The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

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NotTooSmart said:
…unless you also want to say that the Catholic church gave us the inquisition and the priest sex abuse scandals.

The point being that you can not take credit for the positive while at the same time pass the buck on the negative. A little consistency on this please.
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The Holy Inquisition was not negative. It has nothing in common with the sexual abuse crimes that some priests committed.
 
NotTooSmart said:
Wow.

I mean wow.

I thought as a Christian I had the Holy Spirit of God.

All I ask is for some consistency in what you take credit for as opposed to what you pass the buck on to others.

So instead, I have demons.

When you can’t use reason, you can always fall back on personal attacks.

Oh I am sorry. I forgot this was the ONE TRUE CHURCH I am dealing with here.

This is great stuff./QUOTE
You want to talk about consistency. Fine, let’s talk!

Under your scheme of things all one has to do is to believe and one is saved. Period! Nothing according to your standards can ever separate you from your ultimate salvation. No sin however great or small will ever separate you from your final destination.

I ask you, are you holding Catholics to a different Gospel from the one you believe in?
It should not matter to you at all if some Catholic priests committed these heinous crimes not to mention the bishops who covered them up? They believed in Christ and no crime that they committed should ever separate them from Christ either. So what’s the big deal?
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Let’s take this theory one step further. In your eyes, the Church is not acknowledging these bad things, yet they still exist. But we are acknowledging that we put together the Bible, a historical fact, and you say that’s not true.

But even if we didn’t acknowledge that we put together the Bible, that doesn’t change the fact that it still happened that way. You want us to acknowledge the bad things, but get mad when we acknowledge the good things? That makes zero sense and you know it.

Let me ask you, did you actually come here to make a rational argument, or did you just want to start a flame war? Cause I really doubt you came here with anything that remotely resembles rational thought.
 
Tomster said:
It was the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, who separated which Books should be in the Bible and those books which were to be excluded and canonised the former as authentic.

The next time you open your Bible thank the Catholic Church for giving it to you.
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Then it was the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, that gave us the priest sex abuse scandals.

The next time you open your newspaper and read about this, thank the Catholic Church for giving it to you.
 
Ok, young un’s, maybe it’s because I’m 53 and I lived through the 1960s and 70s when most of these abuse cases being brought up to court were occurring. . .and you know what? It was not ‘just’ the Catholic Church which moved around priests ‘without telling’. It was the PUBLIC schools, and the scouting groups, and the youth groups, etc.

Why? Because the MDs (you know, the PROFESSIONAL people) said so.
Why? Because according to them, people could be CURED of sex abuse and a key proponent of the cure was for the accused to be able to go to a ‘new’ place without any ‘prejudgments’ made of him in order to PROVE that he was cured.
and why else? Because it was felt that it was more detrimental to the health of the VICTIM to have the facts made public. It may surprise people but before Jerry Springer and the various excresence of society ‘let it all hang out’, people actually did not WANT to have themselves or their loved ones in the glare of publicity and the MDS SUPPORTED THIS TOO.

The AMA made a lot of reversals in the 80s and my my isn’t it convenient that nobody will insist on holding judgments made in the 70s and 80s to the standards of what was KNOWN them and insist on holding them to the standards of what is known TODAY?

It’s like insisting that MDs in the 1890s treat diabetics with insulin (oops, not yet invented /available) and hold them responsible for the deaths of those diabetics because “if you’d given them insulin they’d be alive.”
 
Ok, NotTooSmart.

Tell you what, I’ll thank Jesus for giving us Judas along with the other 12 apostles. He DID do that, didn’t He? Was He mistaken?

Oh, and BTW, this isn’t an attempt to make it justifiable or to draw a parallel between the sex scandals and Judas, so save your breath in trying to slam me on that. It is simply a fact that Jesus picked Judas and that picking did not thus ‘nullify’ the other apostles or stain the Church.
 
celticsfan1983 said:
Let’s take this theory one step further. In your eyes, the Church is not acknowledging these bad things, yet they still exist. But we are acknowledging that we put together the Bible, a historical fact, and you say that’s not true.

But even if we didn’t acknowledge that we put together the Bible, that doesn’t change the fact that it still happened that way. You want us to acknowledge the bad things, but get mad when we acknowledge the good things? That makes zero sense and you know it.

Let me ask you, did you actually come here to make a rational argument, or did you just want to start a flame war? Cause I really doubt you came here with anything that remotely resembles rational thought.
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No all I am asking for is some consistency.

Either you have
(1) The Catholic church is responsible for the Bible
(2) The Catholic church is responsible for the priest sex abuse scandals

OR

(2) People in the Catholic church are responsible for the Bible
(2) People in the Catholic church are responsible for the priest sex abuse scandals

Now I think option (2) is the better one but your choice.

What you can not be though, is to have it both ways, to take credit for the positive and pass the buck on the negative.
 
NotTooSmart said:
Then it was the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, that gave us the priest sex abuse scandals.

The next time you open your newspaper and read about this, thank the Catholic Church for giving it to you.
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Wrong again.

The Church gave us the Bible. Nowhere in its teachings does it give us sex abuse scandals. Individual sinners, like you and me, give scandal to Christ’s Mystical Body.

Please respond to post # 22.
 
The Catholic Church followed the guidance of the Spirit in the canon of Scripture. The Spirit worked through the willing cooperation of the Church; the canon WAS NOT WRITTEN WITHOUT that cooperation. That’s fact.

The priests who were guilty of the sex scandal did not follow the guidance of the Spirit and they did NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

And that’s fact.
 
Tomster said:
You want to talk about consistency. Fine, let’s talk!

Under your scheme of things all one has to do is to believe and one is saved. Period! Nothing according to your standards can ever separate you from your ultimate salvation. No sin however great or small will ever separate you from your final destination.
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Who says that is what I believe. And how is it relevant.
Tomster said:
I ask you, are you holding Catholics to a different Gospel from the one you believe in?
It should not matter to you at all if some Catholic priests committed these heinous crimes not to mention the bishops who covered them up? They believed in Christ and no crime that they committed should ever separate them from Christ either. So what’s the big deal?
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So if some Catholic priests committed these heinous crimes and some bishops covered them up, then some Catholic clerics gave us the Bible. And the Catholic Church (the pillar and ground of truth as I am told) is not responsible for either/

That is the way that I see it myself. But if you want it the other way, I am good with that also.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
The Catholic Church followed the guidance of the Spirit in the canon of Scripture. The Spirit worked through the willing cooperation of the Church; the canon WAS NOT WRITTEN WITHOUT that cooperation. That’s fact.

The priests who were guilty of the sex scandal did not follow the guidance of the Spirit and they did NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

And that’s fact.
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If it was individual priests who were guilty of the sex scandals and that did not follow the guidance of the Spirit and did NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

Then

It was individuals who followed the guidance of the Spirit in the canon of the Scripture. The Spirit worked through the willing cooperation of these individuals. The canon WAS NOT WRITTEN WITHOUT their cooperation.

That’s being consistent.
 
1edyson said:
No, **God **gave us the Bible **THROUGH **the Church, the body of Christ here on earth, because as it says in 1Tim 3:15, it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth. Because without an authentic interpreter of what is Truth, we can be led astray, like Martin Luther who threw out 7 books, no matter how good and well our intentions lead us to believe.
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Then the devil gave is the priest sex abuse scandals THROUGH the Church.
 
You can keep trying to make those FOLLOWING the direction of the Spirit and those NOT FOLLOWING the direction of the Spirit ‘prove’ your point. . .but it won’t work.

No matter how often you tell yourself that a lie is the truth, you won’t make it so.
 
Cat said:
To the OP,

I was born and raised evangelical Protestant. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife, and Gary Smalley was my associate pastor. John Ortberg grew up with me in my youth group; I played piano for him many times. Dr. Erwin Lutzer was a regular speaker at our church, as was Dr. Bill Bright, Josh McDowell, and Stuart and Jill Briscoe.

If you are evangelical Protestant, those names should be very familiar to you. I list them only to demonstrate to you that I grew up in an excellent evangelical church and had the best of Christian education.

I would recommend a book called Church History in Plain Language by Bruce L. Shelley. Dr. Shelley is a Protestant history professor at Denver Theological Seminary, and this book is a Protestant version of the history of the Christian Church.

Interestingly, it does not contradict Catholic versions of the history of the Church. I’ve read the book cover to cover three times, and I’ve referred to it hundreds of times. I took it with me to a class on the history of the Catholic Church offered one semester several years ago, to “check the facts” and seek out contradictions between Catholic and Protestant versions of history. There were no contradictions. Dr. Shelley said exactly the same thing in his book that the Catholic professor said.

History is history, grounded in facts, dates, events, people, places.

According to Dr. Shelley, the Catholic Church did indeed give us the Bible.

Chapter 6 of the book explains the process by which the final canon of Scripture was selected, and Dr. Shelley states in conclusion that "the first complete list of books as we have them today came in an Easter letter written in 367 A.D by Bishop Athanasius from Alexandria. Shortly thereafter councils in North Africa at Hippo (393 A.D.) and at Carthage (397 A.D.) published the same list.

I hope that you (and for that matter, anyone else who is interested, including Catholics!) will read this excellent book. It is written at a level that is very understandable even for those of us who are not intellectual history scholars. Dr. Shelley writes in a conversational style, as though he is telling a story, yet the book is thoroughly documented and well-researched with a long list of sources and footnotes.
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Actually if I am reading you correctly, Dr. Shelley is only saying that men in the Catholic church gave us the Bible (unless of course you can provide a statement "the Catholic church gave us the Bible). And I am fine with men in the Catholic church or Catholics gave us the Bible. Then we can say that men in the Catholic church of Catholics gave us the priest sex abuse scandals.

All I am asking for is some consistency here.

(Now I do have some issues with the Catholic church taking total credit for the apostolic church when the fact is that it is common to both of our histories. But … hmm… I will lay that aside. I can live with just consistency between the two for now.
 
Please tell us how Jesus should not have appointed Judas as an apostle. Aren’t the other 11 equally tarred and feathered with Judas’ treachery? Why or why not?
 
NotTooSmart said:
Then the devil gave is the priest sex abuse scandals THROUGH the Church.
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This is rediculous. If your child sins, is he sinning *by *you or through you?

He’s sinning in spite of you and totally separately from you.

:o
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Please tell us how Jesus should not have appointed Judas as an apostle. Aren’t the other 11 equally tarred and feathered with Judas’ treachery? Why or why not?
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How in the wide world of sports is this relevant to anything.

Just be consistent please. Either take credit for both the positive and negative or pass the buck on both the positive and negative.
 
So you’re claiming that men who follow the Church’s teachings should be given exactly the same weight as those who do not follow the teachings?

You’re saying that the Catholic Church (which is composed of men) is not to be given the merit of actions done by those following Christ and His Church?

So just what WOULD you permit the Church?
 
NotTooSmart said:
If it was individual priests who were guilty of the sex scandals and that did not follow the guidance of the Spirit and did NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.

Then

It was individuals who followed the guidance of the Spirit in the canon of the Scripture. The Spirit worked through the willing cooperation of these individuals. The canon WAS NOT WRITTEN WITHOUT their cooperation.

That’s being consistent.
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No one said that Catholics WROTE it. They have said, accurately, that the RCC CONMPILED it. What’s your deal? Are you to just stir up stuff?
 
happilycatholic said:
This is rediculous. If your child sins, is he sinning *by *you or through you?

He’s sinning in spite of you and totally separately from you.

:o
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OK…then the Bible was given in spite of the Church and totally separately from the Church. I can live with that too.
 
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