The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[HankZ]

Hank NOT one catholic believes one can be saved by works alone…NOT ONE CATHOLIC BELEIVES ONE CAN BE SAVED BY WORKS ALONE…not one catholic believes one can be saved by works alone…has that sunk in yet?
you (Hank) stated that through Jesus all sins are forgiven i said nope read scripture the gospel according to St.Matthew 12:31"…but blasmphemy against the Spirit will NOT be forgiven"
this you called my opinion.
there is a vast difference in my opinion and your opinion Hank mine is formed with the church and yours is formed with your own heart and we know what Jesus said comes out of the hearts of men.
and it is painfully clear that you can not explain as why St.Paul wrote that love is greater than faith…
St.Luke 7:47"…her sins,many as they are, shall be forgiven her,BECAUSE she has loved much…"

You have again tried to change the question. Why did Paul, say, “not by works” if you need to have good works to be saved?

 

[HankZ]

Hank NOT one catholic believes one can be saved by works alone…NOT ONE CATHOLIC BELEIVES ONE CAN BE SAVED BY WORKS ALONE…not one catholic believes one can be saved by works alone…has that sunk in yet?
you (Hank) stated that through Jesus all sins are forgiven i said nope read scripture the gospel according to St.Matthew 12:31"…but blasmphemy against the Spirit will NOT be forgiven"
this you called my opinion.
there is a vast difference in my opinion and your opinion Hank mine is formed with the church and yours is formed with your own heart and we know what Jesus said comes out of the hearts of men.
and it is painfully clear that you can not explain as why St.Paul wrote that love is greater than faith…
St.Luke 7:47"…her sins,many as they are, shall be forgiven her,BECAUSE she has loved much…"

Not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… Does that help you understand that not one catholic can be saved by any of his works? Salvation cannot be earned by man, it can only be accepted by man.

 

[CWBetts]

This does not explain the free gift of salvation, it only adds works. Paul said, “Not by works.”

Jesus said we MUST be born of water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (Confirmation)

Jesus said those who not eat his flesh and drink his blood (Communion) have no life in them.

Jesus said “If you love me, keep my commandments”

Jesus said that we must take up our cross daily and follow Him (which insinuates more than sitting on your couch and thet going to church on sunday)

 

[fbl9]

Not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… Does that help you understand that not one catholic can be saved by any of his works? Salvation cannot be earned by man, it can only be accepted by man.

too funny i know that already… didn’t you read what was put to you??
not one protestant can be saved without any works…

 

[fbl9]

You have again tried to change the question. Why did Paul, say, “not by works” if you need to have good works to be saved?

not by works done on your own…this doesn’t have anything to do with works done in the spirit(true charity)

 

[fbl9]

You have again tried to change the question. Why did Paul, say, “not by works” if you need to have good works to be saved?

and we have the same St.Paul inisting that those who believe excel in doing good works…

 

[HankZ]

Jesus said we MUST be born of water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (Confirmation)

Jesus said those who not eat his flesh and drink his blood (Communion) have no life in them.

Jesus said “If you love me, keep my commandments”

Jesus said that we must take up our cross daily and follow Him (which insinuates more than sitting on your couch and thet going to church on sunday)

I really understand what you are saying. Please, think about why Paul would say that salvation is “NOT BY WORKS.”
Scripture does not conflict. This is one of those areas where it may seem to conflict, but if realize that salvation is a gift from God and there is nothing you can do to earn it, it makes sense. We are not better then someone else, so God saves us, on the contrary, we are as worthless as everyone else and deserving of Hell, and in His mercy, God offers salvation to us through His son for His own purpose and glory. Nothing we do will ever be good enough, unless He removes the barrier that separates us from Him.

 

[Alindawyl]

It does not matter who created sin. The issue is that since you are a created thing, you cannot separate you from God if He has saved you.

Thank you for the advice.

God hasn’t “saved” us until we die. While we still live and breathe, we are capable of doing evil and therefore separating ourselves from God.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 - Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

No matter how much he preached, Paul still feared that he himself would not achieve salvation. Paul, a man who experienced a vision directly from God. His faith can’t be in question. Yet he still worried that his salvation was not guaranteed.

 

[fbl9]

I really understand what you are saying. Please, think about why Paul would say that salvation is “NOT BY WORKS.”
Scripture does not conflict. This is one of those areas where it may seem to conflict, but if realize that salvation is a gift from God and there is nothing you can do to earn it, it makes sense. We are not better then someone else, so God saves us, on the contrary, we are as worthless as everyone else and deserving of Hell, and in His mercy, God offers salvation to us through His son for His own purpose and glory. Nothing we do will ever be good enough, unless He removes the barrier that separates us from Him.

nothing here that catholics don’t agree with.
Hank hasn’t it been made clear to you yet that catholics do not beleive that works without God can gain salvation.
it is a faith that is WITHOUT works that is useless for salvation.

 

[HankZ]

God hasn’t “saved” us until we die. While we still live and breathe, we are capable of doing evil and therefore separating ourselves from God.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 - Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

No matter how much he preached, Paul still feared that he himself would not achieve salvation. Paul, a man who experienced a vision directly from God. His faith can’t be in question. Yet he still worried that his salvation was not guaranteed.

You have BEEN SAVED by grace through faith.
He made other statements of his salvation too.

 

[tm30]

His word enlightens us to the character of God, It does not bind Him.
The bible is the Living Word of God and will last forever. It is far from finite.

The Living Word of God was first conveyed through oral tradition. By raising Scripture above Tradition, you nullify the very actions of the Apostles as depicted in the New Testament. If the Holy Spirit can only teach through Scripture, then who guided the Gospel-free Apostolic Church???

 

[tm30]

Well Paul says “Work OUT you salvation…” But he doesn’t say work FOR it! We have to harmonize all of scripture. We work out what God put IN us the moment we were saved (IF in fact we WERE saved). RCC’s seem to have very little concept of all that happened at the moment of salvation. Paul makes such a huge deal about it. Makes me wonder why he does and they don’t??? I’m reminded of the difference between someone who has seen the Grand Canyon and someone who has only seen pictures of it. Night and day difference. Or someone who has read about having achild vs someone who has one! Or someone who has a good father vs someone who was orphaned and has only read about fathers. Why does Paul talk so much about the phenomenon of the salvation event and tell believers he is praying they will comprehend the magnitude of it, yet…???

You say, “We work out what God put IN” - but that, again, fails your own criterion, in that it is not Scripturally evident, but merely your own conjecture. Dare I say it, your faith seems to be based on the Tradition of “Martin777” and not Scripture.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to respond to the fact that Jesus gave us two ‘new’ commandments, yet you reject the entire concept of “law”. How do you reconcile your position that Roman Catholics are enslaved to “law”, yet Christ Himself commands us to follow laws that He himself declared?

 

[fbl9]

You say, “We work out what God put IN” - but that, again, fails your own criterion, in that it is not Scripturally evident, but merely your own conjecture. Dare I say it, your faith seems to be based on the Tradition of “Martin777” and not Scripture.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to respond to the fact that Jesus gave us two ‘new’ commandments, yet you reject the entire concept of “law”. How do you reconcile your position that Roman Catholics are enslaved to “law”, yet Christ Himself commands us to follow laws that He himself declared?

did not Jesus say one can not serve two MASTERS?
did not St.Paul say we are either SLAVES unto sin or justice?
more later

 

[CWBetts]

I really understand what you are saying. Please, think about why Paul would say that salvation is “NOT BY WORKS.”
Scripture does not conflict. This is one of those areas where it may seem to conflict, but if realize that salvation is a gift from God and there is nothing you can do to earn it, it makes sense. We are not better then someone else, so God saves us, on the contrary, we are as worthless as everyone else and deserving of Hell, and in His mercy, God offers salvation to us through His son for His own purpose and glory. Nothing we do will ever be good enough, unless He removes the barrier that separates us from Him.

I think we agree more than you think we do. We can do nothing to “earn” our salvation. God would have been justified to have never sent his son, and let us all burn in the lake of fire. But God loves us, and so he did send CHrist to die for us. But it is not an easy-believism kind of salvation. God expects his people to live righteously, and clearly defines that if we truly love Him, we will keep his commandments. This is what St. Paul refers to as “running the race” i do not have my Bible right beside me, so forgive me for not having the references memorized. God desires us to continue working towards glory throughout our lives. To facilitate this he gave us the gifts of the sacraments. These do not “earn points” for salvation so much, and there are examples of those who never recieved any sacrament (the thief on the cross). But to be baptized, confirmed, and recieve communion is the norm. Are these actually earning salvation? No, but they are signs of repentance. Remember when John the Baptist told the Pharisees (very righteous people indeed when it came to following the Law) “show me works worthy of repentance” Thats what the sacraments are, signs of our repentance, and they help bring us closer to God. I cannot fully explain why, mabe someone more eloquent than I can. I just now that when I hear my Priest say that my sins are forgiven, a terrible burden is lifted from me. When I recieve communion. tears well in my eyes. When I was confirmed, I felt a very real change within me. I truly became a new creature. I was felt with a peace because I knew that I no longer had to depend on my weak flesh to overcome sin, but I had the Holy Spirit to lead me. Did these actions make me worthy of God’s gift? Not in the slightest. What they did do was show the grace he extended to me. Do you understand now?

 

[fbl9]

did not Jesus say one can not serve two MASTERS?
did not St.Paul say we are either SLAVES unto sin or justice?
more later

St.Luke 17:10"" i do not think so.Even so YOU also,when you have DONE everything COMMANDED you,say,’ We are unprofitable SERVANTS;we have DONE what it was our duty to do"

 

[twb1621]

I agree that scripture cannot be stretched like play-doh. Could you explain what Paul means by we are saved by Grace through faith and not by works?

I am going to answer this under the premise you really want to know but I am half rolling my eyes here…

I posted this before but I will repost it here and when I say “you” I mean anyone, not just you as in you Hank. . Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? And is that Christian? We are to Live as He taught us, not just claim the salvation as though it were the winnings from a lottery. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works.

 

[twb1621]

I am going to answer this under the premise you really want to know but I am half rolling my eyes here…

I posted this before but I will repost it here and when I say “you” I mean anyone, not just you as in you Hank. . Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? And is that Christian? We are to Live as He taught us, not just claim the salvation as though it were the winnings from a lottery. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be “Born Again” follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works. Oh and by the way, Grace builds in us as love does and LOVE gives us the strength to do some things we wouldn’t do otherwise.

 

[twb1621]

Hank, keep one more thing in mind. The apostles did not only teach the word of God, they lived it and died on behalf of His Word. They could have done many things but this was the life Jesus instructed of them and us. Think about that. They also were saved and full of the Grace of God.

 

[Martin777]

You say, “We work out what God put IN” - but that, again, fails your own criterion, in that it is not Scripturally evident, but merely your own conjecture. Dare I say it, your faith seems to be based on the Tradition of “Martin777” and not Scripture.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to respond to the fact that Jesus gave us two ‘new’ commandments, yet you reject the entire concept of “law”. How do you reconcile your position that Roman Catholics are enslaved to “law”, yet Christ Himself commands us to follow laws that He himself declared?

All right, I’ll do the work and show you the Scritpures. To be honest I thought some of you knew the Word better. Fact is, once I show you clearly, it probably won’t matter. Funny how that is. The post I made there shows very clearly what the Scripture says, but I think you have your own agenda and it is a matter of pride for you. I honestly feel like I am wasting them on you.Here are the the verses on working OUT your salvation:
Two passages that describe the process…
II Peter 1
"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. "

Ever seen that passage before?

Here’s another one, not as descriptive, that describes the process a little:
Romans 5
"Therefore, since we **have been **justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

By the way, here is another point of consistency on the fact that we can’t lose our salvation (but friend, you have to have it first)–See that phrase, ‘we also rejoice in our sufferings’?? I don’t know about you, but sufferings are the kinds of situations where I tend to sin more, depending on the kind of suffering. If you could lose your salvation due to a bad fall during a time of suffering, I don’t think I would be saying ‘we also rejoice in our suffergs’!

 

[Martin777]

You say, “We work out what God put IN” - but that, again, fails your own criterion, in that it is not Scripturally evident, but merely your own conjecture. Dare I say it, your faith seems to be based on the Tradition of “Martin777” and not Scripture.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to respond to the fact that Jesus gave us two ‘new’ commandments, yet you reject the entire concept of “law”. How do you reconcile your position that Roman Catholics are enslaved to “law”, yet Christ Himself commands us to follow laws that He himself declared?

I never said there are no commands from God for the Christian! What I said is that God has already punished, 2000 years ago, every failure I will ever experience in keeping those commands as I live the Christian life. I ahve also pointed out that in the OT, God promised that one day He would write his commands on our hearts, instead of them being outside us, on stone tablets! Here, I’ll quote the passage so you won’t think I’m making it up…(Ezekial 36)
" I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."