The Catholic Church: East and West

[Deacon_Ed]

Fr Ambrose:

Dear Father Deacon,

Do you feel like popping into the thread “Anglicans to Rome?” and start reading at Message # 172. …

To be told that Rome will approve of Catholics who deny such key dogmas is mind boggling!

I will be happy to “pop in.” I note that Cardinal Ratzinger has said, at least twice, that should a reunion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches take place, the Orthodox would be bound only by the first secon councils and the remainder would be seen as Western Synods. This would eliminate the issue of papal infallibility for the Orthodox; although, frankly, I’ve seen some support for the exercise of the Church’s charism of infallibility exercised by the pope – but only when summarizing a particular point with the full consent of all Churches. This is, in effect, what Vatican II stated in completing the work of Vatican I on this issue.

Deacon Ed

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Deacon Ed:

I placed the thread here because there was a purported Catholic who was denigrating all the Eastern Catholic Churches and suggesting that we need to return to the Orthodox. Of course, it’s not the first time we’ve heard that :nope: !

Over recent years the impresssion has been strengthening that some in Rome wish that the Eastern Catholics would return to the Orthodox. It would expedite the ecumenical dialogue by removing a major hindrance (at least as perceived by the Orthodox Churches.)

 

[Deacon_Ed]

BulldogCath:

Ok, that does make sense also, I am all for the Eastern churchs, I think they are beautiful people, devout, devout to the point that I think us in the West should take notice after the changes we have gone through.

I have been working through on the strings with others help the difference between the Eastern Catholic Orthodox (who are in communion) and Eastern Orthodox, need to keep reading on this
thankd Deacon

Okay, perhaps this will help – we are not “Eastern Catholic Orthodox,” just “Eastern Catholics.” Some of us, especially us Melkites, call ourselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome” – but that is because we have a special call by the Church to be a bridge between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. We Melkites have been more active in removing Latinizations and seeking to rediscover our authentic roots.

The Melkite Church goes back to Antioch where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Our first bishop was a guy named Peter – who went on to be the first Pope of Rome!

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Fr Ambrose:

Over recent years the impresssion has been strengthening that some in Rome wish that the Eastern Catholics would return to the Orthodox. It would expedite the ecumenical dialogue by removing a major hindrance (at least as perceived by the Orthodox Churches.)

Dear Father,

At the same time, the Orthodox really don’t want us back – I guess there’s a fear that we might be “contaminated” by our contact with Rome!

We get it from both sides, but are used to it by now.

Deacon Ed

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Deacon Ed:

At the same time, the Orthodox really don’t want us back – I guess there’s a fear that we might be “contaminated” by our contact with Rome!

“Be not fearful but believing!”

Are you living in the States? The most obvious example there is the return to Orthodoxy set in motion by Saint Alexis Toth.

By the time of his death in 1909, St Alexis, a former Greek Catholic priest, had brought 65 Greek Catholic communities in the US with some 20,000 parishioners out of Catholicism and into Orthodoxy. The descendents of these former Greek Catholics still figure prominently in the Orthodox Church in America.

Alexis Toth and the Uniate Return to Orthodoxy
oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Church-Introduction/North-America-1794-1994/Immigration-and-Conversion.html#toth

Life of Saint Alexis
oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/OCA/St-Alexis-Toth/

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Fr. Ambrose:

Yes, Fr. Toth was horribly mistreated by Abp. Ireland.

Deacon Ed

 

[a_pilgrim]

BulldogCath:

I started a string on some of the Eastern Churches, which I think I understand better now, but do these churches, which are in communion and Catholic, and per Vatican II allowed to be called Catholic and keep all of their traditions, do they show and illustrate the 4 Marks of the church?

BulldogCath,

As I told you earlier my Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, has been in communion with the See of Peter since the year 1646! It was the Union of Uzhorod which “allowed” us to call ourselves Catholic (because we ARE Catholic!) and keep all of our traditions. This all occurred more than 300 years before Vatican II. It was NOT Vatican II that “allowed” us, as you say, to call ourselves Catholic. NOR was it Vatican II that granted us “permission” to express our theology and shared dogmatic beliefs according to the ancient apostolic traditions of our sui iuris Church. All of this was arranged and agreed to long before Vatican II. We were welcomed back into communion with Rome 359 years ago in the same format that we existed in communion with her for well over 1000 years prior to the schism!

What Vatican II did do was to re-emphasize the fact that we are and have been for over 300 years just as Catholic as you! I’m sorry to see that so many of my fellow Catholics seem to have missed this point.

Yes, I am in communion with Rome and yes, I am Catholic and yes, my Church does employ liturgical practices that are quite different than yours. As a Catholic, I accept and embrace your Western form of Catholicism as it is - one of several methods of expressing and manifesting our Holy Mother Church’s dogmatic beliefs…

…I repeat - one of several methods, ***NOT ***the only one!

I ask that you show your Eastern Catholic brethren the same respect and acceptance.

 

[BulldogCath]

Deacon

That was very helpful, for some reason, when ever I see the word “Orthodox” in front of the word “Church” I assume it is schismatic, but not in this case as you explained with your church
thank you again
Deacon Ed:

Okay, perhaps this will help – we are not “Eastern Catholic Orthodox,” just “Eastern Catholics.” Some of us, especially us Melkites, call ourselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome” – but that is because we have a special call by the Church to be a bridge between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. We Melkites have been more active in removing Latinizations and seeking to rediscover our authentic roots.

The Melkite Church goes back to Antioch where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Our first bishop was a guy named Peter – who went on to be the first Pope of Rome!

Deacon Ed

 

[BulldogCath]

Deacon
That was very helpful, for some reason, when ever I see the word “Orthodox” in front of the word “Church” I assume it is schismatic, but not in this case as you explained with your church
thank you again
Deacon Ed:

Okay, perhaps this will help – we are not “Eastern Catholic Orthodox,” just “Eastern Catholics.” Some of us, especially us Melkites, call ourselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome” – but that is because we have a special call by the Church to be a bridge between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. We Melkites have been more active in removing Latinizations and seeking to rediscover our authentic roots.

The Melkite Church goes back to Antioch where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Our first bishop was a guy named Peter – who went on to be the first Pope of Rome!

Deacon Ed

 

[BulldogCath]

Pilgrim

I have deep respect for the Eastern churches, just, I must admit the number (23), some Catholic, some in communion, others that are Orthodox and not in communion, is overwhelming to the average Western Roman Catholic, where there is but 1 church.

I am very glad that your church, and we are one, as that is what we should all strive for. One question is why was your church not part of the Catholic church till 1646. Was it the filloque, and the Nicene Creed?
a pilgrim:

BulldogCath,

As I told you earlier my Church, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, has been in communion with the See of Peter since the year 1646! It was the Union of Uzhorod which “allowed” us to call ourselves Catholic (because we ARE Catholic!) and keep all of our traditions. This all occurred more than 300 years before Vatican II. It was NOT Vatican II that “allowed” us, as you say, to call ourselves Catholic. NOR was it Vatican II that granted us “permission” to express our theology and shared dogmatic beliefs according to the ancient apostolic traditions of our sui iuris Church. All of this was arranged and agreed to long before Vatican II. We were welcomed back into communion with Rome 359 years ago in the same format that we existed in communion with her for well over 1000 years prior to the schism!

What Vatican II did do was to re-emphasize the fact that we are and have been for over 300 years just as Catholic as you! I’m sorry to see that so many of my fellow Catholics seem to have missed this point.

Yes, I am in communion with Rome and yes, I am Catholic and yes, my Church does employ liturgical practices that are quite different than yours. As a Catholic, I accept and embrace your Western form of Catholicism as it is - one of several methods of expressing and manifesting our Holy Mother Church’s dogmatic beliefs…

…I repeat - one of several methods, ***NOT ***the only one!

I ask that you show your Eastern Catholic brethren the same respect and acceptance.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father,

You mention that it would help facilitate matters to let the Eastern Catholics return to Orthodoxy. How would the Orthodox Church then accept a multitude of Orthodox who accept the infallibility and necessary office of the Pope? Are these people going to be punished or excommunicated or forced to recant their views? You see, Father, your suggestion really demeans the intelligence of Eastern Catholics. Eastern Catholics are proud of their Catholic identity, make no mistake about it.

Seriously, though, how would the Orthodox Church handle such Christians?

God bless,

Greg

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

BulldogCath:

Pilgrim

I have deep respect for the Eastern churches, just, I must admit the number (23), some Catholic, some in communion, others that are Orthodox and not in communion, is overwhelming to the average Western Roman Catholic, where there is but 1 church.

I am very glad that your church, and we are one, as that is what we should all strive for. One question is why was your church not part of the Catholic church till 1646. Was it the filloque, and the Nicene Creed?

Bulldog,
I see you are still haveing problems with this.

There are 23 separate Churches that make up the Catholic Church. All of them are Catholic, all of them are in communion.

But you are correct, there is only one Catholic Church. That is the Church all of the 23 make up together. The Roman (or Latin) Catholic Church, which you belong to, is just one of those 23 Churches.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

BulldogCath:

I have deep respect for the Eastern churches, just, I must admit the number (23), some Catholic, some in communion, others that are Orthodox and not in communion, is overwhelming to the average Western Roman Catholic, where there is but 1 church.

There are 22 Eastern Catholic Churches and 1 Western Catholic Church – none of those are Orthodox, they are all in communion with Rome. The Orthodox Churches are outside of this group for they are not in communion with Rome.

I am very glad that your church, and we are one, as that is what we should all strive for. One question is why was your church not part of the Catholic church till 1646. Was it the filloque, and the Nicene Creed?

With the exception of the Maronites and the Italo-Albanian Churches all the other Eastern Catholic Churches were part of the Orthodox Church. They were not part of the Catholic Church for a number of reasons – but mostly because communion between East and West had slowly disappeared (although the sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders certainly didn’t help matters very much).

As different Eastern Catholic Churches worked through their own identity it became clear to them that union with Rome was a good thing. The Catholic Church has worked, with greater or lesser diligence, to bring the Eastern Churches into communion with Her. This has been accomplished in the case of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches.

Note, BTW, that the *filioque *is not used by the Pope when he celebrates the Divine Liturgy with the Eastern Catholics because it is not a part of our heritage, it is a part of the West’s attempt to deal with a particular heresy.

Deacon Ed

 

[GAssisi]

Dear Father A,

Archbishop Ireland, God bless his soul and forgive him, was a man with a little mind who did not have the Christian virtues of patience, love, or understanding. Hopefully, one will not find such close-mindedness among Catholics today – ignorance, perhaps, but not close-mindedness – especially among the priests and hierarchs. Perhaps it is not likely that there will be any reason for Eastern Catholics today to make a great migration over the Dnieper.

God bless,

Greg

 

[Deacon_Ed]

GAssisi:

Dear Father A,

Archbishop Ireland, God bless his soul and forgive him, was a man with a little mind who did not have the Christian virtues of patience, love, or understanding. Hopefully, one will not find such close-mindedness among Catholics today – ignorance, perhaps, but not close-mindedness – especially among the priests and hierarchs. Perhaps it is not likely that there will be any reason for Eastern Catholics today to make a great migration over the Dnieper.

God bless,

Greg

Greg,

One would hope that the bigotry and intolerance that Abp. Ireland showed to Fr. Toth will not be repeated!

Deacon Ed

 

[Maccabees]

“Be not fearful but believing!”

Are you living in the States? The most obvious example there is the return to Orthodoxy set in motion by Saint Alexis Toth.

By the time of his death in 1909, St Alexis, a former Greek Catholic priest, had brought 65 Greek Catholic communities in the US with some 20,000 parishioners out of Catholicism and into Orthodoxy. The descendents of these former Greek Catholics still figure prominently in the Orthodox Church in America.

Alexis Toth and the Uniate Return to Orthodoxy
oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Church-Introduction/North-America-1794-1994/Immigration-and-Conversion.html#toth

Life of Saint Alexis
oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/OCA/St-Alexis-Toth/

Father I understand you may be living in 1909 but the Catholic Church is not her ecunemical stance and her outlook on the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches has changed a lot for the better since then. We did have a little get together Vatican 2 that was a great advangtage to the Eastern Catholic Church having thier own independence and a return to their Eastern heritage while maintaing union with Rome. Did Rome have certain members make a lot of mistakes with Eastern Catholics 100 years ago yes she did and she paid for it when she lost these poeple to Orthodoxy. Things have changed for the better for the Eastern Catholic churches since vatican 2 you don’t have Irate Irish priest telling them what to do like a 100 years ago for one thing.

 

[GAssisi]

Dear BullDogC,

I really like your handle. When I first converted to Catholicism 13 years ago, my friends would always call me a bulldog or a bull in a china shop. Maybe, maybe not, I have toned down a bit in my apologetic style. I still like to think of myself as a bulldog Catholic. But make no mistake. I am a bulldog Catholic for the ENTIRE Catholic Church, not just my own Latin Church. Yes, I am a Latin Catholic like you.

Coming from a Protestant background, it is very natural for me to make analogies to Scripture. Perhaps the following will help. In Scripture, St. Paul writes to the Church of Corinth, the Church of Rome, the Church of Ephesus, the Church of Philippi, etc. BulldogC, do you understand that despite these different names, St. Paul was really referring to only ONE Church? In the same vein, there is the Ruthenian Church, the Melkite Church, the Latin (or Roman) Church (to which you and I belong), the Ukranian Church, the Maronite Church, etc. Each of these Churches have liturgies, traditions, spiritualities, and theological expressions different from each other. BUT WE ARE ALL IN TRUTH ONE CHURCH WHICH IS KNOWN BY THE GENERAL NAME OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

All of these several Churches under the umbrella name of Catholic Church are different from another group of Churches who are under the umbrella name of Orthodox Church. The main differences between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are:

1. acceptance of the infallibility of the Pope and his necessary ministry of unity, accepted in the Catholic Church, but not the Orthodox Church;
2. the doctrines of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary has been dogmatized in the Catholic Church, but not in the Orthodox Church.

Many of the Churches under the umbrella name of Catholic Church look and act like the Churches who are under the umbrella name of Orthodox Church, but because of the two differences above, they are distinguished as parts of the Catholic Church.

That is the skinny of it. If you come upon an Eastern Christian, and are wondering if they are Catholic or Orthodox, simply ask them how they feel about the two issues above. Be careful, however, to use the correct wording for your question. For example, don’t ask, “Who is the head of your Church?” If you ask that of a Maronite Catholic, for instance, he/she will give you the name of his/her local bishop or his/her Patriarch, who you may not recognize. However, if you ask, “Who is the head of the Catholic Church?” any Catholic, whether he/she be Ukranian, Ruthenian, Coptic, Russian, Roman, Maronite, etc., will respond, “Pope John Paul II.”

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Greg

 

[BulldogCath]

Greg

Thank you so much, I do understand now, and the churchs of the East and West are no different than the Apostles, as I read a book some time ago called “The Primitive Church” which basically took parts of the Book of Acts and expanded on them, and how St Peter and Paul actually taught somewhat different (As we all know Paul believed in conversions of the Gentiles, where Peter and some of the Apostles felt that only Jews should be Christians, which I think they worked out at the first Council) and that is like the church, we are all Catholic and it is beautiful, like brother and sisters sometimes, we disagree but still always love eachother

GAssisi:

Dear BullDogC,

I really like your handle. When I first converted to Catholicism 13 years ago, my friends would always call me a bulldog or a bull in a china shop. Maybe, maybe not, I have toned down a bit in my apologetic style. I still like to think of myself as a bulldog Catholic. But make no mistake. I am a bulldog Catholic for the ENTIRE Catholic Church, not just my own Latin Church. Yes, I am a Latin Catholic like you.

Coming from a Protestant background, it is very natural for me to make analogies to Scripture. Perhaps the following will help. In Scripture, St. Paul writes to the Church of Corinth, the Church of Rome, the Church of Ephesus, the Church of Philippi, etc. BulldogC, do you understand that despite these different names, St. Paul was really referring to only ONE Church? In the same vein, there is the Ruthenian Church, the Melkite Church, the Latin (or Roman) Church (to which you and I belong), the Ukranian Church, the Maronite Church, etc. Each of these Churches have liturgies, traditions, spiritualities, and theological expressions different from each other. BUT WE ARE ALL IN TRUTH ONE CHURCH WHICH IS KNOWN BY THE GENERAL NAME OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

All of these several Churches under the umbrella name of Catholic Church are different from another group of Churches who are under the umbrella name of Orthodox Church. The main differences between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are:

1. acceptance of the infallibility of the Pope and his necessary ministry of unity, accepted in the Catholic Church, but not the Orthodox Church;
2. the doctrines of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary has been dogmatized in the Catholic Church, but not in the Orthodox Church.

Many of the Churches under the umbrella name of Catholic Church look and act like the Churches who are under the umbrella name of Orthodox Church, but because of the two differences above, they are distinguished as parts of the Catholic Church.

That is the skinny of it. If you come upon an Eastern Christian, and are wondering if they are Catholic or Orthodox, simply ask them how they feel about the two issues above. Be careful, however, to use the correct wording for your question. For example, don’t ask, “Who is the head of your Church?” If you ask that of a Maronite Catholic, for instance, he/she will give you the name of his/her local bishop or his/her Patriarch, who you may not recognize. However, if you ask, “Who is the head of the Catholic Church?” any Catholic, whether he/she be Ukranian, Ruthenian, Coptic, Russian, Roman, Maronite, etc., will respond, “Pope John Paul II.”

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Greg

 

[BulldogCath]

Thank you ByzCath, it makes sense now

ByzCath:

Bulldog,
I see you are still haveing problems with this.

There are 23 separate Churches that make up the Catholic Church. All of them are Catholic, all of them are in communion.

But you are correct, there is only one Catholic Church. That is the Church all of the 23 make up together. The Roman (or Latin) Catholic Church, which you belong to, is just one of those 23 Churches.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Deacon Ed:

Greg,

One would hope that the bigotry and intolerance that Abp. Ireland showed to Fr. Toth will not be repeated!

Deacon Ed

Absolutely not. As we are learning, the Traditional Anglican Communion with 500,000 members under Archbishop Hepworth will come into Rome with married bishops and priests, with the right to deny papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception and the Asumption.

We have not been told as yet if they will retain the right to allow divorce and remarriage and the use of contraceptive devices.

GAssisi has assured the worried Catholics in the thread where this is being discussed that this denial of infallibly defined dogma can be allowed when they are received into the Catholic Church because of the invincible ignorance of these Anglicans.

I find it hard to believe that there will be 1/2 million Catholics who deny papal infallibility and who won’t be having any feast of the Assumption on 15th August. If Rome has truly approved this, it will set off major alarm bells in the Orthodox world

.__________________
God is the one loveable who is always rejoicing without end in infinite happiness. ~St.Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa, died 395