even care about those that were abused: you are using their plight to make yourself feel good for trashing the church.

So you are omniscient? Sorry but I am in the presence of the first human that I know that is omniscient.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Ah, the NEA is responsible for the policies in place. To the extent that the teachers cooperate with the polices, they are following the NEA’s rules and thus doing good.

But when they go against the policies, they do evil.

Now you tell me.

Let’s make Jesus our leader. He is, isn’t He?

OK, now Jesus tells you how to live. He do as He says. You will say then that Jesus gets the credit because He was responsible for telling you what to do.

OK, now suppose you DON’T do what Jesus says.

By YOUR LOGIC, Jesus then gets the BLAME because He was the one responsible for telling you what to do.

OK.

So the church should not be taking credit for the Bible. Because Jesus gets the credit because He was responsible for guiding and directing the church in what to do.

OK.

I can live with that too. Thanks for alternative 3. If Jesus gets credit for the Bible then the Church does not own the negative.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Now here’s another little thought for you.

We have a group rof Christians. We’ll call it the Trek Church. The Trek Church is responsible to the great god Kirk.

Kirk gave the Trekkers the Spockian inspiration to assemble the great Manual of the Galaxy from all the various script pages and fan letters etc. that all existed in and among pages of the Great Manual. The Spockian inspiration led the Trekkers to assemble the Great Manual and to set aside the fan letters etc.

Later, some rebelled from the Great Trek and became Romulans and they pulled out pages from the manual.

So. . .who is responsible for the Great Manual being assembled?

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

Your profile says your religion is Isian…What is that?

Isian is the Worship of Isis…The Queen of Heaven…Egyptian Godess

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Isian is the Worship of Isis…The Queen of Heaven…Egyptian Godess

Are you joking? There is no other worship except to worship Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. How do you worship an Egyptian Goddess? What do Isian’s do?

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

Are you joking? There is no other worship except to worship Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. How do you worship an Egyptian Goddess? What do Isian’s do?

I wholeheartedly believe as you. There is Jesus and no other beside him. The Queen of Heaven was not only popular in Egypt but she appeared to many cultures. The bible talks of her in Jeremiah chapters 7 and then 44. This entity is a pretty big enemy of YHWH.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I wholeheartedly believe as you. There is Jesus and no other beside him. The Queen of Heaven was not only popular in Egypt but she appeared to many cultures. The bible talks of her in Jeremiah chapters 7 and then 44. This entity is a pretty big enemy of YHWH.

There is only ONE Queen of Heaven and that is our Blessed Mother.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Right. After all, just because there are false examples of something doesn’t mean that there can’t be a true one.

Zeus was called the Supreme Being and all Father. He wasn’t. . .but God is. We don’t say, "Ah, but because Zeus was falsely called all-Father we cannot possibly refer to GOD as ‘all Father’.

Likewise, a false goddess could be called queen of heaven, but that doesn’t mean that there could never be a TRUE queen simply because somebody had been falsely addressed as queen of heaven, right?