The Catholic Church: East and West

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BulldogCath:
I was reading this thread, and it is quite confusing to me. I understand what the Deacon explained at the top of the thread, but why would the Catholic church allow the Eastern church, which if I remember by history correctly in the 11th century and has denied the Pope, to come back to the church, keep all of their Orthodox teachings with a Patriarch at the helm, swear allegiance to our Holy Father, which is all nice, but we know that they really dont take any direction from him (they dont have or follow the GIRM, the sacrements are different, the Mass is different, etc etc) but get to be called “Catholic”.

For that matter, what is to stop the Moslems, the Hindus, or some Protestant sects to say that they recognize John Paul II, and want to be “in communion with the Pope” (I guess there is some good to that, maybe monetary, who knows) and be called Catholic but still worship the way they want.

To this Roman Catholic, I dont quite understand why the church would want something like that.
Hi, BulldogCath!

I kinda think you’ve answered your own question. You are looking at Catholicism from a Roman Catholic perspective, as is understandable since that’s the Church you’ve sworn your allegiance to. You must be open to the fact, however, that the Catholic Church is much more than just the Roman Catholic Church. Our Catholic Church and the faith we profess is unique in that we enjoy unity without uniformity. That means that we stand unified in our allegiance to the Holy Father as the Successor of Peter and the spiritual pastor of all Catholics. We also stand unified in our dogmatic beliefs. The wonderful thing about Catholicism, however, is that we are free to express those same beliefs in varying ways. The beliefs are the same, although the way we express them may be very different!

Let me give you an example: in your post, you said that “…the sacraments are different…” This is simply not true. The grace that God imparts upon our souls upon reception of the sacraments is absolutely identical whether you are a Western (Roman) Catholic or an Eastern Catholic. The only difference is the way and timing in which our respective Churches have chosen to administer those sacraments - they’re still the same sacraments, bearing the same grace!

Let’s look at the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. These are called Sacraments of Initiation by our Church (Western and Eastern) because they are the sacraments through which an individual becomes an official member of the Church. Typically, in the Roman Catholic Church, the reception of these three sacraments is spaced over the first 14 or so years of an individual’s life. In the Eastern Catholic Church, these sacraments (Holy Mysteries, as we call them in the East) are all administered at the same time, thus fully completing the individual’s initiation as a full-fledged member of the Church. Now, if I were to look at the Western practice of spreading these sacraments out over 14 years through my Eastern Catholic eyes, I’d be likely to assume that the Western practice is wrong and that a baptized Roman Catholic infant isn’t “fully” Catholic because he’s not yet completed his Church-decreed “initiation.” I can’t do that, though, because as a Catholic, an individual who is just as Catholic as you, I am bound to accept our Church’s stand with regard to unity without uniformity. Our Holy Mother Church has stated that the Western practice of administering the Sacraments of Initiation over time is just as valid, just as Catholic, as the Eastern practice. Though your practice may seem “wrong” to me, I accept that it is proper because our Church says it is!

I ask that you do the same. I ask that you try to look at the differences in the way we express our Catholicism as something that we can celebrate rather than as something that separates us.

Try to look at it this way… ** the Eastern Catholic Churches today
represent exactly the state of the Eastern Churches before the schisms. They are entirely and uncompromisingly Catholics in our strictest sense of the word, quite as much as Latins. They accept the whole Catholic Faith and the authority of the pope as visible head of the Catholic Church, as did St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom.

**My thanks to Vincent, whose words I’ve shamelessly “stolen” from a few posts back in this thread, because they so aptly sum up what I’m trying to say here!
 
a pilgrim:
I ask that you do the same. I ask that you try to look at the differences in the way we express our Catholicism as something that we can celebrate rather than as something that separates us.
Pilgrim (I feel like John Wayne calling you that), I’d like to thank you for a very well-put and thoughtful post. I also hope that Catholics from all rites will partake in the beautiful diversity and breadth of the Catholic Faith. As a Latin Rite Catholic, I rejoice in the fact that I can go to my parish for a Mass according to the current missal, there is also an indult TLM Mass within 1/2 drive time, and just last Sunday I had the pleasure to attend a Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Rite for the first time (it was a bit of a surprise that the Liturgy commemorated the Pope 4 times, compared to the one time in the current Latin liturgy).

I praise God for the ability to worship Him in all these beautiful and diverse ways! Catholics, take advantage of the diversity in your faith!
 
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mtr01:
just last Sunday I had the pleasure to attend a Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Rite for the first time (it was a bit of a surprise that the Liturgy commemorated the Pope 4 times, compared to the one time in the current Latin liturgy).
Mtr,

Are you certain that it was a Ruthenian and not a Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy that you attended? I ask because the Ukrainians commemorate the Pope 4 or 5 times in their Liturgy. I believe that the Ruthenians ordinarily commemorate him once - I may be wrong; my brother, Al/Pilgrim can better address the point.

Many years,

Neil
 
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Amadeus:
The counterpart of the Assyrians in the Catholic wing would the Chaldeans. The other Orientals would be the Copts, the Ehtiopians/Eritreans, and the Armenians.
Mark,

The Orientals also include the Syriac (or Syrian) Orthodox.

In addition to the Assyrian Church (officially, the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East), there is the Ancient Church of the East (also known as the Catholicosate of the East or the Baghdad Patriarchate), which split from the main Assyrian Church in the 1970s, in a dispute about patriarchal succession and residence.

Many years,

Neil
 
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Amadeus:
Fr. Roberson says that another interesting feature of the “Thomas Christians” is the existence of a distinct ethnic community known as the “Southists,” or “Knanaya.”

According to tradition, their origins can be traced to a group of 72 Jewish Christian families who immigrated to India from Mesopotamia in the year 345 AD. There is historical evidence to support this claim. The descendants of these ancient immigrants, who do not intermarry with those outside the community and now number about 300,000, are divided into two ethnic dioceses in Kerala, one belonging to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and the other to the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate.
Amado,

Actually, there are Knanaites among the Syro-Malankara Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well, although they are in numbers too small to merit their own canonical jurisdictions within those Churches. There is a significant Knanaite population in the US, both Catholic and Orthodox. The Catholics have been very vocal in seeking to either remain under the jurisdiction of His Grace Bishop Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry of The Eparchy of Kottayam for the Knanaya Catholics of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, who has personal jurisdiction over all of their people in India, or to have a diocese of personal jurisdiction created for their people within the US - neither of which Rome is about to do.

As to “Saint Thomas Christians”, the usage is prevalent among many Indian Christians other than those of the Latin Church and also includes the faithful of the Mar Thoma Church, a breakaway from the Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church of India, which has aligned itself increasingly with the Anglican Church in India, although it continues to use a somewhat stripped-down version of the Syriac Holy Qurbono.

Many years,

Neil
 
Irish Melkite:
Mtr,

Are you certain that it was a Ruthenian and not a Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy that you attended? I ask because the Ukrainians commemorate the Pope 4 or 5 times in their Liturgy. I believe that the Ruthenians ordinarily commemorate him once - I may be wrong; my brother, Al/Pilgrim can better address the point.

Many years,

Neil
Neil,

Attending Divine Liturgy at Holy Resurrection (a Ruthenian monastery) I did notice that they commemorated the pope anytime they commemorated the bishop.

Deacon Ed
 
For what it’s worth as added info:

Churches

There are 23 Churches sui iuris that, together, constitute the Catholic Church - 1 Western and 22 Eastern. The term sui iuris means, literally, “of their own law”, or self-governing. All 23 are in communion with Rome. Obviously, the most well-known and largest is the Latin Church.

The 22 Eastern Catholic Churches use six different Rites among them. The largest number of Churches (14) use the Byzantine Rite.

As Deacon Ed already said, Eastern Catholic Churches generally represent bodies of faithful whose ancestors entered into communion with Rome from the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Churches. As a consequence, there is a counterpart Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Church to every Eastern Catholic Church except two - the Maronite and Italo-Grieco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Churches, neither of which were ever separated from Rome. (You will occasionally see assertions that some other Eastern Catholics never left communion with Rome, particularly the Melkites and Syro-Malabarese, but those claims aren’t fully supported by historical fact.)

Churches that utilize the Byzantine Rite are sometimes termed Eastern Catholic Churches, with the remainder being referred to as the Oriental Catholic Churches. This distinction mirrors the one that is made among our counterpart or Sister (Orthodox) Churches, where Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches can also be distinguished by the Rite that each uses.

Rites

Originally, there were three Rites - Latin, Alexandrean, and Antiochene; the Byzantine (or Constantinoplian) Rite was added thereafter. These arose from the customs and style of worship in what were then the four most important Christian centers, other than Jerusalem. The differences among the Rites sprung from the fact that uniformity of worship and liturgical practice was difficult to maintain over time, as the number of clergy increased, local cultures and customs began to be woven into the rituals used, and both travel and communication were hampered by geography and the limited means available to make and maintain contact between churches and clerics.

Over time, the four were modified or developed further in new regions. Some variations were so distinctive as to be deemed separate Rites. The Maronite and Armenian Rites, both developed in relative isolation because of geography. The result is that most authorities term the Maronite as a Rite unto itself; while a minority place it within the West Syrian Tradition of the Antiochene Rite, where it originated. As to the Armenian, it is always deemed a separate Rite, although it originated as a Byzantine Rite.

Of late, Chaldean has been added to the list of Rites; historically, it was always classed as belonging to the East Syrian Tradition of the Antiochene Rite. There are two possible reasons to account for the recent separation of it from the Antiochene Rite Churches:
  • the change may relate to a unique aspect observed in the Liturgy of its counterparts, the Assyrians, i.e., that there are no explicit Institution Narrative in the Anaphora they most commonly use (and this was also true of the Chaldeans, prior to their return to communion with Rome); or,
  • it may reflect a desire on Rome’s part to have a Rite associated with each Patriarchate.
The Latin, Armenian, Chaldean, and Maronite Rites are each used by only a single Church sui iuris and the Church’s name and that of the Rite are identical.

(continued)
 
That makes a lot of sense and I am all for unity with the East (I do have problems with some of the “compromises” the RC church has been making to the Moslem and Hindu faiths, but that is another thread). What about the problem with only recognizing three councils, as I think I read somewhere? Does that mean that they dont take any orders from Rome? It is kind of contradictory to say that you are Catholic, in “Communion” with the Pontif, but dont follow any of the councils or teachings. And if, from what I read somewhere from the Deacon that per Vatican II we are to recognize and allow the Eastern churches to remain as they are,etc. I have read some of the V2 documents and they have holes in pastoral doctrine so large you can drive a truck through them, so that is confusing also. But if the RC church, per V2 is to recognize the East…, but what about the East, if they dont recognize V2, and it was an Ecumenical Council, then how are they in “communion”. Not challenging here, just wonder what the Pope, really has any control over. Saying we are in communion means that you follow and adhere to the teachings, but if V2 then said that, well there was a schism and now we dont recognize this schism, you are in communion and are now Catholic, in “communion” but can still do as you have done for the past 10 centuries, then what was accomplished by doing this???

Not arguing, just playing the D_ _ _ _'s advocate as they say (dont like to spell the evil ones name out)
a pilgrim:
Hi, BulldogCath!

I kinda think you’ve answered your own question. You are looking at Catholicism from a Roman Catholic perspective, as is understandable since that’s the Church you’ve sworn your allegiance to. You must be open to the fact, however, that the Catholic Church is much more than just the Roman Catholic Church. Our Catholic Church and the faith we profess is unique in that we enjoy unity without uniformity. That means that we stand unified in our allegiance to the Holy Father as the Successor of Peter and the spiritual pastor of all Catholics. We also stand unified in our dogmatic beliefs. The wonderful thing about Catholicism, however, is that we are free to express those same beliefs in varying ways. The beliefs are the same, although the way we express them may be very different!

Let me give you an example: in your post, you said that “…the sacraments are different…” This is simply not true. The grace that God imparts upon our souls upon reception of the sacraments is absolutely identical whether you are a Western (Roman) Catholic or an Eastern Catholic. The only difference is the way and timing in which our respective Churches have chosen to administer those sacraments - they’re still the same sacraments, bearing the same grace!

Let’s look at the Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist. These are called Sacraments of Initiation by our Church (Western and Eastern) because they are the sacraments through which an individual becomes an official member of the Church. Typically, in the Roman Catholic Church, the reception of these three sacraments is spaced over the first 14 or so years of an individual’s life. In the Eastern Catholic Church, these sacraments (Holy Mysteries, as we call them in the East) are all administered at the same time, thus fully completing the individual’s initiation as a full-fledged member of the Church. Now, if I were to look at the Western practice of spreading these sacraments out over 14 years through my Eastern Catholic eyes, I’d be likely to assume that the Western practice is wrong and that a baptized Roman Catholic infant isn’t “fully” Catholic because he’s not yet completed his Church-decreed “initiation.” I can’t do that, though, because as a Catholic, an individual who is just as Catholic as you, I am bound to accept our Church’s stand with regard to unity without uniformity. Our Holy Mother Church has stated that the Western practice of administering the Sacraments of Initiation over time is just as valid, just as Catholic, as the Eastern practice. Though your practice may seem “wrong” to me, I accept that it is proper because our Church says it is!

I ask that you do the same. I ask that you try to look at the differences in the way we express our Catholicism as something that we can celebrate rather than as something that separates us.

**My thanks to Vincent, whose words I’ve shamelessly “stolen” from a few posts back in this thread, because they so aptly sum up what I’m trying to say here!
 
Irish Melkite:
Mtr,

Are you certain that it was a Ruthenian and not a Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy that you attended? I ask because the Ukrainians commemorate the Pope 4 or 5 times in their Liturgy. I believe that the Ruthenians ordinarily commemorate him once - I may be wrong; my brother, Al/Pilgrim can better address the point.

Many years,

Neil
Hi Neil,

Yes, it was a Ruthenian Liturgy. I actually wasn’t sure when I attended, as I just recently found out about it. The Liturgy is celebrated as a mission at one of the Latin parishes and is simply listed as “Byzantine Catholic” (I also forgot to ask when I was there). Luckily for me one of the Deacons at my parish is good friends with the mission’s Deacon, and assured me it was Ruthenian (our Deacon has some kind of connection with the Melkite Church, I’ll have to get him to clarify this for me…we just spoke in passing).

I double-checked after reading your post, and the Church that supports the mission is Patronage of the Mother of God. I had to search around the website a bit, but it is indeed Ruthenian.
 
Deacon Ed:
Neil,

Attending Divine Liturgy at Holy Resurrection (a Ruthenian monastery) I did notice that they commemorated the pope anytime they commemorated the bishop.

Deacon Ed
This is also the way it was done at the Liturgy I attended. The actual words (which I swiped off the internet) were:

For our holy universal Supreme Pontiff N . . ., the Pope of Rome, for our most Reverend Archbishop and Metropolitan N . . . , for our God-loving Bishop N . . ., for the venerable priesthood, the diaconate in Christ, for all clergy and the people, let us pray to the Lord.

esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy1.html

(except instead of “holy univeral Supreme Pontiff”, I believe we said “holy ecumenical Pontiff”). Not sure if the distinction is worth mentioning or not. Point is, everytime the Archbishop/Metropolitan and Bishop were commemorated, so was the pope.
 
Irish Melkite:
Mtr,

Are you certain that it was a Ruthenian and not a Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy that you attended? I ask because the Ukrainians commemorate the Pope 4 or 5 times in their Liturgy. I believe that the Ruthenians ordinarily commemorate him once - I may be wrong; my brother, Al/Pilgrim can better address the point.

Many years,

Neil
In the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Liturgy we commemorate the Holy Father four times:
  1. During the Litany of Peace;
  2. During the Litany after the Gospel;
  3. During the Great Entrance;
  4. During the commemoration after the Epiclesis.
I just got back from the Divine Liturgy… I counted 'em! 😃
 
THIS THREAD IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP WESTERN CHRISTIANS ON THIS FORUM BECOME AWARE OR MORE AWARE OF THE EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES AND THEIR BEAUTY. I HOPE THERE WILL BE CONSTANT (name removed by moderator)UT FROM OTHERS SO THIS THREAD CAN BE KEPT ON THE TOP OF THE LIST FOR ALL TO SEE.

I think the commemoration of HH JP2 FOUR TIMES (count that – FOUR TIMES) in some Eastern Catholic Liturgies is too wonderful for words.

I have taken the liberty to give this thread a five-star rating to indicate to others its importance.

God bless,

Greg
 
You may commerorate him…but do you listen and follow him? It is fine and dandy, as we pray for the Jews and other churches after the readings, but what really does that mean?

What I am confused about, and I am no expert on the Eastern churchs and no one seems to answer my questions above, is that it seems that the Roman Catholic Church after Vatican II allowed for us, the Western church, of which someone stated there is only one of, to be “in communion” with the eastern churches, which there are like 22, now 23 and growing, and for some reason, as Vatican II did a lot of odd things that I have no reason why happened, decided that we are all one church again after 10 centuries of schism, and that the Eastern churchs can keep all of their traditions and teachings as they are, and we will meet every so often, make good press on Spirit Daily and Catholic News, and we go on our Merry way.

Does not seem like we are really one church, though I would love to believe that we are. I grew up with many Greek Orthodox friends, and they despised the Catholics and used to make fun of us, and how we could actually be loyal to a human being in the Pope and actually think he was supreme and infallible.

Has any of that changed…do the Eastern churchs think the Pope is infallible???

GAssisi said:
THIS THREAD IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HELP WESTERN CHRISTIANS ON THIS FORUM BECOME AWARE OR MORE AWARE OF THE EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES AND THEIR BEAUTY. I HOPE THERE WILL BE CONSTANT (name removed by moderator)UT FROM OTHERS SO THIS THREAD CAN BE KEPT ON THE TOP OF THE LIST FOR ALL TO SEE.

I think the commemoration of HH JP2 FOUR TIMES (count that – FOUR TIMES) in some Eastern Catholic Liturgies is too wonderful for words.

I have taken the liberty to give this thread a five-star rating to indicate to others its importance.

God bless,

Greg
 
Dear BulldogC,

You are definitely confusing the Eastern Catholics with the Orthodox Churches. Yes, of course the Eastern Catholics listen to the Pope. Others have pointed it out, but you seem to have missed it. Further, the presence of Eastern Catholics (as distinct from Eastern Orthodox) within the Catholic Church has been evident for almost as long as the Great Schism. Vatican II did not bring any Eastern Christians into the fold of the Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic hierarchs were already there and participated fully in the Council, some even having a leading voice.

Here you must distinguish between Eastern Catholics (who have suffered greatly in the past for her union with Rome, both from without and within) and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox. Vatican II OFFICIALLY opened up ecumenical relations with the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Churches, NOT the Eastern Catholics who were already full-fledged Catholics for many centuries before Vatican II.

Now, exactly what is it about the Eastern Catholic Churches that you feel they are disobeying the Pope about?

God bless,

Greg
 
You are right I am a bit confused

I started a thread as I was not getting any help, I need to read, are the Eastern Orthodox different than the other Orthodox?
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GAssisi:
Dear BulldogC,

You are definitely confusing the Eastern Catholics with the Orthodox Churches. Yes, of course the Eastern Catholics listen to the Pope. Others have pointed it out, but you seem to have missed it. Further, the presence of Eastern Catholics (as distinct from Eastern Orthodox) within the Catholic Church has been evident for almost as long as the Great Schism. Vatican II did not bring any Eastern Christians into the fold of the Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic hierarchs were already there and participated fully in the Council, some even having a leading voice.

Here you must distinguish between Eastern Catholics (who have suffered greatly in the past for her union with Rome, both from without and within) and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox. Vatican II OFFICIALLY opened up ecumenical relations with the Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Churches, NOT the Eastern Catholics who were already full-fledged Catholics for many centuries before Vatican II.

Now, exactly what is it about the Eastern Catholic Churches that you feel they are disobeying the Pope about?

God bless,

Greg
 
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BulldogCath:
What I am confused about, and I am no expert on the Eastern churchs and no one seems to answer my questions above, is that it seems that the Roman Catholic Church after Vatican II allowed for us, the Western church, of which someone stated there is only one of, to be “in communion” with the eastern churches, which there are like 22, now 23 and growing, and for some reason, as Vatican II did a lot of odd things that I have no reason why happened, decided that we are all one church again after 10 centuries of schism, and that the Eastern churchs can keep all of their traditions and teachings as they are…

Does not seem like we are really one church, though I would love to believe that we are…
Dear BulldogCath,

GAssisi is absolutely correct! This IS a very important thread - in my mind, it’s one of the most important topics in our Church today!

I, too, believe that you may be confusing Eastern Catholic with Eastern Orthodox. Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches have a counterpart Church in Eastern Orthodoxy. The framework within which our theology is expressed is the same… our liturgical traditions are the same… the way we administer the Holy Mysteries is the same… to the average Catholic (read: Roman Catholic) we appear to be much more Orthodox than Catholic. Truly, I can understand your confusion.

There’s a huge difference, however, between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches - the Eastern Catholic Churches fully accept that our Holy Father, John Paul II, the Pope of Rome is the true successor of Peter, the head of Christ’s Church on earth. When we commemorate him during our Divine Liturgy (four times during the Liturgy I attended this morning) we are not merely playing word games - he IS our holy ecumenical Pontiff, just as he is yours.

While it’s true that the Eastern and the Western Churches placed each other in schism in 1054, that schism does not apply to my Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, today. In fact it has not applied since my Church returned to full communion with the See of Peter in 1646 through the Union of Uzhorod. We’ve been just as Catholic as you for the past 359 years! In fact, many of my Eastern Catholic brethren returned to Catholicism even earlier than that (the Ukranian Byzantine Catholic Church, for example, returned to full communion with Rome in 1596, via the Union of Brest).

You are correct in saying that these returning Churches were (are) allowed to maintain their liturgical practices and traditions just as they had practiced them prior to the schism - that was all part of the terms of the reunion! Despite those agreed upon terms, however, over the centuries since our return many of our traditions became watered down, or “Latinized,” due to the overwhelming influence of the Roman Catholic Church (after all, you guys outnumber us Easterners many, MANY times over! 😉 ). Our Holy Father John Paul II has recognized the effect that Latinization has had on the distinct liturgical traditions that the Eastern Catholics bring to our Holy Mother Church, and has mandated that we take the necessary steps to return fully to our ancient sacred practices and liturgical customs, lest we lose them forever.

While our Eastern Orthodox brethren have not yet returned to communion with Rome, the Eastern Catholic Churches have been just as Catholic as you are for quite some time!

Hope this helps clear things up a bit, my friend!
 
Here’s a passage from Pope Leo XIII’s document on the Eastern Churches in union with Rome:
". . .In point of fact there is more importance than can be believed in preserving the Eastern rites. Their antiquity is august, it is what gives nobility to the different rites, it is a brilliant jewel for the whole Church, it confirms the God-given unity of the Catholic Faith.
“For that very reason, even as her Apostolic origin is all the more proven especially by these Churches of the East, at the selfsame moment there shines out and is made manifest these Churches’ original, complete unity with the Roman Church. Nothing else, perhaps, is so breathtakingly effective for illustrating the mark of Catholicity in God’s Church than that striking sight of differing forms of ceremonies and noble examples of the tongues of the ancient past - made all the more noble by their use by the Apostles and Fathers - rendering their submission to the Church. This is almost an image of that most excellent submission that was rendered to the newly-born Christ, the divine Founder of the Church, when the Magi were drawn from the different regions of the East and came to adore Him.”
ORIENTALIUM DIGNITAS, November 30, 1894​
 
Vincent and Pilgrim
That was great, I am learning about something that I have probably been confused about for the past 20 years, you explain nicely
a pilgrim:
Dear BulldogCath,

GAssisi is absolutely correct! This IS a very important thread - in my mind, it’s one of the most important topics in our Church today!

I, too, believe that you may be confusing Eastern Catholic with Eastern Orthodox. Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches have a counterpart Church in Eastern Orthodoxy. The framework within which our theology is expressed is the same… our liturgical traditions are the same… the way we administer the Holy Mysteries is the same… to the average Catholic (read: Roman Catholic) we appear to be much more Orthodox than Catholic. Truly, I can understand your confusion.

There’s a huge difference, however, between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches - the Eastern Catholic Churches fully accept that our Holy Father, John Paul II, the Pope of Rome is the true successor of Peter, the head of Christ’s Church on earth. When we commemorate him during our Divine Liturgy (four times during the Liturgy I attended this morning) we are not merely playing word games - he IS our holy ecumenical Pontiff, just as he is yours.

While it’s true that the Eastern and the Western Churches placed each other in schism in 1054, that schism does not apply to my Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, today. In fact it has not applied since my Church returned to full communion with the See of Peter in 1646 through the Union of Uzhorod. We’ve been just as Catholic as you for the past 359 years! In fact, many of my Eastern Catholic brethren returned to Catholicism even earlier than that (the Ukranian Byzantine Catholic Church, for example, returned to full communion with Rome in 1596, via the Union of Brest).

You are correct in saying that these returning Churches were (are) allowed to maintain their liturgical practices and traditions just as they had practiced them prior to the schism - that was all part of the terms of the reunion! Despite those agreed upon terms, however, over the centuries since our return many of our traditions became watered down, or “Latinized,” due to the overwhelming influence of the Roman Catholic Church (after all, you guys outnumber us Easterners many, MANY times over! 😉 ). Our Holy Father John Paul II has recognized the effect that Latinization has had on the distinct liturgical traditions that the Eastern Catholics bring to our Holy Mother Church, and has mandated that we take the necessary steps to return fully to our ancient sacred practices and liturgical customs, lest we lose them forever.

While our Eastern Orthodox brethren have not yet returned to communion with Rome, the Eastern Catholic Churches have been just as Catholic as you are for quite some time!

Hope this helps clear things up a bit, my friend!
 
Thank you very much, you are right I think you are more Orthodox, I am probably one who loves much of what Vatican II has done in terms of communication and mending fences, but I am and have been against the changing of the Mass. I give you and the Eastern Catholics (now I have it right I think) a whole lot of credit in maintaining that cherished tradition that you have, do not let it slip away, it is not disobedient to the Pope, but refuse to let your mass go the wayside as the Traditional Latin Mass has gone here in the West.

You are very well educated on the subject
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Vincent:
Here’s a passage from Pope Leo XIII’s document on the Eastern Churches in union with Rome:

ORIENTALIUM DIGNITAS, November 30, 1894​
 
Dear BullDogC,

With regards to your question, “Are Eastern Orthodox different from other Orthodox?”

There are actually three branches of non-Catholic Eastern Christians whose origins stem from three different splits within the Church.

The first split occurred around the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus regarding the teachings of Nestorius. These Christians are known as the Assyrian Church of the East.

The second split occurred around the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon regarding the Monophysite controversy. These Christians are known as the Oriental Orthodox.

The third split occurred a few centuries after the Seventh Ecumenical Council of Constantinople primarily over issues of papal authority and the filioque. These Christians became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, whereas the other body maintained the name of Catholic Church centered in Rome – the body to which you and I belong.

Within only a few centuries, many Christians from these three separate bodies came back into union with the Catholic Church of Rome. These Christians are known as Eastern Catholics.

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Greg
 
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