The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[fbl9]

Ezekial 36)
" I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

and if you refuse to listen(be moved) to that spirit what then?oh you weren’t saved in the first place…doesn’t work out though Martin cause just what was that spirit doing in you in the first place?

 

[fbl9]

I never said there are no commands from God for the Christian! "

just what are you and brother Hank implying in saying catholics are bound in"legalism",take a close look and you will find no "legalism"in contradiction to those “laws”…

 

[fbl9]

By the way, here is another point of consistency on the fact that we can’t lose our salvation (but friend, you have to have it first)–See that phrase, ‘we also rejoice in our sufferings’?? I don’t know about you, but sufferings are the kinds of situations where I tend to sin more, depending on the kind of suffering. If you could lose your salvation due to a bad fall during a time of suffering, I don’t think I would be saying ‘we also rejoice in our suffergs’!

here’s another consistency from the book of the prophet Ezechiel18:24"But if the JUST man turn turn away from his JUSTICE and do iniquity according to all the abominations the wicked man uses to work,shall he live?All his justices which he have done,SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED.In the prevarication,by which he hath prevaricated and in his sin which he hath commitedt,in them HE SHALL DIE’’

 

[NotWorthy]

It does not matter who created sin. The issue is that since you are a created thing, you cannot separate you from God if He has saved you.

Thank you for the advice.

Wrong, Jesus talks of this in John 15, telling the Apostles to remain in him. Those that don’t will be cut off the vine and burned.

 

[NotWorthy]

you honestly believe that is why St. Paul said love is greater than faith?

St. Paul went much further than that! He said that without Love, Faith is nothing!

He is a “clanging gong”, which is quite appropos for this thread!

Don’t worry guys!!! I’m catching up!

 

[NotWorthy]

This does not explain the free gift of salvation, it only adds works. Paul said, “Not by works.”

OK, you think the fact that a simple thing like Baptism bringing on our salvation is not under the “Free Gift” category?!?

 

[NotWorthy]

Not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… not one catholic can be saved by any of his works… Does that help you understand that not one catholic can be saved by any of his works? Salvation cannot be earned by man, it can only be accepted by man.

And all the good Catholics sing out, “Amen”!!!

Why did you feel the need to present this as an argument?

 

[NotWorthy]

God hasn’t “saved” us until we die. While we still live and breathe, we are capable of doing evil and therefore separating ourselves from God.

1 Corinthians 9:26-27 - Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

No matter how much he preached, Paul still feared that he himself would not achieve salvation. Paul, a man who experienced a vision directly from God. His faith can’t be in question. Yet he still worried that his salvation was not guaranteed.

[SIGN]AMEN!!![/SIGN]

 

[NotWorthy]

You have BEEN SAVED by grace through faith.
He made other statements of his salvation too.

He also speaks of “being saved” (present tense) and “will be saved” (future tense). Salvation is a process.

 

[NotWorthy]

I never said there are no commands from God for the Christian! What I said is that God has already punished, 2000 years ago, every failure I will ever experience in keeping those commands as I live the Christian life. I ahve also pointed out that in the OT, God promised that one day He would write his commands on our hearts, instead of them being outside us, on stone tablets! Here, I’ll quote the passage so you won’t think I’m making it up…(Ezekial 36)
" I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

Yes, we’ve been over Ezekiel’s prediction of the Sacrament of Baptism.

But I’ve got to ask you… why did Jesus give the Apostles the awesome responsibility of Forgiving and Remitting sins in the name of Christ if all our sins are already forgiven?

And why did the early Church follow the Sacrament of Confession (Penance) if none of it mattered?

 

[twb1621]

All right, I’ll do the work and show you the Scritpures. To be honest I thought some of you knew the Word better. Fact is, once I show you clearly, it probably won’t matter. Funny how that is. The post I made there shows very clearly what the Scripture says, but I think you have your own agenda and it is a matter of pride for you. I honestly feel like I am wasting them on you.Here are the the verses on working OUT your salvation:
Two passages that describe the process…
II Peter 1
"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. "

Ever seen that passage before?

Here’s another one, not as descriptive, that describes the process a little:
Romans 5
"Therefore, since we **have been **justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

By the way, here is another point of consistency on the fact that we can’t lose our salvation (but friend, you have to have it first)–See that phrase, ‘we also rejoice in our sufferings’?? I don’t know about you, but sufferings are the kinds of situations where I tend to sin more, depending on the kind of suffering. If you could lose your salvation due to a bad fall during a time of suffering, I don’t think I would be saying ‘we also rejoice in our suffergs’!

Martin, what are you doing… you raised these verses before and I refuted your presentation with a very informative and credible response that you never answered to at all and your going right back to this after all the scripture verses. Its not a denial that faith is salvation, it is about taking it to the level of choosing to live as Jesus taught us we are to live, in Charity and humility, (or striving to), and that is a matter of will. Do you really want to stand up and say you live to your fullest potential when you don’t even know your limitations? Both are required and scripture clearly points that out numerous times. What is it you can’t accept. At one point you claim you realize it but you have to hold find some way to rebut something so you don’t have to admit to the truth. Is that why you avoid certain posts so you don’t have to give up the last argument to your belief system? Its all there i n the scripture together. Faith PLUS works… what more do you need to figure it out. You just can’t accept Catholics may be right after all this time…

 

[fbl9]

here’s another consistency from the book of the prophet Ezechiel18:24"But if the JUST man turn turn away from his JUSTICE and do iniquity according to all the abominations the wicked man uses to work,shall he live?All his justices which he have done,SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED.In the prevarication,by which he hath prevaricated and in his sin which he hath commitedt,in them HE SHALL DIE’’

and some more of that famed consistency from St.Paul’s letter to the CHURCH in Roman(Romans 1:7"to all God’s beloved who are in Rome,called to BE saints:…“11:13-22(just last of 20 and 21 is quoted here)”…Be not high minded but FEAR.21For if God has not spared the natural branches,perhaps He may NOT spare thee either"…
is it just me or does faith without works and once saved always saved seem to be trying to skate on water

 

[NotWorthy]

is it just me or does faith without works and once saved always saved seem to be trying to skate on water

I recall the words of Gamaliel, "if it be of human origin, it will fall…"(paraphrasing). And brother, these two heresies are definitely of human origin!!!

Warning, yet another “no Catholic has ever been saved by his works” message should be coming soon!!!

 

[HankZ]

Martin, what are you doing… you raised these verses before and I refuted your presentation with a very informative and credible response that you never answered to at all and your going right back to this after all the scripture verses. Its not a denial that faith is salvation, it is about taking it to the level of choosing to live as Jesus taught us we are to live, in Charity and humility, (or striving to), and that is a matter of will. Do you really want to stand up and say you live to your fullest potential when you don’t even know your limitations? Both are required and scripture clearly points that out numerous times. What is it you can’t accept. At one point you claim you realize it but you have to hold find some way to rebut something so you don’t have to admit to the truth. Is that why you avoid certain posts so you don’t have to give up the last argument to your belief system? Its all there i n the scripture together. Faith PLUS works… what more do you need to figure it out. You just can’t accept Catholics may be right after all this time…

The problem with accepting this idea that Jesus is not enough, is that if Jesus is not enough, who is greater then He to help you if Jesus can’t? It’s about not accepting a false teaching that you NEED to do good deeds for your salvation. I’m going back to what I said in a post in the first thread on this topic, Good deeds are wonderful and please God. The question is who can do good deeds? Only those who are saved. I have been told that you agree with that, yet it is repeated that faith and works are combined in order to attain and/or keep salvation. That is preaching a false Christ. Christ alone is able to save, Paul stresses that it is “not by works.” It’s kind of an all or none teaching that Jesus preached when He said, “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, no man gets to the Father but through me.” Not even a little bit, can good deeds do anything for salvation.

If you were discussing that if you show no good deeds, then you haven’t been saved, we would have a completely different argument and I would agree in part. I believe that works are something you will do after you have been saved. I actually think “works” are very important in the life of a Christian. In this discussion I am saying that good works are useless for salvation, keeping or earning. It is hard to accept that you can’t help. I believe this is partly why the road to salvation is narrow. People feel they must “Do” something to be saved.

 

[HankZ]

And all the good Catholics sing out, “Amen”!!!

Why did you feel the need to present this as an argument?

I was trying to show fbl9 how silly it looks to rant like that.
Sorry fbl9, I will not do that again.

 

[HankZ]

I recall the words of Gamaliel, "if it be of human origin, it will fall…"(paraphrasing). And brother, these two heresies are definitely of human origin!!!

Warning, yet another “no Catholic has ever been saved by his works” message should be coming soon!!!

I would not be so quick to judge. That was what Gamaliel was actually getting across. He was speaking of the apostles and in reality, it was the religious people who were wrong.

 

[fbl9]

The problem with accepting this idea that Jesus is not enough, is that if Jesus is not enough, who is greater then He to help you if Jesus can’t? It’s about not accepting a false teaching that you NEED to do good deeds for your salvation. I’m going back to what I said in a post in the first thread on this topic, Good deeds are wonderful and please God. The question is who can do good deeds? Only those who are saved. I have been told that you agree with that, yet it is repeated that faith and works are combined in order to attain and/or keep salvation. That is preaching a false Christ. Christ alone is able to save, Paul stresses that it is “not by works.” It’s kind of an all or none teaching that Jesus preached when He said, “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, no man gets to the Father but through me.” Not even a little bit, can good deeds do anything for salvation.

If you were discussing that if you show no good deeds, then you haven’t been saved, we would have a completely different argument and I would agree in part. I believe that works are something you will do after you have been saved. I actually think “works” are very important in the life of a Christian. In this discussion I am saying that good works are useless for salvation, keeping or earning. It is hard to accept that you can’t help. I believe this is partly why the road to salvation is narrow. People feel they must “Do” something to be saved.

to sit back and do nothing is against Christ’s command to love your neighbour…Hank you have forgotten that you have to obey Christ in order to be saved…without works faith is DEAD and that which is dead has no life and with no life there is only death.
goodnight and God bless.

 

[HankZ]

to sit back and do nothing is against Christ’s command to love your neighbour…Hank you have forgotten that you have to obey Christ in order to be saved…without works faith is DEAD and that which is dead has no life and with no life there is only death.
goodnight and God bless.

How can you follow Christ if you are His enemy?

 

[NotWorthy]

The problem with accepting this idea that Jesus is not enough, is that if Jesus is not enough, who is greater then He to help you if Jesus can’t?

This is a false conclusion to our argument. No one claims that they need to add to Jesus’ sacrifice, which is what you think we’re saying. What we are saying is that we have to be faithful to Jesus’ commands to us in order to live up to our side of the deal.

It’s about not accepting a false teaching that you NEED to do good deeds for your salvation. I’m going back to what I said in a post in the first thread on this topic, Good deeds are wonderful and please God.

But didn’t one of you guys say that there is nothing we can do to please God. Consistency makes a much better argument. And all we are doing is applying what our Lord and Savior told us, both in His Parables and His other Teachings.

The question is who can do good deeds? Only those who are saved. I have been told that you agree with that, yet it is repeated that faith and works are combined in order to attain and/or keep salvation.

Maintain or keep. Nothing we can do will attain Salvation. But the “Obedience of Faith” will help us maintain our Salvation.

That is preaching a false Christ. Christ alone is able to save, Paul stresses that it is “not by works.” It’s kind of an all or none teaching that Jesus preached when He said, “I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, no man gets to the Father but through me.” Not even a little bit, can good deeds do anything for salvation.

Are you deaf?!? No one is arguing this point that I underlined. We’re just arguing with the false conclusions you’ve invented from our arguments.

If you were discussing that if you show no good deeds, then you haven’t been saved, we would have a completely different argument and I would agree in part. I believe that works are something you will do after you have been saved. I actually think “works” are very important in the life of a Christian. In this discussion I am saying that good works are useless for salvation, keeping or earning. It is hard to accept that you can’t help. I believe this is partly why the road to salvation is narrow. People feel they must “Do” something to be saved.

So if I do something to please God, then it will lead me to hell?!?!? That’s just crazy talk!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

I was trying to show fbl9 how silly it looks to rant like that.
Sorry fbl9, I will not do that again.

And I’m trying to point out that your “ranting” is already believed and professed by Catholics everywhere.

Yes, Not one catholic can be saved by any of his works. Its like me telling you, Hank, how many times do I have to remind you that the sun will rise tomorrow?!?