The dilemma of suffering

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Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
 
Perhaps God desires us to help Him to build His Kingdom which means fighting, which means contending against evil with the power of Good, which means going also through a state of becoming to get where we need to be. We are soldiers on a battle field. And so our life involves being configured to Christ. That means the cross must be part of each one of our lives on some level. But it is also a bit of a mystery at the same time, it seems.

Suffering exposes a person to fire. It is a refining.

One of my favorite songs is by Amy Grant, she says:

“The same sun that melts the wax can harden clay
And the same rain that drowns the rat will grow the hay
And the mighty wind that knocks us down
If we lean into it
Will drive our fears away.”

youtube.com/watch?v=e3_prpBm5LY
 
Bahman said:
Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
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Age “A” is Adam before his sin. There was no suffering and no death according to our teaching. So God really did a better thing than what you wanted. God therefore had no intention when he made Adam for man to suffer. God is Love.

Blessed be God who comforts us in all our trials.
 
Bahman said:
Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
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This is a good and thoughtful question. Suffering in Christianity is called what is a "mystery, which means in simple terms that we do not understand exactly how it “works.” What we do believe is that the fallen situation of man apart from God was caused by man’s own free will. We also know that the solution to that problem was solved through the suffering of the incarnate Christ. Following his suffering was the glorious resurrection. Remember that. We also believe that when Christian’s suffer, we are united to Christ in his suffering. Therefore, in a mysterious way, suffering with Christ is a means to attain that glorious resurrection and happy union with God. So, as truly difficult as it is for us, and unpleasant, we believe God in His wisdom permits that suffering because it has saving quality for the next life.

God did not create this suffering per se. That was a result of free will. Free will is necessary to love someone, so God gave us free will. Free will also allows us to choose evil, and that is how suffering entered the world. So in a mysterious way, God transformed that suffering, the very lining of creation, into the means by which we could be saved. In Catholic terms, God “sacramentalized” creation by raising it up. Instead of suffering being senseless evil, he transformed it into his own suffering as Christ, the means of salvation, saved by the very blood he suffered.
 
Some people make their own suffering and some suffering comes from God and should be embraced. Pain is a part of life. He who takes up the Cross and follows Jesus finds life. It is possible to be at peace in the midst of great suffering with Christ. Without Him it does get rather burdensome and unbearable.

Glenda
 
fred_conty said:
Age “A” is Adam before his sin. There was no suffering and no death according to our teaching. So God really did a better thing than what you wanted. God therefore had no intention when he made Adam for man to suffer. God is Love.

Blessed be God who comforts us in all our trials.
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So according to you the fall was necessary.
 
MarcoPolo said:
This is a good and thoughtful question. Suffering in Christianity is called what is a "mystery, which means in simple terms that we do not understand exactly how it “works.” What we do believe is that the fallen situation of man apart from God was caused by man’s own free will. We also know that the solution to that problem was solved through the suffering of the incarnate Christ. Following his suffering was the glorious resurrection. Remember that. We also believe that when Christian’s suffer, we are united to Christ in his suffering. Therefore, in a mysterious way, suffering with Christ is a means to attain that glorious resurrection and happy union with God. So, as truly difficult as it is for us, and unpleasant, we believe God in His wisdom permits that suffering because it has saving quality for the next life.

God did not create this suffering per se. That was a result of free will. Free will is necessary to love someone, so God gave us free will. Free will also allows us to choose evil, and that is how suffering entered the world. So in a mysterious way, God transformed that suffering, the very lining of creation, into the means by which we could be saved. In Catholic terms, God “sacramentalized” creation by raising it up. Instead of suffering being senseless evil, he transformed it into his own suffering as Christ, the means of salvation, saved by the very blood he suffered.
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Nah. This is not consistent. Suffering was either avoidable or not. Suffering is either useful or not. What is your answer? It is not fair to put the blame on Adam and Eve not giving them the whole picture, assuming that their story is right.
 
glendab said:
Some people make their own suffering and some suffering comes from God and should be embraced. Pain is a part of life. He who takes up the Cross and follows Jesus finds life. It is possible to be at peace in the midst of great suffering with Christ. Without Him it does get rather burdensome and unbearable.

Glenda
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How about finding your own road? The path toward truth has infinite folds.
 
Bahman said:
Nah. This is not consistent. Suffering was either avoidable or not. Suffering is either useful or not. What is your answer? It is not fair to put the blame on Adam and Eve not giving them the whole picture, assuming that their story is right.
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Adam and Eve walked with God. How can you say they didn’t have the whole picture?
 
davidv said:
Adam and Eve walked with God. How can you say they didn’t have the whole picture?
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How they could walk with God? How they could imagine the whole picture which is eternity? How they could be real?
 
Bahman said:
So what is your response to OP?
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My response is that the OP is a faulty proposition. It contains a number of logical fallacies that are too intertwined to respond to effectively in this venue.
 
davidv said:
My response is that the OP is a faulty proposition. It contains a number of logical fallacies that are too intertwined to respond to effectively in this venue.
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Where are those logical fallacies so we could discuss them?
 
davidv said:
I don’t know. That they did is recorded in scripture.
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God is not a physical being so how they could walk with God?
davidv said:
I don’t know? Where you there to interview them?
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No, but it is evident to me that what we call it truth is not exhaustive.
davidv said:
How could they not be real?
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Because, they could not walk with God. Because of the tree which should be there. Because of existence of Satan there. Because, we are either their children or the result of intelligent design but not both. Because, the story of fall if no necessary has to much weight to put it on shoulders of a human being. And because of OP…
 
We could start here:

And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise

Is this figurative or literal, and if figurative, what exactly does it mean. It is conceivable that it is literal. God is God and He can do what He wills because He is all powerful, if He wants to take a form for Adam and Eve to see, He could have done so.
 
JamalChristophr said:
We could start here:

And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise

Is this figurative or literal, and if figurative, what exactly does it mean. It is conceivable that it is literal. God is God and He can do what He wills because He is all powerful, if He wants to take a form for Adam and Eve to see, He could have done so.
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So, lets see what is your position: From your first post I can conclude that suffering is a necessary thing. So the story of fall if it is really true was a setup to make human fall hence we could grow up. Did I sum it up well? Otherwise, what is your response to OP since considering God as omnipotent he could avoid all human suffering.
 
Hello Bahman.
Bahman said:
So according to you the fall was necessary.
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This is what we mean when at Easter we say, “Oh happy fault!” If they didn’t fall, you wouldn’t be. It gets no simplier than that.

Glenda
 
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