The Catholic Church: East and West

[oudave]

Deacon Ed:

There seems to be some confusion over what constitutes the Catholic Church. Because of that, I thought I’d offer this look at the Church, its structure and hierarchy.

The Catholic Church is composed of 22 (or 23) *sui iuris *(Latin for “in their own right”) Churches. Each of these Churches is an independent Church that is in communion with Rome. By virtue of being in communion with Rome the Pope has authority over the Churches, although this is usually exercised through the leadership of the Churches.

The Roman Catholic (or, more accurately, the Latin Rite Catholic) Church is far and away the largest with over 1 billion members. The head of the Roman Catholic Church is the Bishop of Rome who, because he is the Bishop of Rome is also the Patriarch of the West and the Pope. Ranking below a patriarch are the Cardinals of the Catholic Church. This is an honorary title give to certain bishops. It may be because they are the head of a Curial Congregation (Cardinal Deacon), head a major diocese (Cardinal Priest), or are the pastor of one of the six major churches in rome (Cardinal Bishop). Archbishops are the head of major dioceses (Archdiocese) and bishops are the heads of dioceses. All bishops have a diocese for which they are responsible. Auxiliary bishops have a “titular diocese” – that is, a diocese that no longer exists. This is in keeping with the old tradition of "one city, one bishop). Working with the bishops are priests and deacons.

The primary form of worship for Roman Catholics is the Mass which may also be called the Liturgy.

The **Eastern Catholic **Churches comprise the remainder of the Catholic Church. They may be headed by a Patriarch (Armenian, Chaldean, Coptic, Maronite, Melkite and Syriac Churches), a Major Archbishop (Syro-Malabar and Ukrainian Churches), or Episcopal Churches (Bulgarian, Albanian, Croatian, Greek, Hungarian, Italo-Albanian, Ruthenian and Slovakian Churches). There are also Eastern Catholic Churches with no hierarchy of their own (Byelorussian, Georgian and Russian). These function directly under the authority of the local Roman Catholic bishop (although, in Los Angeles, the Russian Catholic Church, while technically under Cardinal Roger Mahony, functions under the auspices of the Melkite Eparch, Abp. Cyril).

Eastern Catholic Churches generally came into communion with Rome from an Orthodox Church. The exceptions are the Maronite and Italo-Albanian Churches which have no Orthodox counterpart. Following the dictates of Vatican II, these Churches retain what is authentic to their tradition including worship, vestments, theology and disciplines (for example, Eastern Catholic priests may, in general, be married provided they were married before they were ordained to the diaconate). Bishops are always drawn from celibate clergy, and usually from the ranks of the monastics.

Eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as Roman Catholics. Because of the nature of the relationship with Rome, any Catholic (whether Latin or Eastern) may partake of the sacraments/mysteries at any Catholic church, whether Eastern or Roman.

Deacon Ed

Hi
What’s up with this? Catholics keep telling me that there is only 1 Catholic church, and that the Protestants can’t agree on anything thats why there are so many different churches. Thanks for shedding some light.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

oudave:

Hi
What’s up with this? Catholics keep telling me that there is only 1 Catholic church, and that the Protestants can’t agree on anything thats why there are so many different churches. Thanks for shedding some light.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Dave,

There is only one Chruch because we are a communion of Churches. In a sense, it’s like the United States. There is one country composed of 50 states – the Catholic Chruch is one Chruch composed of 23 Churches, each of whom professes the same faith, are in communion with each other (which means the sacraments/mysteries are accessible to any Catholic in any of the 23 Chruches).

The major difference between the Catholic Chruch and the Protestant Churches is that the Protestant Churches do not have a unified theology but, rather, one that varies from Church to Church while the Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Deacon Ed

 

[oudave]

Deacon Ed:

Dave,

There is only one Chruch because we are a communion of Churches. In a sense, it’s like the United States. There is one country composed of 50 states – the Catholic Chruch is one Chruch composed of 23 Churches, each of whom professes the same faith, are in communion with each other (which means the sacraments/mysteries are accessible to any Catholic in any of the 23 Chruches).

The major difference between the Catholic Chruch and the Protestant Churches is that the Protestant Churches do not have a unified theology but, rather, one that varies from Church to Church while the Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Deacon Ed

Hi
This sounds like a response from Bill Clinton,
Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Here is what the Catholic church has done, when a member church didnt follow the ever changing doctrines of the church in Rome they just booted that church out of the club and called them Protestant. Todays catholic church is NOT the same church of which Christ laid the foundation.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[dennisknapp]

oudave:

Hi
This sounds like a response from Bill Clinton,
Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Here is what the Catholic church has done, when a member church didnt follow the ever changing doctrines of the church in Rome they just booted that church out of the club and called them Protestant. Todays catholic church is NOT the same church of which Christ laid the foundation.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

And your proff is where?..

Peace

 

[HagiaSophia]

oudave:

Todays catholic church is NOT the same church of which Christ laid the foundation.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Where precisely then, do you fid the Church of which Christ laid the foundation?

 

[Maccabees]

HagiaSophia:

Where precisely then, do you fid the Church of which Christ laid the foundation?

He’s got to be in one of the thousands of protestant denoms most likely the one I am going too.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

oudave:

Hi
This sounds like a response from Bill Clinton,
Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Here is what the Catholic church has done, when a member church didnt follow the ever changing doctrines of the church in Rome they just booted that church out of the club and called them Protestant. Todays catholic church is NOT the same church of which Christ laid the foundation.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Dave,

Sorry, your post is not even close to being accurate. It is more precise to say that when one of the Churches expressed a theology that was not in harmony with what the Church taught then a council was called to address it. The errant Church could then correct the error or leave the communion of Churches. Both took place: sometimes we see the theology corrected, other times we see the errant Church leave communion.

You see, since there is only one Truth you cannot have both Truth and error as part of the Church. This is what separates the Catholic Church from the Protestant denominations. Each of the different denominational churches has embraced one or more errors in its teaching – and each time someone disagrees they leave and form a new church rather than addressing the error.

Deacon Ed

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Hi
This sounds like a response from Bill Clinton,
Catholic Churches (all 23 of them) have the same theology although it may be expressed differently.

Here is what the Catholic church has done, when a member church didnt follow the ever changing doctrines of the church in Rome they just booted that church out of the club and called them Protestant. Todays catholic church is NOT the same church of which Christ laid the foundation.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Dave, The Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded,the church you are in was started by a Mr.Cambell and is a little more than 100 years old.God Bless

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I’m curious. Why is a thread entitled “The Catholic Church” in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the Forum?

 

[oudave]

Deacon Ed:

Dave,

Sorry, your post is not even close to being accurate. It is more precise to say that when one of the Churches expressed a theology that was not in harmony with what the Church taught then a council was called to address it. The errant Church could then correct the error or leave the communion of Churches. Both took place: sometimes we see the theology corrected, other times we see the errant Church leave communion.

You see, since there is only one Truth you cannot have both Truth and error as part of the Church. This is what separates the Catholic Church from the Protestant denominations. Each of the different denominational churches has embraced one or more errors in its teaching – and each time someone disagrees they leave and form a new church rather than addressing the error.

Deacon Ed

Hi
Sorry Ed, but I’m alot more accurate than you will admit. I married into a very devout Catholic family and have talked with many of them. Some believe in this because that is what they are taught, others believe in that. Some believe in purgatory, some don’t. There is one thing in common with them, they are not incouraged to read the Bible. I have been told on this website many times that I do not have the authority to interprit scripture for myself, yet the word of God tell’s ME TO TEST EVERYTHING and to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling . The Catholic church taught this because they don’t want people thinking for themselves when it comes to scripture. I know that there many beliefs in the protestant world but that is because of peoples unwillingness to follow the word of God and follow there own desires. I believe that the Bible is very clear on how we should live our life. Almost every former Catholic I know learned the truth from the Bible and not the Catholic church.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Fr Ambrose:

I’m curious. Why is a thread entitled “The Catholic Church” in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the Forum?

Hello, Father I think it was to bring on some of the needlers and accusers God Bless

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Deacon Ed:

You see, since there is only one Truth you cannot have both Truth and error as part of the Church. This is what separates the Catholic Church from the Protestant denominations.

Dear Father Deacon,

Do you feel like popping into the thread “Anglicans to Rome?” and start reading at Message # 172.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=28244&page=2&pp=100

Here is the astounding information released by the Traditional Anglican Church, a 500,000 strong Church in negotiations petitioning Rome for unity:

I’ve been asked to keep you appraised of any DEVELOPMENTS in the negotiations between Pope John Paul II and Archibishop Hepworth of the Traditional Anglican Communion.

This may turn out to be a real shocker, and may cause those Anglicans who’ve rejected Re-Union with Rome to reconsider their position…

…I was informed this morning that an offer has been made by Pope John Paul II and preliminarily accepted by Archbishop Hepworth for the following: Full Communion…The Traditional Anglican Communion, hereinafter to be called the Anglican Catholic Church would NOT have to accept Papal Infallibility, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary or the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

To be told that Rome will approve of Catholics who deny such key dogmas is mind boggling!

 

[Kotton]

Fr Ambrose:

I’m curious. Why is a thread entitled “The Catholic Church” in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the Forum?

Very simple. To impart correct information to non-Catholics.

Kotton

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

HagiaSophia:

Where precisely then, do you fid the Church of which Christ laid the foundation?

Jerusalem? Ex oriente lux.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Fr Ambrose:

Jerusalem? Ex oriente lux.

Father, Hagia was reponding to Oudave who belives You and I and everybody here are going straight to hell He is a member of the church of Christ cult that was started a little over a hundred years ago.They believe they are the only ones going to heaven, musical instruments aren’t allowed in worship,miracles ceased after the death of the last apostle,among other things.God Bless

 

[BulldogCath]

Father,

I could not agree with you more, in all of your posts on this string. I fear that the church, for the sake of “being in communion”, is allowing these schismatic churches to say they are Catholic but not adhere to any of the teachings. I am also questioning some of the posts of the Deacon, as they seem very un-Catholic to me. To be all happy and joyful over the Anglicans but denounce papal infallibility is mind boggling. I started a string on some of the Eastern Churches, which I think I understand better now, but do these churches, which are in communion and Catholic, and per Vatican II allowed to be called Catholic and keep all of their traditions, do they show and illustrate the 4 Marks of the church? I know that teaching is one of the 4, but I guess that a case could be made that they do as long as the teachings have not changed. No expert here, but I would think that maybe with 1 Western Catholic Church and 23 or so Eastern, maybe us in the West should wait for the 23 Eastern churchs to be come 1,and then negotiate with the 1 instead of the 23. But I guess that would make to much sense.
Fr Ambrose:

I’m curious. Why is a thread entitled “The Catholic Church” in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the Forum?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

oudave:

Hi
Sorry Ed, but I’m alot more accurate than you will admit. I married into a very devout Catholic family and have talked with many of them. Some believe in this because that is what they are taught, others believe in that. Some believe in purgatory, some don’t. There is one thing in common with them, they are not incouraged to read the Bible. I have been told on this website many times that I do not have the authority to interprit scripture for myself, yet the word of God tell’s ME TO TEST EVERYTHING and to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling . The Catholic church taught this because they don’t want people thinking for themselves when it comes to scripture. I know that there many beliefs in the protestant world but that is because of peoples unwillingness to follow the word of God and follow there own desires. I believe that the Bible is very clear on how we should live our life. Almost every former Catholic I know learned the truth from the Bible and not the Catholic church.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.

Dave,

I have no control over what individuals choose to believe or not. I said, and I repeat, the Catholic Church (all 23 sui iuris Churches) teach the same theology. If an individual choose to believe one teaching and reject another that doesn’t speak to the truth of the Church but to the individual.

And, yes, St. John does tell us to test all spirits to see if they are of God. Now, how are we supposed to do that? Do we apply our own individual standards and judgement? Of course not! Satan is much too clever for that to be effective. Instead, we have to look to how the Church Fathers, especially the Apostolic Fathers, understood the teachings of the Apostles and of Jesus. Then we apply what they knew to what we see today.

Let’s look at some simple examples:

The Church Fathers beleived that the Eucharist was really the Body and Blood of Jesus. If you are a member of a Church that does not believe that, the you have accepted a false teaching because it is not in harmony with the apostolic teaching.

The Church Fathers believed that baptism was necessary for salvation. If you are a member of a Church that belives that baptism is merely symbolic, or unncessary then you have accepted a false teaching.

St. Paul is clear that the hierarchichal structure of the Church consists oif a bishop (episcopos), priests/presbeters (presbuteroi) and deacons (diaconoi) and that these were positions to which people were ordained (not volunteered) – see St. Ignatius of Antioch for this. If you are a member of a Church that does not believe this then you have accepted something that is neither scriptural nor part of the apostolic tradition.

And, BTW, we generaly address clergy by their titles, even on boards like this if they sign their posts with a title.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

BulldogCath:

Father,

I could not agree with you more, in all of your posts on this string. I fear that the church, for the sake of “being in communion”, is allowing these schismatic churches to say they are Catholic but not adhere to any of the teachings. I am also questioning some of the posts of the Deacon, as they seem very un-Catholic to me. To be all happy and joyful over the Anglicans but denounce papal infallibility is mind boggling. I started a string on some of the Eastern Churches, which I think I understand better now, but do these churches, which are in communion and Catholic, and per Vatican II allowed to be called Catholic and keep all of their traditions, do they show and illustrate the 4 Marks of the church? I know that teaching is one of the 4, but I guess that a case could be made that they do as long as the teachings have not changed. No expert here, but I would think that maybe with 1 Western Catholic Church and 23 or so Eastern, maybe us in the West should wait for the 23 Eastern churchs to be come 1,and then negotiate with the 1 instead of the 23. But I guess that would make to much sense.

they arelady are one! One in faith, one in teaching, one in all that matters. You seem to be pushing for uniformity of practice – and that has never been a hallmark of the Church. As you correctly posted in another thread, the four marks of the Church are that she is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. In Part IV of the Baltimore Catechism the meaning of “One” is made clear: one in government – which the Churches are since all are in communion with Rome and, by virtue of that, the pope as “direect and immediate” authority over them – although he generally acts through the Church’s various structures such as the synod of bishops. We are also one in doctrine – that is, one in faith.

The mark of “One” does not mean we all use the same “Mass” (and never did mean that, even after the Council of Trent since any liturgical practice that was more than 200 years old was permitted to continue).

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Fr Ambrose:

I’m curious. Why is a thread entitled “The Catholic Church” in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section of the Forum?

I placed the thread here because there was a purported Catholic who was denigrating all the Eastern Catholic Churches and suggesting that we need to return to the Orthodox. Of course, it’s not the first time we’ve heard that :nope: !

Deacon Ed

 

[BulldogCath]

Ok, that does make sense also, I am all for the Eastern churchs, I think they are beautiful people, devout, devout to the point that I think us in the West should take notice after the changes we have gone through.

I have been working through on the strings with others help the difference between the Eastern Catholic Orthodox (who are in communion) and Eastern Orthodox, need to keep reading on this
thankd Deacon
Deacon Ed:

they arelady are one! One in faith, one in teaching, one in all that matters. You seem to be pushing for uniformity of practice – and that has never been a hallmark of the Church. As you correctly posted in another thread, the four marks of the Church are that she is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. In Part IV of the Baltimore Catechism the meaning of “One” is made clear: one in government – which the Churches are since all are in communion with Rome and, by virtue of that, the pope as “direect and immediate” authority over them – although he generally acts through the Church’s various structures such as the synod of bishops. We are also one in doctrine – that is, one in faith.

The mark of “One” does not mean we all use the same “Mass” (and never did mean that, even after the Council of Trent since any liturgical practice that was more than 200 years old was permitted to continue).

Deacon Ed