The Chosen People

[Lev23]

Right. But the question is: what happened after that? One branch of Jews followed the New Covenant and founded Christianity. Another branch rejected the new Covenant and founded Rabbinical Judaism. Neither branch is following the Torah since there is no longer a Jerusalem Temple through which to carry out God’s commandments to Moses.

So which branch of Judaism inherits the “Chosen People” title?

The whole house of Israel is all Israel. Wheter they be secular, mystical(kaballah), rabbinical Judasism, Christian, etc., etc., etc.

The ones that are the current remnant of Israel, are the ones in the Church, saved by grace, not by works. These are the natural branches on the olive tree St.Paul refers to. There are other natural branches, the broken off ones, and they can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief.

Unbelief of the broken branches of Israel means they belief anything and everything except Jesus Christ as their Messiah. But they are still Chosen people. The remnant of Israel in the Church sanctifies that fact. The God of Israel says in Ezekiel 36 that he will bring the whole house of Israel out of the nations in their unbelief. They are being chosen at the moment as the ongoing restoration of Israel to the land in Israel will result ultimately in their turning back to God as a nation. Yes, they are not saved at the moment, and things will only get tougher for them until the Lord Jesus returns. But the Lord is doing this for all nations to know it is Him doing this so all will repent and look to him only.

And about all Israel is not Israel, this is true. But Israel is being restored in unbelief to one day turn in belief to the God of Israel the way he wants them to turn to Him, by His only Son, Jesus Christ.

BTW, the Jews who first founded the Church did follow the Torah because Jesus is the embodiment of the Torah. All Christians thereafter do the same.

Jesus is the embodiment of the Torah

 

[DonLeon]

You claim that I “do not understand the proper meaning of the “Chosen People” of God”" but you simply restated my earlier point.

While the Rabbnial Jews turned their back on God by rejecting the Messiah, Christianity has its own problem, namely that they are not the heirs of Abraham.

But this is not orthodox Catholicism which is currently very confused on this issue. And the root of the problem is the Jewish-Christian schism of 1C-2C AD.

And if Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (much less Catholics and Protestants) can’t heal their schism, what hope is there for Christians and Jews?

The differnce between Christians and Jews is basically theological.
The difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox is basically political.
There IS a solution to both problems. Over time, many Jews have accepted, and will accept, Christ, and many orthodox have accepted, and will accept, Catholicism. The Holy Spirit is at work through dialogues. Just help by praying. :heaven:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GraceDK]

If the Jews are God’s Chosen People(a posit I happen to agree with),why have they suffered and been persecuted for millenia?.Especially during the Holocaust?

The pattern of the Jewish people is a pattern that Jesus went through in his earthly life too… the child-killings in Egypt - Herods murders of children in Bethlehem.
Jesus’ years in Egypt in exile with his family, - the same for the Jews…
40 years in the desert for the people, 40 days in the desert for Jesus.
And then the suffering of Christ.
Have you ever thought about the Holocaust… the “burnt sacrifice” it means…
Satan persecuted Jews all throughout History because Salvation comes from the Jews. No people is more hated in the world than them. The devil tried to avenge himself on God by directing his fury at the apple of God’s eye, the chosen people.
Also Jesus is hated by the world.
Look always at the enemies of the Jews… you will see great forces of darkness there. The greatest triumph for the devil was when bishops persecuted Jews during the inquisition.

Jesus suffered more than anyone has ever suffered.
Among peoples, the Jews have suffered more than anyone. But also they have done better than anyone when it comes to rising again… there are so many inventors that are Jews etc…

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The differnce between Christians and Jews is basically theological. The difference between Roman Catholics and Orthodox is basically political. There IS a solution to both problems. Over time, many Jews have accepted, and will accept, Christ, and many orthodox have accepted, and will accept, Catholicism.

But when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity. If the difference between Christians and Jews is merely theological then the instant a Jew switches teams he’s not a Jew anymore. Insofar as being Jewish is a tribal affiliation, this is not an instant loss of Jewish identity but an eventual consequence since Jewish Christians intermarry with gentile Christians.

So either way, being a Jew means rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. And if the Jews are the Chosen People then God chose them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.

How about them apples!

 

[Soutane]

But when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity. If the difference between Christians and Jews is merely theological then the instant a Jew switches teams he’s not a Jew anymore. Insofar as being Jewish is a tribal affiliation, this is not an instant loss of Jewish identity but an eventual consequence since Jewish Christians intermarry with gentile Christians.

So either way, being a Jew means rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. And if the Jews are the Chosen People then God chose them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.

How about them apples!

Only other Jews say that when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity.Ask any Hebrew Catholic whether or not they are still Jews,then stand back,Bubba.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Only other Jews say that when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity.Ask any Hebrew Catholic whether or not they are still Jews,then stand back,Bubba.

I’m simply following the logic of the poster I quoted. But this thread, in general, has been big on vague claims and accusations and light on reason and logic.

What is a Jew? For what were the Jews chosen? Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? And what is the role of Jews post-Jesus?

You can’t treat this subject seriously without addressing such questions.

Simply asking people’s opinions is no substitue for serious thinking. Maybe Hewbrew Catholics are simply in denial.

 

[DonLeon]

But when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity. If the difference between Christians and Jews is merely theological then** the instant a Jew switches teams he’s not a Jew anymore.** Insofar as being Jewish is a tribal affiliation, this is not an instant loss of Jewish identity but an eventual consequence since Jewish Christians intermarry with gentile Christians.

So either way, being a Jew means rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. And if the Jews are the Chosen People then God chose them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.

How about them apples!

More like prunes…Since Jews are a nation, like Americans, Italians, French, Germans, etc., how can they no longer be Jews?

In the early ages, when the pagan Greeks became Christians, did they lose their identity?
What about the Goths, Visisgoths, Gauls, Picts, Celts, and all the other pagans when they converted? They all still retained their national identity. So, then, why should a Jew lose his?

Also, not all Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. There are many Jews that are Christians
( e.g. Hebrew Catholic Association ) and still retain their Jewish Identity. Remember, God gave us free will to accept or reject. He ** did not** choose the Jews to reject Jesus. :tsktsk:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

To All:

Might I suggest to have a definite answer on this subject of God’s “Chosen People” that you contact the Hebrew Catholic Association?

www.hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

More like prunes…Since Jews are a nation, like Americans, Italians, French, Germans, etc., how can they no longer be Jews?

So you are making an argument for gentic Judaism. That’s fine. If a Jew and an Italian marry in Brooklyn are their children Jewish, Italian, or American?

In the early ages, when the pagan Greeks became Christians, did they lose their identity? What about the Goths, Visisgoths, Gauls, Picts, Celts, and all the other pagans when they converted? They all still retained their national identity. So, then, why should a Jew lose his?

Christianity makes different identify claims than Judaism because it distinguishes religion from ethnicity and nationality. You can be a Christian Japanese American.

Also, not all Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. There are many Jews that are Christians ( e.g. Hebrew Catholic Association ) and still retain their Jewish Identity.

So you claim but please point me to some Hebrew Christians who have been Christian for more than a couple generations. The original Christians were Jews. Can you distinguish their descendents from gentile Christians?

Remember, God gave us free will to accept or reject. He ** did not** choose the Jews to reject Jesus.

See the above train of logic. You have yet to refute it.

Again I ask: What is a Jew? For what were the Jews chosen? Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? And what is the role of Jews post-Jesus?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Might I suggest to have a definite answer on this subject of God’s “Chosen People” that you contact the Hebrew Catholic Association?

Ask them if their membership includes the descendants of the first Jewish Christains.

 

[DonLeon]

So you are making an argument for gentic Judaism. That’s fine. If a Jew and an Italian marry in Brooklyn are their children Jewish, Italian, or American?

Christianity makes different identify claims than Judaism because it distinguishes religion from ethnicity and nationality. You can be a Christian Japanese American.

So you claim but please point me to some Hebrew Christians who have been Christian for more than a couple generations. The original Christians were Jews. Can you distinguish their descendents from gentile Christians?

See the above train of logic. You have yet to refute it.

Again I ask: What is a Jew? For what were the Jews chosen? Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? And what is the role of Jews post-Jesus?

Now you are arguing for the sake of argument, and I refuse to argue. I have said my piece and that is it. NO MORE POSTS FROM ME ON THE SUBJECT!!! :sad_bye:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

Ask them if their membership includes the descendants of the first Jewish Christains.

Why don’t you ask them? :tsktsk:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Now you are arguing for the sake of argument, and I refuse to argue. I have said my piece and that is it. NO MORE POSTS FROM ME ON THE SUBJECT!!!

No, I am pointing out that this subject is more complex (and interesting) than your vague plattitudes imply.

Is anyone willing to treat this subject with the seriousness it deserves?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba:

Ask them if their membership includes the descendants of the first Jewish Christains.

Why don’t you ask them?

Because I already know the answer. (As will anyone who thinks about it for five seconds.)

 

[Lev23]

But when Jews accept Christ they lose their Jewish identity. If the difference between Christians and Jews is merely theological then the instant a Jew switches teams he’s not a Jew anymore. Insofar as being Jewish is a tribal affiliation, this is not an instant loss of Jewish identity but an eventual consequence since Jewish Christians intermarry with gentile Christians.

So either way, being a Jew means rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. And if the Jews are the Chosen People then God chose them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.

How about them apples!

Them apples are rotten.

Israel has experienced a partial hardening and their rejection is not complete, nor will it ever be.

**Romans 3:1-4
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”

Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

Romans 11:30-32
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.**

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Them apples are rotten.

If you don’t like the logical conclusion then you might want to revisit the premises.

Israel has experienced a partial hardening and their rejection is not complete, nor will it ever be.

Sort of like when God hardened Pharoh’s heart.

But imagine, for a moment, that Jews suddenly realized that Jesus was their Messiah and that they had been wandering in the desert for 2000 years. What then? Do they keep the Torah or not? Keep it by Rabbinical law or rebuild the Temple and ressurect Biblical Judaism?

 

[Abenadar]

Please keep in mind that God made an everlasting covenant with the Jews. Even though they turned their backs on Him many times, that covenant is still in effect. They are stilll His people, like it or not.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

So are you saying that Judaism is a means to salvation in the same way that Catholicism is?

You have said that Jews are still under the old law. How can this be? Christ is the fulfillment of that law, and today we have the Catholic Church. Remember the “new and everlasting covenant”? Are there two laws instead of one?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So are you saying that Judaism is a means to salvation in the same way that Catholicism is?

The concept of salvation was immature, at best, in Biblical Judaism. There is some evidence that the Pharisees were thinking about it but God made no such promise to the Israelites in the Torah or the Tanakh whcih is why the Sadducees (and many modern Jews) denied it.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The Jews were chosen to PRODUCE THE MESSIAH. Jesus said neither Jew nor Greek will come first. Jesus was produced to be led to the Gentiles.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

The Jews were chosen to PRODUCE THE MESSIAH. Jesus said neither Jew nor Greek will come first. Jesus was produced to be led to the Gentiles.

Huh

Please, please please stop posting until you actually know what the catholic church teaches.

Any cursory glance at threads you partake in will show you in what low esteem your apologetics are held in. You really really really do not know what you are talking about.

Please stop posting and misleading people.