"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[HankZ]

I notice a marked difference between Paul of Tarsus and his followers (Greco Romans) and those of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem (the Jewish Christians). The Jerusalem based Church very much retained the notion of “salvation by faith and works”, while Paul, who never met Jesus in person, SEEMED TO propogate the theological notion that you can be saved without works. Or as I like to call it, lazy Christianity.

I notice that the Protestant Reformation based most of their arguments on Paul’s writings. I never understood why they were retained- he is the source of Christian division.

Apparently your bible doesn’t contain the book of Acts. Saul, had been on the road to Damascus where he “met” Jesus. They had a little chat too.
It’s also funny how, inspired by Paul, so many lazy Christians have given so much of their life to share the Gospel that was given to him from Christ.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

But, this is getting off topic. If you want to start YET ANOTHER thread about Faith and Works (i.e. Protestant viewpoint has already been contradicted and refuted), go ahead.

I won’t answer any more posts on the topic here, as it is not pertinent. The Roman Catholic Church is right on this matter, though. :tiphat:

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Apparently your bible doesn’t contain the book of Acts. Saul, had been on the road to Damascus where he “met” Jesus. They had a little chat too.
It’s also funny how, inspired Paul, so many lazy Christians have given so much of their life to share the Gospel that was given to him from Christ.

That was how he interpreted it. He never physically met Jesus- he didn’t spend years with Jesus- in fact, Jesus did not give him a full discourse of his life and ministry. Paul had to gauge that from other Christians.

 

[Martin777]

You gave no response to these so do you disregard as meaningless Scripture as those that follow?
For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement. [Hebrews 10:26-27; RSV]

Please note that the “we” in this verse also included St. Paul - a faith-filled, baptized Christian! After Baptism if we sin deliberately and remain unrepentant, then we can lose the gift of salvation. In Baptism we receive Sanctifying Grace in our souls by no merit of our own, but afterwards we must cooperate with this grace or we will lose it (2 Cor 6:1). This cooperation with God’s redeeming grace is the Catholic understanding of merit (CCC 162; 2025).
Fortunately God has given us the Sacrament of Confession (Penance or Reconciliation), so we can receive His continuing forgiveness for our sins committed after Baptism. Since we continue to sin after receiving Baptism (1 John 1:8-9), we must continually repent, confess our sins and turn our heart (will) back to Christ. Repentance is not a single event in our life, but must be an ongoing, everyday process for us. Yesterday we may have sincerely repented and been forgiven, but tomorrow through our weakness, we may stumble back into sin (2 Peter 2:20-22). We can be assured that Jesus will forgive us as often as we forgive others (Luke 6:36-37; Matt 6:14-15). Through this Sacrament, we receive Sanctifying Grace and Actual Graces which can help us resist future sins.
Jesus understands our weakness even after Baptism. This is the reason that He gave His Apostles the authority to forgive sins:

…He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:22-23]
Through the centuries this authority has been handed on to the bishops and priests as the Sacrament of Confession. Christians today need forgiveness for their sins as much as those in the first century A.D. In addition the authority to either forgive or retain implies oral confession (disclosure) of our sins since the priest needs to know the nature of the sins (Acts 19:18; Leviticus 5:5-6).
Even though our personal salvation is not assured, we still must hope in it. In the Bible, St. Paul uses the phrases: “the hope of salvation” [1 Thess 5:8] or “hope of eternal life” [Titus 1:2; 3:7]. If we were assured of heaven, then there would be no need for hope. Hope is not the same as assurance (Romans 8:24). According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and incurring punishment. [CCC 2090]
The two sins against hope are despair and presumption (CCC 2091). The sin of despair is losing hope in our salvation by failing to trust God. The sin of presumption is losing hope by either relying on ourselves for our salvation instead of God or taking God’s mercy for granted without fear. Denying our sinfulness or believing “once saved, always saved” can lead us into the sin of presumption. However, we must not go the other extreme and fall into the sin of despair. Hope is a delicate balance between confidence in God’s promise and fear of the Lord (Proverbs 1:7).
God wants all of us to be saved from hell and come to know the truth (1 Tim 2:4). Through Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church, we can come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 3:15; Matt 16:18). Through the Sacraments we receive God’s saving grace as a free gift. But afterwards we must cooperate with that grace, since we have the free will (choice) to reject God at anytime through serious disobedience, i.e. mortal sin. After receiving God’s redeeming grace in Baptism, we must continue to “work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling” [Philip 2:12]. Through Confession, we can ask God for His continuing merciful forgiveness and more graces to help us resist sins in the future. As sinners we are not assured of our salvation. But Christians, who faithfully use the Sacraments -Channels of God’s saving grace - without giving up, can certainly hope for salvation.
users.binary.net/polycarp/hope.html

Hankz is right on target. A person who has been sealed, born again, justified (all past tense, done, with lasting results) can still sin this side of heaven. We don’t want to, and it is now against our nature as new creatures in Christ, and oir Father will discipline ,ot punish) us. But Rom 8:1 says there remains how much condemnation for us? NONE. That is why Paul could say “all things are lawful for us”! Grace is so amazing, it seems dangerous. But the law, according to Paul, only stirs up sin! It never succeds in preventing it. If you are a true believer you serve out of “newness of the spirit” rather than the oldness of the law. Hallelujah! (Lunch break over. Seeya!)

 

[twb1621]

I notice a marked difference between Paul of Tarsus and his followers (Greco Romans) and those of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem (the Jewish Christians). The Jerusalem based Church very much retained the notion of “salvation by faith and works”, while Paul, who never met Jesus in person, SEEMED TO propogate the theological notion that you can be saved without works. Or as I like to call it, lazy Christianity.

I notice that the Protestant Reformation based most of their arguments on Paul’s writings. I never understood why they were retained- he is the source of Christian division.

According to the following even Paul accepted works;

Please note that the “we” in this verse also included St. Paul - a faith-filled, baptized Christian! After Baptism if we sin deliberately and remain unrepentant, then we can lose the gift of salvation. In Baptism we receive Sanctifying Grace in our souls by no merit of our own, but afterwards we must cooperate with this grace or we will lose it (2 Cor 6:1). This cooperation with God’s redeeming grace is the Catholic understanding of merit (CCC 162; 2025).

 

[sambos671]

You make a valid point and I will have to concider it, that Jesus told them(the Jews) to follow the men in the seats of Moses. This is a far cry from the RCC being the church started by God in Isreal, unless you believe in the falsely taught replacement theory.

Did you have anything else to say or was this just all about being nasty?

I use the same verse and say something similar and am ignored and you take someone else’s word. Well, I guess however the information get to you is a good thing.

 

[twb1621]

Hankz is right on target. A person who has been sealed, born again, justified (all past tense, done, with lasting results) can still sin this side of heaven. We don’t want to, and it is now against our nature as new creatures in Christ, and oir Father will discipline ,ot punish) us. But Rom 8:1 says there remains how much condemnation for us? NONE. That is why Paul could say “all things are lawful for us”! Grace is so amazing, it seems dangerous. But the law, according to Paul, only stirs up sin! It never succeds in preventing it. If you are a true believer you serve out of “newness of the spirit” rather than the oldness of the law. Hallelujah! (Lunch break over. Seeya!)

Hi Martin77, I will then refer you to Post #967
Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Hankz is right on target. A person who has been sealed, born again, justified (all past tense, done, with lasting results) can still sin this side of heaven. We don’t want to, and it is now against our nature as new creatures in Christ, and oir Father will discipline ,ot punish) us. But Rom 8:1 says there remains how much condemnation for us? NONE. That is why Paul could say “all things are lawful for us”! Grace is so amazing, it seems dangerous. But the law, according to Paul, only stirs up sin! It never succeds in preventing it. If you are a true believer you serve out of “newness of the spirit” rather than the oldness of the law. Hallelujah! (Lunch break over. Seeya!)

No you can’t.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

** 21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’**

 

[HankZ]

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You must first figure out if you are capable of doing good works. Do everything to bring God glory, that is good works. Doing things to make you look good, filthy rags.

 

[twb1621]

You must first figure out if you are capable of doing good works. Do everything to bring God glory, that is good works. Doing things to make you look good, filthy rags.

I don’t understand the meaning of your response.
The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point of what I was asking you

 

[HankZ]

The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.

Good works are a result of salvation, not a means to getting it.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

You must first figure out if you are capable of doing good works. Do everything to bring God glory, that is good works. Doing things to make you look good, filthy rags.

Ha ha- if you are capable? I have my own “step by step” process for that-

A: Get out of bed/Remove rear end from couch.

B. Clean up/Eat breakfast or other meal

C. If you are employed, always go to to work

D: Donate money/time

E. Use your mind?

 

[Roamin_Xian]

Good works are a result of salvation, not a means to getting it.

It’s nice to know that you could mentally negate huge tracts of Scripture without flinching.

 

[twb1621]

Good works are a result of salvation, not a means to getting it.

Does not the verse (by Mathew) describe those things at the end that Jesus will be basing His judgement on and is this not referring to the judgement when He returns which is after His saving sacrafice? …

 

[HankZ]

Ha ha- if you are capable? I have my own “step by step” process for that-

A: Get out of bed/Remove rear end from couch.

B. Clean up/Eat breakfast or other meal

C. If you are employed, always go to to work

D: Donate money/time

E. Use your mind?

These by human standards are good things, but filthy rags to the one who matters. God judges the heart, not the outward appearance.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

These by human standards are good things, but filthy rags to the one who matters. God judges the heart, not the outward appearance.

God judges both, my friend. God doesn’t tolerate idleness, which is what Protestant “Sola Scriptura” doctrine promulgates.

 

[HankZ]

Does not the verse (by Mathew) describe those things at the end that Jesus will be basing His judgement on and is this not referring to the judgement when He returns which is after His saving sacrafice? …

Did you catch the part where He said, “Me?”
You can do everything good, but if you don’t do it for God, it is worthless.

 

[Hisalone]

**THE CHRISTMAS BELL **
I KNOW WHO I AM
I am God’s child (John 1:12)
I am Christ’s friend (John 15:15 )
I am united with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17)
I am bought with a price (1 Cor 6:19-20)
I am a saint (set apart for God). (Eph. 1:1)
I am a personal witness of Christ. (Acts 1:8)
I am the salt & light of the earth (Matt 5:13-14)
I am a member of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27)
I am free forever from condemnation ( Rom. 8: 1-2)
I am a citizen of Heaven. I am significant (Phil 3:20)
I am free from any charge against me (Rom. 8:31 -34)
I am a minister of reconciliation for God (2 Cor 5:17-21)
I have access to God through the Holy Spirit (Eph… 2:18)
I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph. 2:6)
I cannot be separated from the love of God (Rom 8:35-39)
I am established, anointed, sealed by God (2 Cor 1:21-22 )
I am assured all things work together for good (Rom… 8:28 )
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit (John 15:16 )
I may approach God with freedom and confidence (Eph. 3: 12 )
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Phil. 4:13)
I am the branch of the true vine, a channel of His life (John 15: 1-5)
I am God’s temple (1 Cor. 3: 16). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2: 10)
I am hidden with Christ in God ( Col. 3:3). I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am God’s co-worker (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1). I am God’s workmanship (Eph. 2:10)
I am confident that the good works God has begun in me will be perfected. (Phil. 1: 5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven ( Col 1:14). I have been adopted as God’s child (Eph 1:5)
I belong to God
And so do
you

Cool

 

[sambos671]

Good works are a result of salvation, not a means to getting it.

Catholics believe this too. But the also view what it means: If there are no works there is no salvation. Because the Fig tree isn’t giving off fruit it gets cut down and burned.

 

[SIA]

Why don’t you ALSO take up Ag_not’s challenge SIA. Here is an opportunity for you to save her soul!

You cannot turn your back on that!

Challenge? Can you refresh me on that please? I don’t really have the time to go back and sift through posts. I’m much more interested in a real meat and potatoes truth shot like the post I said AMEN to.