The Devil is in the Catholic Church

[takers]

I really have a hard time with the whole NFP thing. On one hand the Church tells us that no one is created by accident and who is not part of God’s plan. That God has to will a person to exist and utimately He creates that person, not us. This is very hard for me to explain, but I don’t understand how anyone can say it’s o.k. to limit their families at all? Doesn’t that kind of take away from God’s utimate plan? What if you were avoiding a pregnancy and missed out on a person God had intended for? Or got pregnant during a time you did not want to? Isn’t the ultimate goal eternity for all of us? What does it mean then, when people say that God will not give you more than you can handle? It’s not really completely up to us how many children we have. Ultimately, it’s up to God. There are people who try and try and get no children. There are those who think they are avoiding and end up pregnant. Is it more important to have a big house to live in and 2cars, or for God to have that many more eternal souls with Him in heaven for His glory? I struggle with this myself, when trying to discern whether or not to avoid using NFP. snip

In watching one of the Theology of the Body DVDs this topic came up and the presenter had an answer that I thought was really great. Take the analogy of having sex is like inviting God to a party. Every time you have sex (withing the confines of marriage, of course) you’re sending God an invite. Now, God can make the decision to accept the invite (make a baby) or not accept the invite (not make a baby). But, if you use birth control it’s similar to sending God an invite (having sex) but then telling God not to come to the party (through using BC). Sending an invite then telling a person to not show up is pretty rude. Through NFP you either send an invite or don’t send an invite. Either way, you’re not being rude to God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hey, great suggestions to help the poor, love one’s neighbor, etc.

As a convert to the Catholic faith, my understanding of what it means to help the poor and love my neighbor has undergone a great transformation. I used to be a liberal, maybe not as radical as your Grandma, but, anyway, in those days my idea of helping the poor and loving my neighbor was to pass out more condoms so that the poor would not overpopulate and cause more suffering for themselves and others. Now, largely due to hearing thoughtful discussions on EWTN by the likes of Kimberly and Scott Hahn, I understand that my previous attitude was anything but compassionate and loving toward my neighbor. The change is a positive one, I believe, and has been reflected in my giving of my time and treasure to the poor.

My point is that these forums which discuss issues such as contraception vs. Natural Family Planning can bring about great change and a more loving attitude. Jesus calls us to become more loving people. Sometimes the curriculum in our schools, etc., actually hinders us in this, so these forums and EWTN, etc. can be very helpful, as they have been for me.

Incidentally, I believe the devil is real, not just metaphorical. However, I am not a Muslim, so I don’t know about their practice of stoning objects, etc.

I never said that I endorse going door to door giving out free condoms. I’m just saying that I notice very few Catholic radio shows, TV shows, EWTN, magazines, etc. just getting off their butts and teaching how to live. Jesus did not spend 24 hours a day talking about sex issues and reproduction. I’m not saying those issues are trivial but if one were to listen to EWTN for very long there are only a few issues raised: abortion, contraception, euthanasia. Protestants constantly preach the Good News in their media, how to live one’s life in Christ, how to respond to the Holy Spirit, ministry to the infirm/ill/in prison/enemies, how to forgive, how to overcome grief, etc. On Catholic media it’s abortion, condoms, abortion, condoms…You guys are obsessed. I think the birth control pill is not the only problem with the known universe. It just gets old hearing about it. “Orthodox” strict Catholics seem to butt in their noses under everyone’s bed sheets more than living an exemplary life and getting out the Good News. I dare, I double dare ya, go seven days without saying these words: “contraception,” “condoms,” “birth control pill,” etc. The Giants have a better shot at beating the Patriots than these forums do of keeping birth control out of the convo for a week!

 

[sacredcello]

I never said that I endorse going door to door giving out free condoms. I’m just saying that I notice very few Catholic radio shows, TV shows, EWTN, magazines, etc. just getting off their butts and teaching how to live. Jesus did not spend 24 hours a day talking about sex issues and reproduction. I’m not saying those issues are trivial but if one were to listen to EWTN for very long there are only a few issues raised: abortion, contraception, euthanasia. Protestants constantly preach the Good News in their media, how to live one’s life in Christ, how to respond to the Holy Spirit, ministry to the infirm/ill/in prison/enemies, how to forgive, how to overcome grief, etc. On Catholic media it’s abortion, condoms, abortion, condoms…You guys are obsessed. I think the birth control pill is not the only problem with the known universe. It just gets old hearing about it. “Orthodox” strict Catholics seem to butt in their noses under everyone’s bed sheets more than living an exemplary life and getting out the Good News. I dare, I double dare ya, go seven days without saying these words: “contraception,” “condoms,” “birth control pill,” etc. The Giants have a better shot at beating the Patriots than these forums do of keeping birth control out of the convo for a week!

I was just kidding about passing out condoms – I certainly wasn’t going door to door. But, I was definitely in favor of the pro-choice agenda.

In those days, before converting to the Catholic faith, I saw many Protestan Christians friends and family members living together before marriage, and certainly using contraception. I thought it was ok and even “loving.”

Thanks to many good Catholic sources, I now have a great appreciation for the virtue of chastity (both before and after marriage through NFP). It’s not that I want to intrude in anyone else’s business, but it sure would be nice to have a friend or two who can appreciate this virtue. Sadly, the only place I meet them are on this forum.

I am thankful for the fullness of truth given to us through apostolic teaching. This includes chastity, as well as all the other virtues, including caring for the poor, elderly, in prison, etc. Catholic Charities has the greatest track record in this regard.

 

[luvmykids]

I never said that I endorse going door to door giving out free condoms. I’m just saying that I notice very few Catholic radio shows, TV shows, EWTN, magazines, etc. just getting off their butts and teaching how to live. Jesus did not spend 24 hours a day talking about sex issues and reproduction. I’m not saying those issues are trivial but if one were to listen to EWTN for very long there are only a few issues raised: abortion, contraception, euthanasia. Protestants constantly preach the Good News in their media, how to live one’s life in Christ, how to respond to the Holy Spirit, ministry to the infirm/ill/in prison/enemies, how to forgive, how to overcome grief, etc. On Catholic media it’s abortion, condoms, abortion, condoms…You guys are obsessed. I think the birth control pill is not the only problem with the known universe. It just gets old hearing about it. “Orthodox” strict Catholics seem to butt in their noses under everyone’s bed sheets more than living an exemplary life and getting out the Good News. I dare, I double dare ya, go seven days without saying these words: “contraception,” “condoms,” “birth control pill,” etc. The Giants have a better shot at beating the Patriots than these forums do of keeping birth control out of the convo for a week!

Contraception is contrary to the Church’s teaching on respect for life and for each other. If we are lacking in our respect for life and for each other, how can we go out and live one’s life in Christ, respond to the Holy Spirit, minister to the infirm, etc. If we don’t even have enough respect for our own spouses, giving ourselves fully to them and our family, how can we minister to our enemies/imprisoned, and learning how to forgive others. It all starts in this one basic area, which has never before been so disregarded and overlooked. … our basic respect for life, which in turn allows us to love one another, and become selfless human beings. This is the only way to live the rest of our lives as Christ did. I think the protestants are overlooking this most fundamental part of it all, and is something that has become so accepted by the ENTIRE society and so mainstream that I believe the media like EWTN are responding to this crisis appropriately. I don’t think sex has ever permeated our daily lives in the way that it currently does. (By the way, I have seen other things on EWTN, and lots of them.)

 

[distracted]

Jesus did not spend 24 hours a day talking about sex issues and reproduction.

Jesus also never said (as far as anyone knows) “accept Me as personal savior”.
Another thing: Jesus did talk a lot about Hell (not 24 hours a day, but then, EWTN / this forum / Catholics generally doesn’t talk about any one subject like b. control, etc. “24 hours a day” either, as you claim). Yes, i know you are using hyperbole, but you go too far. In any case, the reason Jesus spoke so much about Hell was because He knew how easy it was to go there (and to Purgatory, which is very painful…). He knew people would end up there by rejecting Him - rejecting His Church (its teachings about birth control and/or whatever).No, i am not syaing people go to Hell JUST for using birth control - but that whole mentality of “I’m going to do things my way because it’s my life (no birth control for me)” CAN/does lead to Hell…

Protestants constantly preach the Good News in their media, how to live one’s life in Christ, how to respond to the Holy Spirit, ministry to the infirm/ill/in prison/enemies, how to forgive, how to overcome grief, etc.

Excuse me, but i don’t recall hearing Protestants talk much - at all (!) about “ministry to the infirm (etc)”…
And when I have heard them talking about how to forgive, I don’t recall ever hearing them talk about how a woman can forgive Herself after having an abortion - something the Catholics do talk a lot about. Even when women who’ve aborted are forgiven by Christ, they still struggle to forgive themselves… a very serious problem. And respond to the Holy Spirit? I believe many a Protestant hears the Holy Spirit speaking through the Catholic Church and yet they continue to turn their backs and take the easy way (rather than the “narrow way” spoken by Christ…). Jesus said many times that it is not easy getting to Heaven.
I have listened to Catholic radio/ watched EWTN & i don’t recall them focusing solely on these issues… Why are you exaggerating so much?

…You guys are obsessed.

Frankly, i think it is rude -& again exaggering - for you to say this. I just don’t get it that people here or on EWTN are “obsessed” w/ any one particular issue.
Could it be that it is YOU who are obsessed with their so-called obsession because you don’t believe birth control is wrong??

It just gets old hearing about it. “Orthodox” strict Catholics seem to butt in their noses under everyone’s bed sheets more than living an exemplary life and getting out the Good News.

Again, i don’t know of any Catholics who are nosing into people’s business in the bedroom. In fact, i have NEVER heard a homily at Mass about the sin of using b. control and i have been Catholic all my life and have attended daily Mass for many years now. Maybe EWTN is trying to make up for that negligence??? Someone surely needs to.
Most Catholics these days, if anything, are very wimpy about proclaiming the teachings of the Church… I have NEVER heard a lay Catholic talk in a public setting (at a job site, college campus or wherever) against birth control. Again, i’ve been Catholic all my life…

I double dare ya, go seven days without saying these words: “contraception,” “condoms,” “birth control pill,” etc.

I dare Protestant ministers on TV to go one sermon without saying “accept Christ as your personal savior” - Words Found NOwhere in Scripture!!!
I’ve found that most TV evangelists are too busy spouting off their own (often erroneous) interpretations of Scripture instead of actually READING the Word of God VERBATIM from the Bible, as is done at Mass. In the Catholic Church, Scripture is read 26% on Sunday @ Mass… It is only read 2 - 6% at most Protestant services…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Jesus also never said (as far as anyone knows) “accept Me as personal savior”.

Excuse me, but i don’t recall hearing Protestants talk much - at all (!) about “ministry to the infirm (etc)”…
And when I have heard them talking about how to forgive, I don’t recall ever hearing them talk about how a woman can forgive Herself after having an abortion - something the Catholics do talk a lot about. Even when women who’ve aborted are forgiven by Christ, they still struggle to forgive themselves… a very serious problem. And respond to the Holy Spirit? I believe many a Protestant hears the Holy Spirit speaking through the Catholic Church and yet they continue to turn their backs and take the easy way (rather than the “narrow way” spoken by Christ…). Jesus said many times that it is not easy getting to Heaven.
I have listened to Catholic radio/ watched EWTN & i don’t recall them focusing solely on these issues… Why are you exaggerating so much? Frankly, i think it is rude -& again exaggering - for you to say this. I just don’t get it that people here or on EWTN are “obsessed” w/ any one particular issue.
Could it be that it is YOU who are obsessed with their so-called obsession because you don’t believe birth control is wrong??

Again, i don’t know of any Catholics who are nosing into people’s business in the bedroom. In fact, i have NEVER heard a homily at Mass about the sin of using b. control and i have been Catholic all my life and have attended daily Mass for many years now. Maybe EWTN is trying to make up for that negligence??? Someone surely needs to.
Most Catholics these days, if anything, are very wimpy about proclaiming the teachings of the Church… I have NEVER heard a lay Catholic talk in a public setting (at a job site, college campus or wherever) against birth control. Again, i’ve been Catholic all my life…

I dare Protestant ministers on TV to go one sermon without saying “accept Christ as your personal savior” - Words Found NOwhere in Scripture!!!
I’ve found that most TV evangelists are too busy spouting off their own (often erroneous) interpretations of Scripture instead of actually READING the Word of God VERBATIM from the Bible, as is done at Mass. In the Catholic Church, Scripture is read 26% on Sunday @ Mass… It is only read 2 - 6% at most Protestant
services…

Distracted, you crack me up. Turn on EWTN radio or TV and there are only a few topics they discuss over and over again: contraception, abortion, stem cells, Mary, Popes, infallibility, the Eucharist, etc. Contraception gets more play on EWTN radio than beer at a Superbowl. So, come on, dude. I never said that it gets play AT CHURCH. Everyone knows that Catholicism locally is wimpy and bland. On the radio and conservative Catholic media you guys jibber-jabber till the cows come home about rubbers, pills, and getting a vasectomy.
I was simply making the point (and it’s true) that protestant media focuses more on living one’s life properly, how to deal with sin, how to deal with enemies, forgiveness, how to witness, how to change one’s life, etc. I have listened to shows about how to deal with infidelity, poverty, debt, etc. I switch to EWTN and it’s around the clock 24/7 APOLOGETICS! Catholics don’t need to be armed 24 hrs a day with how to fight/argue/debate issues. They need a little bit of how to live your life, how to live the life Christ wants. They need counsel, preaching, and inspiration, not constant apologetics. You yourself gather steam, strength, and personal gratification from the fact that you, like a Pharisee, follow laws and EARN your salvation. You mock protestants for saying they accept Christ as their “personal savior?” WHY? Christ is both personal AND corporate, they need not be mutually exclusive. Just because that term is not explicitely in scripture means zippo to me. The Eucharist is both personal and corporate. Christ appears to us each differently because our circumstances, situations, addictions, ideas, etc. vary. And he also appears to us all in the sacraments.

You yourself need to focus more on the justification of faith in Christ and a little less in your own works. You seem pretty sure of yourself and how inferior protestants and people who use birth control are. Pull out the beam in your eye pal!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Who pee’d in YOUR Cheerios???

 

[sacredcello]

Who pee’d in YOUR Cheerios???

Gurneyhalleck1 is just trying to antagonize the few Catholics here (less than 5%) who are actually open to life in their marriages. That’s ok, I don’t think he’s going to confuse anyone by his remarks (except himself, of course).

Notice his earlier post. He said that if something is being taught by Protestants, but it is not in the scriptures, it means “zippo” to him.

Catholic teaching is always based on scripture.

 

[brycerunner]

How so? Call me ignorant, but when I attend mass I see
a lot of ‘hurting people’ who walk out of the parish crying…where
are those who attend to these people’s needs? Isn’t this what Scripture teaches? Maybe I attend the wrong parish!

 

[sacredcello]

How so? Call me ignorant, but when I attend mass I see
a lot of ‘hurting people’ who walk out of the parish crying…where
are those who attend to these people’s needs? Isn’t this what Scripture teaches? Maybe I attend the wrong parish!

I have often cried during Mass because of my own sins or sometimes being overwhelmed by God’s mercy. I cried last weekend when they baptized 9 children at the 10:30 Mass. These were tears of joy, of course.

In the past, when I have needed counseling, I have simply made an appointment with my parish priest. My pastors have always been very generous in this way with their time.

 

[whatevergirl]

Gurneyhalleck1 is just trying to antagonize the few Catholics here (less than 5%) who are actually open to life in their marriages. That’s ok, I don’t think he’s going to confuse anyone by his remarks (except himself, of course).

Notice his earlier post. He said that if something is being taught by Protestants, but it is not in the scriptures, it means “zippo” to him.

Catholic teaching is always based on scripture.

Actually that is not what was said…he said that about the term ‘personal savior’ not being found in Scripture, but because that phrase is not in Scripture doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t look to Jesus as a personal Savior. I think that was more along the lines of what he was saying.

Just wanted to interject that.

 

[sacredcello]

Actually that is not what was said…he said that about the term ‘personal savior’ not being found in Scripture, but because that phrase is not in Scripture doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t look to Jesus as a personal Savior. I think that was more along the lines of what he was saying.

Just wanted to interject that.

Yes, I agree, that we should always look to Jesus as a personal Savior.

Yes, there are plenty of mature Protestants living their faith and doing good works, helping the poor, etc. And, there are just as many Catholics doing the same.

Yes, we love Jesus, but we also love His Church and her teachings which includes being open to life.

 

[whatevergirl]

How so? Call me ignorant, but when I attend mass I see
a lot of ‘hurting people’ who walk out of the parish crying…where
are those who attend to these people’s needs? Isn’t this what Scripture teaches? Maybe I attend the wrong parish!

hi bryce;

can you elaborate on what you mean? I think I know, but don’t want to assume. Thanks!

 

[brycerunner]

Hmmmm…can you tell me which Parish you attend?
Mine seems to be a bit ‘stale.’

 

[brycerunner]

Sure…I mean this:

When I attend the Parish I currently attend, there is no means, that I know of, to meet with others who want to study the word together and live out the Scripture through charity work, etc. I find myself often attend Mass strictly out of reverence to Christ, but miss the connection needed to continue in the faith. That is why I joined this forum…needing connection…perhaps it’s just my Parish and I need to seek another…

 

[whatevergirl]

Sure…I mean this:

When I attend the Parish I currently attend, there is no means, that I know of, to meet with others who want to study the word together and live out the Scripture through charity work, etc. I find myself often attend Mass strictly out of reverence to Christ, but miss the connection needed to continue in the faith. That is why I joined this forum…needing connection…perhaps it’s just my Parish and I need to seek another…

Okay–I thought that’s what you meant, but it never hurts to ask! I too belonged to a rather sleepy parish, I like to refer to it as, back in PA. I loved the parish, but it seemed to lack in community for ALL AGES. Seems like there were really only programs catering to the needs to the senior population of the parish, and I think parents complained…and now there are more groups, from what I hear. I hear ya–it’s important to have a sense of community within our parish walls. You might want to ask your parish priest about it…and hey–you could pilot a program? I actually started a bookclub two years ago, at my parish–it didn’t last long because of weather issues, etc…but, where there is a will–there is a way. Maybe God is reaching out to you to start a group in your parish.

 

[distracted]

Who pee’d in YOUR Cheerios???

Cheerieos are full of sugar & other undesirable things so i don’t care if anyone… uh, does that…

 

[mom_of_ten]

As to taking the control out of God’s Hands and into our own because of financial situations…I wanted to share a quote from a recent paper that my seventeen year old son wrote in his Catholic Doctrine Class. He was instructed, impromptu, to write a timed, 40 minute essay on contraception, and this quote pertains to “finances” as a reason to limit family size:

He writes: “Many people in poor financial situations use contraception on the grounds that they can not afford to support yet another child. This is an unacceptable excuse; even if it is worthy of much sympathy. God is good, and would not give the gift of life if it were not the absolute best for us; whom He created out of love. Those who are in this situation must trust in God; that He will provide.”

It touched my heart that my young son clearly empathizes with those who struggle financially…(he would know since my husband and I have ten children, one income, and struggle pay check to pay check to get by…IN GOD’S GRACE)…but moreover, I was very moved that my son CLEARLY sees all children as GIFTS FROM GOD…even when it may appear to our finite human vision that it might not be “the best” time to have a baby. His writing gives me much hope from our young people for the future of our Church and the world.

Also, as to having one baby after another causing “trauma”…as I said, we are blessed with ten children…and six of those are aged seven and under…while it is true that parents blessed in this way might not be able to give the same amount of undivided attention to our current little ones as we did to our older children…my own experience has been, that, not only DOESN’T it cause trauma; but rather, it has been a cause of service and giving and spiritual growth for ALL members of our family in that we must try so hard to deny ourselves and be ready and willing to offer a helping hand to those in need…(and there’s ALWAYS a little one in need, it seems!)

As my son wrote in his paper, we must trust in God to provide…and I find this to mean not only providing finances and temporal needs…but the very graces needed to be completely open to His Will of giving new life. If couples allow themselves to trust (and I do not negate that this, in difficult family times, can be a struggle) in the Lord…He WILL provide the necessary graces to be always open to life…to bring forth those blessings…and to raise them in His Way…struggles and all.

There’s ALWAYS room for one more! (Unless, of course, God chooses not to send them)

Peace to All,
mom of ten

 

[rpp]

I do not think the two can be directly related? The two issues of family size and contraception do not go together.

Family sizes are smaller for real world reasons as you say, but it comes down to being able to raise a family at a size you can support economically and emotionally. 1-3 children are manageable (for most) and anything bigger is hard to balance in today’s world.

I know this is an old post, but I did not see a response that made this observation.

First, the first sentence is so out there that is certainly disqualifies the person from being able to make realistic observations. Clearly this person is trying to make a point that cannot be made without distorting logic. If you have to do that, the point cannot be valid.

For what was said in the second post to be true, our generation would have to be economically worse off and more poor than all previous generations of people. That is clearly false. We can see that people who live in “third world” countries often have many children. It is the industrialized nations where birth rates are often near or below sustainable levels. What is more likely to be true is that people living in industrialized nations want to collect more stuff and spend their money on unneeded luxuries. This is known as “selfishness”. This is not a new thing.

Conclusion
A selfish or indulgent person is not likely to be willing to abstain from sex in order to avoid children. Instead, a selfish or indulgent person will want to indulge their lust, just like they indulge their other appetites. To do this while avoiding children, they must contracept. This little exercise in logic demonstrates that pretty much everything in this post, except basic spelling and grammar, was incorrect.

 

[mom_of_ten]

One more thought:

Just as we often counter a pro-choice or pro-abortionist’s words pertaining to “fetuses” or"embryo" with pro-life words such as “BABY” and “NEW LIFE”…I encourage those who use NFP or those or contracept to change the language of “trying to avoid pregnancy” with the more specific statement of: “trying to avoid and blessing and gift from God”…this really helps me keep things in perspective!

The devil can only enter our Catholic Church if WE open the door to him…married couples are the ONLY creations of God who can take part (validly) in bringing forth new life…this gift/power can GREATLY and SWIFTLY defeat the enemy’s attempts to break down our Church.

God Bless!