The Chosen People

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OneTrueCathApos said:
No, then the Catholic church would be man-made as you say here and in which it is not. It was established from Jesus Christ, given to St. Peter to rule as the first pope in which Jesus again asked him to do so. All other religions ARE man-made.
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Nothing is more man-made than your belief that the gentile nations are now the sole chosen people of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel).
OneTrueCathApos said:
The Jews were chosen to present the Messiah to the people. This meant they were led to the Gentiles who are now the chosen people.
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Lev23 said:
Nothing is more man-made than your belief that the gentile nations are now the sole chosen people of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(Israel).
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I realize certain people cannot face the truth, but it is what it is. Jesus Christ IS now and forever.
 
Assuming we are goning to treat this subject seriously, a couple questions have to be faced head-on:
  1. For what were the Chosen People chosen?
  2. Is/was Jesus the Messiah of the Chosen People?
If you discount that Jesus is/was the Messiah then nothing has changed and the Rabbinical Jews made the right choice and the idea that Christianity has any claim on being the new Chosen People is patently absurd.

If the Hebrews were chosen to bring forth the Messiah and Jesus is/was the Messiah then their task was done 2000 years ago and the Rabbinical sect, which took a wrong turn in history, has simply led the descendants of the Chosen People into the desert. In this case, there is no more Chosen People, Jews or Christians.

The more interesting possibility is that Jesus is the Messiah but that the Hebrews were chosen for something more. In that case, the fact that Rabbinical Jews are currently wandering in the desert doesn’t necessarily disinherit them.

I think this last is a real possibility because the OT does not merely point to the Jesus of the NT but to the centrality of Israel and Jerusalem to God’s plan. If the Jews have faltered in their role it would not be the first time and in the OT, God never gave up on his Chosen People.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Assuming we are goning to treat this subject seriously, a couple questions have to be faced head-on:
  1. For what were the Chosen People chosen?
  2. Is/was Jesus the Messiah of the Chosen People?
If you discount that Jesus is/was the Messiah then nothing has changed and the Rabbinical Jews made the right choice and the idea that Christianity has any claim on being the new Chosen People is patently absurd.

If the Hebrews were chosen to bring forth the Messiah and Jesus is/was the Messiah then their task was done 2000 years ago and the Rabbinical sect, which took a wrong turn in history, has simply led the descendants of the Chosen People into the desert. In this case, there is no more Chosen People, Jews or Christians.

The more interesting possibility is that Jesus is the Messiah but that the Hebrews were chosen for something more. In that case, the fact that Rabbinical Jews are currently wandering in the desert doesn’t necessarily disinherit them.

I think this last is a real possibility because the OT does not merely point to the Jesus of the NT but to the centrality of Israel and Jerusalem to God’s plan. If the Jews have faltered in their role it would not be the first time and in the OT, God never gave up on his Chosen People.
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People please reread my original question.For the sake of arguement let us accept that they are truly the Chosen People.

If so WHY has our Lord chastised them for thousands of years fom the conquest by Rome,enslavement in Egypt,the Diaspora,the periodic pogroms and constant (primarily)European prejudice and persecution culminating in a Holocaust that almost emptied Europe of Jews?WHY???.
 
Soutane said:
People please reread my original question.For the sake of arguement let us accept that they are truly the Chosen People.
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Even for the sake of argument, you have to answer: chosen for what?
Soutane said:
If so WHY has our Lord chastised them for thousands of years fom the conquest by Rome,enslavement in Egypt,the Diaspora,the periodic pogroms and constant (primarily)European prejudice and persecution culminating in a Holocaust that almost emptied Europe of Jews?WHY???.
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In the OT they are chastised for a combination of reasons: their own “stiff neckedness” and God’s greater plan. See the prophtets’ explanations for the conquest of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea.

Rome was conquering everyone in sight. Are you asking why God didn’t prevent Rome from conquering Israel as well? (In fact, Rome didn’t conquer Israel but was invited in by the Hasmoneons to settle a dynastic dispute.)

Rome’s initial relationship with Israel was very tolerant. It was only after several rebellions against Roman rule that Rome destroyed, first Jerusalem, and later Israel entirely. Antisemitism was thus born, all because the Jews would not tolerate Roman rule.

Most of Jewish history since then as been nothing more than an extrapolation of the attitudes of Romans (and later Christian Europeans) and Jewish homelessness that was the proximate result of their wars with Rome.

To see the situation clearly, imagine that the Jews of Jesus time had heeded his warnings and not made war on Rome. Rome would not have destroyed Israel. Judaism would have been Christianized and Jerusalem would have remained the center of Christianity, in all likilihood, competing with Rome for political power as Rome later competed with secular kingdoms. The Jews would not have been the object of scorn but Priests to the world.
 
Sorry,I meant to say "or,ALLOWED them to be persecuted or chastised"Which He clearly did.I am not intimating that they desrved His wrath because of some medieval concept of the “guilt of the Christ-killers”,I am looking for theological reasoned thought as to why this has happenened to this People.I believe that salvation comes from the Jews.I also believe that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled.
 
Is it not possible that God did chastise the Jews? It is said that God chastises those he loves. This is only a thought. Shalom Chevarim.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
NO CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code: 
 The notion that God has chosen any one race or ethnic group over all others strikes me as silly. To begin with, the Bible tells us that God is no respecter of any particular group. We also read that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. Besides, Jesus often lifted up non-Jews for special praise. For example, the Good Samaritan - while the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. And who was the one leper of ten healed who returned to give thanks? The Samaritan.

  Why have the Jews faced persecution in past years? Let me suggest a few reasons.
(1) As stated already, they refused to ‘integrate’ into the larger society. (2) They often looked down on the goyim - gentiles - and Orthodox Jews would, for example, declare a son or daughter dead if he or she married a goy. (3) In the ‘old days’ some would libel Jesus as a bastard child and worse. (4) They were, as a rule, quite successful, which led to resentment and jealousy. (5) Often they got into businesses that some felt exploited others - e. g., lending, even peddling. (6) Catholicism once charged them with crucifying Jesus, quoting scriptural texts, and there even was a prayer until recent decades about the ‘perfidious Jews’. (7) The gospel of John, in particular, could be quoted against the Jews - and even now it is awkward when certain scriptural passages are read that tell of “for fear of the Jews” - etc.
Code: 
   In more recent years anti-Semitism has swelled in much of the world because tens of millions of people feel that Israel has learned little from the holocaust and has been grossly unfair to the Palestinians. It was enough to drive them from their homes in 1948, but to grab considerably more land in a 'preemptive war' Israel launched in 1967 was seen as wrong, and now Israel keeps expanding settlements, even in the face of opposition for many years from the USA, which has always backed Israel financially, militarily and diplomatically. Many Americans quietly resist the temptation to embrace anti-Semitism while, at the same time, they are angered and disgusted with the control the Israel lobby exercises over our Congress and others high in our government. Many even trace the roots of 9-11 to American subservience to Israel and its expansionist policies. The USA had suffered enormously - and is still suffering - because our policy toward Israel is not fair or balanced as it should be. I hope our government will change course and bring justice and peace to the Holy Land. I have been there on four pilgrimages and my heart goes out to the suffering Palestinians, many of them Christians. More and more US Jews are beginning to understand how Israel's policies hurt both Israel and the US over the long run. 

  God bless the Jews, the Palestinians, and the whole world. May hatred cease and we all live in peace and mutual respect.
 
Roy5 said:
NO CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code: 
 The notion that God has chosen any one race or ethnic group over all others strikes me as silly. To begin with, the Bible tells us that God is no respecter of any particular group. We also read that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. Besides, Jesus often lifted up non-Jews for special praise. For example, the Good Samaritan - while the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. And who was the one leper of ten healed who returned to give thanks? The Samaritan.

  Why have the Jews faced persecution in past years? Let me suggest a few reasons.
(1) As stated already, they refused to ‘integrate’ into the larger society. (2) They often looked down on the goyim - gentiles - and Orthodox Jews would, for example, declare a son or daughter dead if he or she married a goy. (3) In the ‘old days’ some would libel Jesus as a bastard child and worse. (4) They were, as a rule, quite successful, which led to resentment and jealousy. (5) Often they got into businesses that some felt exploited others - e. g., lending, even peddling. (6) Catholicism once charged them with crucifying Jesus, quoting scriptural texts, and there even was a prayer until recent decades about the ‘perfidious Jews’. (7) The gospel of John, in particular, could be quoted against the Jews - and even now it is awkward when certain scriptural passages are read that tell of “for fear of the Jews” - etc.
Code: 
   In more recent years anti-Semitism has swelled in much of the world because tens of millions of people feel that Israel has learned little from the holocaust and has been grossly unfair to the Palestinians. It was enough to drive them from their homes in 1948, but to grab considerably more land in a 'preemptive war' Israel launched in 1967 was seen as wrong, and now Israel keeps expanding settlements, even in the face of opposition for many years from the USA, which has always backed Israel financially, militarily and diplomatically. Many Americans quietly resist the temptation to embrace anti-Semitism while, at the same time, they are angered and disgusted with the control the Israel lobby exercises over our Congress and others high in our government. Many even trace the roots of 9-11 to American subservience to Israel and its expansionist policies. The USA had suffered enormously - and is still suffering - because our policy toward Israel is not fair or balanced as it should be. I hope our government will change course and bring justice and peace to the Holy Land. I have been there on four pilgrimages and my heart goes out to the suffering Palestinians, many of them Christians. More and more US Jews are beginning to understand how Israel's policies hurt both Israel and the US over the long run. 

  God bless the Jews, the Palestinians, and the whole world. May hatred cease and we all live in peace and mutual respect.
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Great post!👍
 
Roy5 said:
NO CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code: 
 The notion that God has chosen any one race or ethnic group over all others strikes me as silly. To begin with, the Bible tells us that God is no respecter of any particular group. We also read that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. Besides, Jesus often lifted up non-Jews for special praise. For example, the Good Samaritan - while the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. And who was the one leper of ten healed who returned to give thanks? The Samaritan.

  Why have the Jews faced persecution in past years? Let me suggest a few reasons.
(1) As stated already, they refused to ‘integrate’ into the larger society. (2) They often looked down on the goyim - gentiles - and Orthodox Jews would, for example, declare a son or daughter dead if he or she married a goy. (3) In the ‘old days’ some would libel Jesus as a bastard child and worse. (4) They were, as a rule, quite successful, which led to resentment and jealousy. (5) Often they got into businesses that some felt exploited others - e. g., lending, even peddling. (6) Catholicism once charged them with crucifying Jesus, quoting scriptural texts, and there even was a prayer until recent decades about the ‘perfidious Jews’. (7) The gospel of John, in particular, could be quoted against the Jews - and even now it is awkward when certain scriptural passages are read that tell of “for fear of the Jews” - etc.
Code: 
   In more recent years anti-Semitism has swelled in much of the world because tens of millions of people feel that Israel has learned little from the holocaust and has been grossly unfair to the Palestinians. It was enough to drive them from their homes in 1948, but to grab considerably more land in a 'preemptive war' Israel launched in 1967 was seen as wrong, and now Israel keeps expanding settlements, even in the face of opposition for many years from the USA, which has always backed Israel financially, militarily and diplomatically. Many Americans quietly resist the temptation to embrace anti-Semitism while, at the same time, they are angered and disgusted with the control the Israel lobby exercises over our Congress and others high in our government. Many even trace the roots of 9-11 to American subservience to Israel and its expansionist policies. The USA had suffered enormously - and is still suffering - because our policy toward Israel is not fair or balanced as it should be. I hope our government will change course and bring justice and peace to the Holy Land. I have been there on four pilgrimages and my heart goes out to the suffering Palestinians, many of them Christians. More and more US Jews are beginning to understand how Israel's policies hurt both Israel and the US over the long run. 

  God bless the Jews, the Palestinians, and the whole world. May hatred cease and we all live in peace and mutual respect.
Click to expand...
If the Jews are not God’s c Chosen People, then why did He help and support the Jews against their enemies? Why did he single out the Jews only? And why is it he bestowed myriads of gifts and made a covenant with the Jews only? Since only the Jews recognized and worshipped Him alone (although they turned their backs on Him many times and he still helped them) I consider the Jews God’s Chosen People, for which other nation did as the jews did? 🤷

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
DonLeon said:
If the Jews are not God’s c Chosen People, then why did He help and support the Jews against their enemies? Why did he single out the Jews only? And why is it he bestowed myriads of gifts and made a covenant with the Jews only? Since only the Jews recognized and worshipped Him alone (although they turned their backs on Him many times and he still helped them) I consider the Jews God’s Chosen People, for which other nation did as the jews did? 🤷

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
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Throughout the Old Testament, the Jews never listened to God. God called them “a stiff necked people”. They just did whatever they wanted to do. They made their own rules. God said He wished He had never made man.
The Jews were chosen to produce the Messiah, which led them to the Gentiles. They are no longer chosen. God loves everyone, but I am afraid the ones who have rejected, nor want to seek the truth in Christ will be judged harshly. More than the true believers of Christ.
 
QUOTE]

And your proof for this is ?

Huh? :confused: My proof is the Bible. Where do YOU find it not to be true?
[/quote]
 
There is a hidden reason for all this brothers, of which I do not want you to be ignorant, in case you think you know more than you do. One section of Israel has become blind, but his will last only until the whole pagan world has entered, and then after this the rest of Israel will be saved as well. As scripture says: The liberator will come from Zion, he will banish godlessness from Jacob, And this is the covenant I will make with them when I take their sins away.
Code: 
 The Jews are the enemies of God only with regard to the Good News, and enemies only for your sake; but **as the chosen people, they are still loved by God, loved for the sake of their ancestors.  God never takes back his gifts or revokes his choice.**
Romans 11:25-29
 
Roy5 said:
NO CHOSEN PEOPLE
Code: 
 The notion that God has chosen any one race or ethnic group over all others strikes me as silly. To begin with, the Bible tells us that God is no respecter of any particular group. We also read that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. Besides, Jesus often lifted up non-Jews for special praise. For example, the Good Samaritan - while the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. And who was the one leper of ten healed who returned to give thanks? The Samaritan.

  Why have the Jews faced persecution in past years? Let me suggest a few reasons.
(1) As stated already, they refused to ‘integrate’ into the larger society. (2) They often looked down on the goyim - gentiles - and Orthodox Jews would, for example, declare a son or daughter dead if he or she married a goy. (3) In the ‘old days’ some would libel Jesus as a bastard child and worse. (4) They were, as a rule, quite successful, which led to resentment and jealousy. (5) Often they got into businesses that some felt exploited others - e. g., lending, even peddling. (6) Catholicism once charged them with crucifying Jesus, quoting scriptural texts, and there even was a prayer until recent decades about the ‘perfidious Jews’. (7) The gospel of John, in particular, could be quoted against the Jews - and even now it is awkward when certain scriptural passages are read that tell of “for fear of the Jews” - etc.
Code: 
   In more recent years anti-Semitism has swelled in much of the world because tens of millions of people feel that Israel has learned little from the holocaust and has been grossly unfair to the Palestinians. It was enough to drive them from their homes in 1948, but to grab considerably more land in a 'preemptive war' Israel launched in 1967 was seen as wrong, and now Israel keeps expanding settlements, even in the face of opposition for many years from the USA, which has always backed Israel financially, militarily and diplomatically. Many Americans quietly resist the temptation to embrace anti-Semitism while, at the same time, they are angered and disgusted with the control the Israel lobby exercises over our Congress and others high in our government. Many even trace the roots of 9-11 to American subservience to Israel and its expansionist policies. The USA had suffered enormously - and is still suffering - because our policy toward Israel is not fair or balanced as it should be. I hope our government will change course and bring justice and peace to the Holy Land. I have been there on four pilgrimages and my heart goes out to the suffering Palestinians, many of them Christians. More and more US Jews are beginning to understand how Israel's policies hurt both Israel and the US over the long run. 

  God bless the Jews, the Palestinians, and the whole world. May hatred cease and we all live in peace and mutual respect.
Click to expand...
This is what it means to be Jewish - to be part of this great ancient nation - this huge talented extended family- to live by Torah so genetically part of you that even if you are not religious you instinctively react

dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-finalkindness_03met.State.Edition1.3bb29f7.html

Your post accusing the Jews of being responsible for all and any ill will toward them- even accusing us of 9/11 - is the antithesis of Jews, Judaism and Torah. Now I know that you are no Jew but I wonder whether your co religionists would consider you a good Christian?
 
chosen_people said:
This is what it means to be Jewish - to be part of this great ancient nation - this huge talented extended family- to live by Torah so genetically part of you that even if you are not religious you instinctively react

dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-finalkindness_03met.State.Edition1.3bb29f7.html

Your post accusing the Jews of being responsible for all and any ill will toward them- even accusing us of 9/11 - is the antithesis of Jews, Judaism and Torah. Now I know that you are no Jew but I wonder whether your co religionists would consider you a good Christian?
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I see this post as not “blaming” the Jews for anything. But to point out some matters that the Jews are responsible for some things. That doesn’t mean one is an anti-semite. Can’t anyone say anything regarding Jews without being an anti-semite? No matter what someone says, the Jews will take it as some sort of attack, as an anti-semite or declaring themselves constant “victims”. I get tired of it after a while. Jews are not a superior race. It is their actions and tones they put forward on others that makes them not liked by people, as if they are better than everyone. I of course will be labeled as such, but it just isn’t true.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
I see this post as not “blaming” the Jews for anything. But to point out some matters that the Jews are responsible for some things. That doesn’t mean one is an anti-semite. Can’t anyone say anything regarding Jews without being an anti-semite? No matter what someone says, the Jews will take it as some sort of attack, as an anti-semite or declaring themselves constant “victims”. I get tired of it after a while. Jews are not a superior race. It is their actions and tones they put forward on others that makes them not liked by people, as if they are better than everyone. I of course will be labeled as such, but it just isn’t true.
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Well for instance if someone - say yourself- posted something to the effect that that Jews are killing thousands of Palestinian (Arabs) everyday or if someone posted a really anti-Semitic post stating that Jews are responsible for their being hated by others and for 9/11 and then someone - say yourself- posted something like “great post” or if someone - say yourself- just wrote a post referring to “the Jews” or made statements in the post such as “Jews are not a superior race” which would imply that is what they claim to be - why I would certainly hope we could choose the kinder alternative that he is in fact simply a blatant anti-Semite.

However since you have pointed out that you are not an anti-Semite I am sure you will be open to the following:

The meaning of “chosen people” from a Jewish perspective has nothing in any way to do with superiority toward anything or anyone else. The meaning of chosen people is that Jews have taken on the extra burden of Torah and following the commandments. Judaism even teaches that God offered the Torah to all the other nations before the nation of Israel. It is Catholicism which teaches that anyone who does not believe what you do cannot find “salvation”. Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile to get into the world to come than for the Jew.

Now I may be wrong but I often get the feeling that some Catholics feel that the Jews should be punished for their rejection of Catholic beliefs and that the strengths and successes of Jews is somehow in opposition to the natural and proper order of things. Is there some basis for this feeling?
 
chosen_people said:
It is Catholicism which teaches that anyone who does not believe what you do cannot find “salvation”.
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Cite a source or admit that you are wrong.

Spreading false propaganda about The Catholic Chuch’s teachings is proof that you are anti-Catholic.

Anti-Catholic means that you are intentionally using deceptive practices to malign and slander the Catholic Church.
 
Answersplease said:
Cite a source or admit that you are wrong.

Spreading false propaganda about The Catholic Chuch’s teachings is proof that you are anti-Catholic.

Anti-Catholic means that you are intentionally using deceptive practices to malign and slander the Catholic Church.
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I am hardly an expert on Catholicism and would be happy to find out that I am wrong. However, I am basing myself on things that have been written to that effect repeatedly on this forum at various times.Now would you accuse those posters who have repeatedly stated that there is no salvation outside the Church as anti-Catholic who are slandering the Catholic Church or are such epitaphs aimed merely at someone like myself?
 
Note to Roy5:

I am not Jewish but I must state this in their defense. The Jew which you say is the trouble maker in many instances, is a Jew in name only. He is a secular Jew. I have never know a truly religious Jew, Orthodox, conservative, or reformed, to cause any
trouble or problem other than what we Christians do. Do not blame all Jews for what one
Jew does. Please learn the difference. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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