The Confusion of Catholicism

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PRmerger said:
Really? You think it’s a correct path to reject what is true because you were betrayed?

I think it’s understandable for someone to make this mistake…but it’s a very, very, bad way to live your life.

It’s a…mistake to do this.
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Firstly I haven’t argued that it isn’t a mistake, so please don’t imply that. I argued, if you would double check, based on your own statement, that we were not in a position to “recognise the folly”.

Secondly how were we to know what PRmerger thinks is “correct” and how important should it be to us if we did?

Thirdly there are billions of bad ways to live your or my life, God forbid 😦 .

Fourthly as I have plainly stated (please re-read), when there is sufficient mismatch the “true” message becomes mixed and doesn’t actually go home at all.

Fifthly let’s examine something else about betrayal, painful as it is. Every minute of every day, we are betrayed by commerce and politicians as well as by Catholics. Sometimes in ways that can be “presented” as “nice”, sometimes not. Seems to be a kind of human or planet-Earth type of hazard. Now given that God is a person and the Christian faith He is trying to roll out is personal, and given that PC wasn’t offered this, didn’t see it modelled, by the people around, at age 12 or before or since - so far - however “nice” they were, that is within the category of what we are talking about.

Sixthly you haven’t responded yet to my repeated point that this thread isn’t about how cleverly you can win an argument with PC. The subject of the thread is the emotions of those you seem to defend, more than PC’s.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
There have been several threads aimed at questioning, refuting, mocking, and jeering atheism lately. It seems that this particular sub-forum has become a place of open hostility toward atheism. I suppose that’s fair, considering that the wider internet is a place of open hostility toward all religion. But, I thought I would offer a theory of why there seems to be so much rancorous mutual hatred and disdain between christians/catholics and atheists/agnostics.

Before proceeding, I would like to clarify that I am an agnostic theist. I do have a personal history of hating Catholicism, but I am trying to get over it to the best of my ability. I have stated my personal bias ahead of time; hopefully this is a sufficient disclosure.

Here is my theory about why so many people hate and fear atheism/atheists:

1: The essence of what it means to be a Catholic is ambiguous and confusing.
There doesn’t seem to be any consensus on what it means to be a true Catholic. This website should be proof enough, but evidence abounds! Confusion reigns. Because of this, those who consider themselves Catholic and attempt to build their identities upon that idea are building on an ambiguous and shifting core. They cannot find a solid, rich, and nutrient-filled soil for them to root their egos.

2: Without a strong and clear identity, a negative definition emerges.
Because Catholics don’t know who they are, and consequently are unable to love themselves, they must turn outward to define what they are not. They hate the other, in order to give the ego something firm to grasp. Catholics are against such and such, they oppose so and so. Because they can’t agree, or even understand what they love they turn to hatred and fear in order to define themselves.

I believe that this same dynamic drives atheism. Of course atheists can’t agree on what to believe or who they are. There is no widespread agreement or consensus. Rather, there is a mutual disdain and hatred of religion and “blind faith.” Simply not believing in God or gods is insufficient to ground one’s ego. We need a mission, a purpose, a clear vision of ourselves (whether it is illusory doesn’t matter). Atheism and Catholicism are both ambiguous and open-ended. Because of this, each side turns to the invigorating clarity of hatred.

What do you think? Is this a plausible theory? Why or why not?

Also, I have to give credit to J.P. Sartre. I am adapting his theory of hatred in Réflexions sur la question juive to this situation of internet-based hatred.
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A biased view you have going there. Which reveals the weakness and inherent confusion of atheism.

Full disclosure, I am a convert from atheism. My immediate family, who I love, remain atheist.
 
PRmerger said:
Yeah, well…none of those examples were meant to be restrictive, but rather they were descriptive.

And I am 100% certain that something* like *the above examples happened to you.

100% certain.

No one has a self-described hatred for something based purely on its ideology or theology.

I may not be a psychologist, but I do access my reason as well as my experience quite well…

and no one hates the Catholic Church because she teaches that hell is eternal, God is a Trinity, Mary was ever-virgin, saints can intercede for us…

No one.

Now, if you want to assert here that there is no emotional component to the reasons for your hatred of the CC–that is, nothing bad happened to you and you simply left the CC out of desuetude, and this hatred is purely ideological, I will consider retracting…but let’s hear you assert this first.
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Certainly not desuetude, I still attend mass! :eek: Betchya didn’t see that coming!

Let me put it to you this way: I left because I think it isn’t true, and I’m angry, and ashamed that I believed it. I feel betrayed and deceived.

The more I learned, the more angry I became. But, as OneSheep has said, I need to forgive. I understand now that Catholicism isn’t an evil scam or something. It’s not Scientology. It wasn’t created on purpose, it just kind of happened as the result of many factors. The people who told me it was true had no idea what they were talking about and were tricked themselves! It’s not their fault.

Now, regarding emotions. The doctrine of eternal hell makes me very angry. I think it is disgusting, immoral, and blasphemous! Those who teach eternal hell impugn God’s goodness, though I understand they do not know what they’re doing. The true God is not the architect of hell, nor the puppet master of an evil demi-god satan. These are lies meant to terrify and control children. I do think it is a kind of child abuse to teach these lies to children, and it angers me. It’s spiritual abuse, and it poisons the soul against God.

So yes, my hatred that I am trying to leave behind is partly emotional. Everything I do is partly emotional, since I’m a human being and not a computer of course!
 
PRmerger said:
Nope, PC.

Try again.

You need something from the Magisterium.

Not something from Catholics, no matter how learned and saintly.

You should know that already that words of Catholics, no matter how holy, do not (necessarily) represent Catholic teaching.
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Nope, PR. Answer my question. Who was improperly catechized, and how do you know?
 
PRmerger said:
Sure. 👍

So I’m not sure what your big take-home message is regarding the putative ambiguous nature of Catholic teaching.

Surely you’re not saying this: because it’s (putatively) ambiguous, it can’t be true.

That couldn’t be logically correct, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to point out here?
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I am beginning to suspect this thesis is a little too subtle for you. I’m not arguing that Catholicism is totally false.

I’m arguing that it is ambiguous, and that this produces hate in the souls of people who dislike ambiguity, so they form hyper-exclusive subgroups and call it “real Christianity/Catholicism” The formation of those subgroups then in turn is what makes it ambiguous in the first place LOL!

Ultimately, I am interested in why Christianity produces so much in-fighting and internal war. How can the prince of peace be responsible for endless strife, disagreement, and war? I am looking for a deeper answer than “the devil” LOL.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Now, regarding emotions. The doctrine of eternal hell makes me very angry.
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A doctrine makes you angry?
I think it is disgusting, immoral, and blasphemous! Those who teach eternal hell impugn God’s goodness, though I understand they do not know what they’re doing.
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Or they elevate God’s allowance of free will.
The true God is not the architect of hell, nor the puppet master of an evil demi-god satan.
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That isn’t in any doctrine of hell that is considered orthodox.
These are lies meant to terrify and control children. I do think it is a kind of child abuse to teach these lies to children, and it angers me. It’s spiritual abuse, and it poisons the soul against God.
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I don’t know many (any) Catholics that teach their children about hell to scare them. I’ve heard of calvinists and evangelicals that do, but have never met one that did so.
Everything I do is partly emotional, since I’m a human being and not a computer of course!
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What’s the other part? There should be some balance.
 
PRmerger said:
Interesting…

I thought you were asserting here that you can’t even know what’s “soooo Catholic”.

Right?
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Well, it’s “Catholic” according to a specific subset of Catholics. Are they the “real” ones? How do you know?

BTW I totally recognize that mode of thought. “It’s like…wait…this is enjoyable and intuitive…God must be against it!!” :eek:
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Ultimately, I am interested in why Christianity produces so much in-fighting and internal war. How can the prince of peace be responsible for endless strife, disagreement, and war? I am looking for a deeper answer than “the devil” LOL.
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It’s called human free will. You don’t like something about Catholicism, and instead of attempting to learn with an open mind, you’ve already decided you “hate” something and that its “child abuse” - that’s the reason.
 
PRmerger said:
Now, you do realize, Vic, that in saying to check with the Scriptures (presuming you mean the Christian Scriptures, and not the Bhagavad Gita or the Book of Mormon or…) you’re saying that he should submit to the authority of the CC on this, yeah?

For there is no other way that he would know that the Epistle to the Hebrews, for example, is theopneustos, and that the Epistle of Clement is not, save for giving his tacit submission to the authority of the CC.
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Indeed!

A very good working hypothesis! (Partly because it is backed up by some other denominations.)
 
RebeccaJ said:
A biased view you have going there. Which reveals the weakness and inherent confusion of atheism.

Full disclosure, I am a convert from atheism. My immediate family, who I love, remain atheist.
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Everyone is biased. LOL!

I’m not an atheist. Welcome to the conversation. 👍

Yes, I specifically agree with you. The ambiguity of both Catholicism and Atheism are not satisfactory for many people, and I think they turn to hate to try to build an ego for themselves in opposition to what they reject.
 
SyroMalankara said:
It’s called human free will. You don’t like something about Catholicism, and instead of attempting to learn with an open mind, you’ve already decided you “hate” something and that its “child abuse” - that’s the reason.
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Do you think that “free will” is a good enough explanation for this? Could you explain why you find it to be satisfactory?

You’re right, my mind is basically closed on the subject of eternal hell. I am not willing to engage in a debate about it, because I don’t think it will benefit anyone.

I have debated about it extensively on this forum, feel free to read my old posts. I have a strong suspicion that I will be banned if I make another thread about it, and besides that my mind is made up. I believe I have examined the evidence well enough at this point, and I don’t believe in it. If you have some extraordinary evidence, I’m willing to examine it, but please do PM it to me rather than derail this thread.

Thanks!
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Well, it’s “Catholic” according to a specific subset of Catholics. Are they the “real” ones? How do you know?

BTW I totally recognize that mode of thought. “It’s like…wait…this is enjoyable and intuitive…God must be against it!!” :eek:
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So it’s not a Catholic thing, or it is a Catholic thing?

I’m confused by what you’re asserting.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
Certainly not desuetude, I still attend mass! :eek: Betchya didn’t see that coming!
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Actually, I had no thoughts about whether you attend Mass or not.

I hope you don’t receive communion, though.
So yes, my hatred that I am trying to leave behind is partly emotional. Everything I do is partly emotional, since I’m a human being and not a computer of course!
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Then you should conform you will to your intellect. Not to your emotion.
 
PRmerger said:
Free will and a darkening of the intellect and will caused by Original Sin.
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Oh so Christianity didn’t have too much of an effect on that huh? I mean, people have been killing/hating each other and whatnot for all of human history and it pretty much continued unabated regardless of the advent of Christianity.

Wasn’t it supposed to do something? Like…isn’t something supposed to have an effect on that “original sin?” :hmmm:

You realize your answer is essentially “people are dumb and do what they want.”

Is that truly satisfying for you?
 
PRmerger said:
Actually, I had no thoughts about whether you attend Mass or not.

I hope you don’t receive communion, though.

Then you should conform you will to your intellect. Not to your emotion.
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Um, yes you did. Or, did you have a different meaning for “desuetude?” I didn’t just slowly drift away or let it slide due to disuse.

Of course not! I am excommunicated. If only they would approve my official excommunication, then I wouldn’t have to go to mass anymore.

I’m a pragmatic person. I am fairly certain Catholicism isn’t true, but just in case, I’d rather not rack up tons of sins. I mean, I heard that my eternal torture will be a little bit less awful if I don’t sin so much by not going to mass.
 
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