The dilemma of suffering

[Linusthe2nd]

But God knows whether we will be loyal or not because he is omniscient. So why bother to create thing from starting.

The fact that God knows that suffering will happen is part of God’s Omniscience, he knows all things, good and bad. He allows suffering, not for itself, but because making good out of that suffering is part of his Omnipotence. And God’s Omnipotence means that nothing, even in this world will defeat the goodness of his plan to reconcile all things to himself as their good end. If he disallowed suffering it would detract from his goodness and Omnipotence.

Linus2nd.

 

[Bahman]

The fact that God knows that suffering will happen is part of God’s Omniscience, he knows all things, good and bad. He allows suffering, not for itself, but because making good out of that suffering is part of his Omnipotence. And God’s Omnipotence means that nothing, even in this world will defeat the goodness of his plan to reconcile all things to himself as their good end. If he disallowed suffering it would detract from his goodness and Omnipotence.

Linus2nd.

This I understand. So you agree that creating the thing at the end is beyond power of God hence we have to get through to become good. Isn’t this a limitation on omnipotence?

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

I understand what you say but I am not convinced since it doesn’t resolve the dilemma. Let me put it in plain word. The purpose of life can only be something which God and no-one else cannot grant it. It is a personal journey which opens things that can only be opened by the person. Hence, following other people path to my understanding is a blind act. We have to get through separately and we can make it if we can open the door toward divine love and mind.

I don’t expect to “convince” you of anything at all. That is God’s job. Mine is talking about things so your mind may open a little to His possibilities. It is His work and His will. I simply try to help a little. You are on the right track in thinking that no one else can grant life. He is the Author of all life. Life is His gift to you. What you do with it can be your gift back. But this has to be your choice, a turning of your will towards Him. Jesus is a gentle Man. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

But God knows whether we will be loyal or not because he is omniscient. So why bother to create thing from starting.

Magnanimous.

Why bother have an earth teeming with human life? To give trillions of folks the possibility of Heaven with Him. Sure a few will go to Hell. Why create them? Because God gives life to give the possibility. All persons have the ability to be saved. God has given to mankind everything he needs to be saved. Yet each has a choice to reject this gift and many, many do. That is the sad fact of life. What about you? Will you continue to reject this gift because we, being simply human, “fail” to give you all the answers you need before you take the leap of faith? That is the real question you have to answer in your heart and soul and eventually in your life. But take your time. God doesn’t need any more half-baked half-hearted pew potatoes.

Glenda

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman.

Magnanimous.

Why bother have an earth teeming with human life? To give trillions of folks the possibility of Heaven with Him. Sure a few will go to Hell. Why create them? Because God gives life to give the possibility. All persons have the ability to be saved. God has given to mankind everything he needs to be saved. Yet each has a choice to reject this gift and many, many do. That is the sad fact of life. What about you? Will you continue to reject this gift because we, being simply human, “fail” to give you all the answers you need before you take the leap of faith? That is the real question you have to answer in your heart and soul and eventually in your life. But take your time. God doesn’t need any more half-baked half-hearted pew potatoes.

Glenda

Why hell is bad if suffering is good? :bounce:

 

[davidv]

Why hell is bad if suffering is good? :bounce:

Who said suffering was good?

The Church teaches that good can come from suffering if we unite it with that of Jesus’ suffering on the cross.

 

[Bahman]

Who said suffering was good?

The Church teaches that good can come from suffering if we unite it with that of Jesus’ suffering on the cross.

And what does that type suffering grant which other suffering lacks?

Could you also please answer to post #39?

 

[davidv]

And what does that type suffering grant which other suffering lacks?

Righteousness.

Could you also please answer to post #39?

From that post:

This was your answer: “Unknowable answer. We cannot have the mind of God, and He hasn’t revealed the answer.” This was an answer to dilemma which was about suffering. So we have to either agree that God is not omnipotent and omniscience or such a dilemma requests a logically impossible action. Which one is in your opinion?

Neither. Your present a false dichotomy.

A perfect, omnipotent and omniscient God does not present a contradiction by allowing suffering. This may be nonsense to you, but that is a problem that you must resolve for yourself.

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

Why hell is bad if suffering is good? :bounce:

I like this one: Hell is a choice people make. Choose wisely. You will live an eternity of your own choices. No one goes to Hell by accident.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

And what does that type suffering grant which other suffering lacks?

Could you also please answer to post #39?

I’ll present a fleshed out version of what kind of god you’re suggesting: I won’t make any people because seeing the future they will just turn away from my son and I’ll have to send them to hell and they will suffer for eternity, so I will not allow any lives to be made, then I can sit on my throne and worship myself because I’m the only perfect being! God as an egomaniac. Is this kinda what you had in mind? Really.

And being female I can actually see in this a contraceptive mentality. I won’t give birth to children because they will do bad things and suffer pain in life and bad things will happen, so I won’t allow life in my womb because bad things will happen and those lives will suffer. And being convinced I’m right about this, I imagine God thinks the same way and if He doesn’t, He should or He isn’t God.

Glenda

 

[Bahman]

Righteousness.

To me suffering is positive if it does something right otherwise it is always negative. Do you mean that the suffering of kid who has cancer and s/he doesn’t believe in Jesus is vain?

Neither. Your present a false dichotomy.

Huh?

A perfect, omnipotent and omniscient God does not present a contradiction by allowing suffering. This may be nonsense to you, but that is a problem that you must resolve for yourself.

Yes, because nothing can comes out of perfection!

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This I understand. So you agree that creating the thing at the end is beyond power of God hence we have to get through to become good. Isn’t this a limitation on omnipotence?

No, his will for us is that we use our freedom to work out our salvation. But since he created us with a free will he cannot force us to choose what is always right. It was not his will to force us to choose what is right. His will was and is to grant salvation to all who choose to do what is right. That is the key to his Omnipotence, his will is to let us choose. His glory is made more manifest by those who freely choose him than by slaves who have no choice. And his purpose in creating us and the universe was to show forth his glory. And that is seen and displayed more fully, more perfectly by what is freely done by us.

Linus2nd

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

To me suffering is positive if it does something right otherwise it is always negative. Do you mean that the suffering of kid who has cancer and s/he doesn’t believe in Jesus is vain?

Huh?

Yes, because nothing can comes out of perfection!

Sometimes prolonged suffering moves the sufferer to call out to God! Then they meet Him where they are and turn to Him for Salvation. This is a no-brainer. There are no atheists in foxholes either.

I think those who expect that a relationship with Christ should mean they are spared all human suffering from the time they turn to Jesus until death are actually expecting God to be some sort of fairy godmother who waves a magic wand and turns pumpkins into coaches and mice into doormen and life into a magical mystery tour! Reality it every life has suffering in it. There’s no way out of it except death. To expect a life without as a proof of God’s existence in one’s life or the lives of others is to expect an alternate reality than the one we all have.

Glenda

 

[Bahman]

No, his will for us is that we use our freedom to work out our salvation. But since he created us with a free will he cannot force us to choose what is always right. It was not his will to force us to choose what is right. His will was and is to grant salvation to all who choose to do what is right. That is the key to his Omnipotence, his will is to let us choose. His glory is made more manifest by those who freely choose him than by slaves who have no choice. And his purpose in creating us and the universe was to show forth his glory. And that is seen and displayed more fully, more perfectly by what is freely done by us.

Linus2nd

You mention that we become perfect through suffering. My question was then whether God being omnipotent has the power to create the end result without causing a creature to suffer? If yes why he didn’t so and if no how he could be omnipotent. In simple word is creating the end result a logically impossible act for God?

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman.

I like this one: Hell is a choice people make. Choose wisely. You will live an eternity of your own choices. No one goes to Hell by accident.

Glenda

Why eternal? Non of our action has eternal effect. :bounce:

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman.

**I’ll present a fleshed out version of what kind of god you’re suggesting: I won’t make any people because seeing the future they will just turn away from my son and I’ll have to send them to hell and they will suffer for eternity, so I will not allow any lives to be made, then I can sit on my throne and worship myself because I’m the only perfect being! God as an egomaniac. Is this kinda what you had in mind? Really. **

And being female I can actually see in this a contraceptive mentality. I won’t give birth to children because they will do bad things and suffer pain in life and bad things will happen, so I won’t allow life in my womb because bad things will happen and those lives will suffer. And being convinced I’m right about this, I imagine God thinks the same way and if He doesn’t, He should or He isn’t God.

Glenda

No that was not what I meant. First I don’t agree with the concept of living eternally in the hell since all our actions has finite effect. But anyhow, if God is love then why he didn’t create the end result which all creation is happily lives with him?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You mention that we become perfect through suffering. My question was then whether God being omnipotent has the power to create the end result without causing a creature to suffer? If yes why he didn’t so and if no how he could be omnipotent. In simple word is creating the end result a logically impossible act for God?

Every man suffers something in his life. But God does not cause the suffering, it is sin which is the cause of suffering, our sins, the sins of others and the sin of Adam and Eve.
But all suffering can be meritorious, if we accept it and offer it to God as penance for our sins and the sins of the world. This gives glory to God, for then we are helping him turn evil into good.

So suffering does not detract from God’s Omnipotenece. God’s purpose for all creation is to give himself glory. So suffering does not detract from his Ominipotence. The end result of creation is to give God glory and that will always be done in the end. And that is all that matters.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

Every man suffers something in his life. But God does not cause the suffering, it is sin which is the cause of suffering, our sins, the sins of others and the sin of Adam and Eve.
But all suffering can be meritorious, if we accept it and offer it to God as penance for our sins and the sins of the world. This gives glory to God, for then we are helping him turn evil into good.

So suffering does not detract from God’s Omnipotenece. God’s purpose for all creation is to give himself glory. So suffering does not detract from his Ominipotence. The end result of creation is to give God glory and that will always be done in the end. And that is all that matters.

Linus2nd

You are not answering my questions!

 

[glendab]

Hello Bahman.

No that was not what I meant. First I don’t agree with the concept of living eternally in the hell since all our actions has finite effect. But anyhow, if God is love then why he didn’t create the end result which all creation is happily lives with him?

Denial isn’t a river in Egypt. The trap door you drop thru “I don’t beleive that…” doesn’t change a thing. Eternity exists. God exists. Hell exists. They are real no matter how vehemently you deny them. They will not change because you refuse to acknowledge them. But they will be your ultimate destiny when your life is over. Happily ever after is only in fairy tales. The real world is real. So is God and much about Him that you deny, especially His love for you. Jesus loves you. So smile. You have some hope if you can get over your worst thinking.

Glenda

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman.

Denial isn’t a river in Egypt. The trap door you drop thru “I don’t beleive that…” doesn’t change a thing. Eternity exists. God exists. Hell exists. They are real no matter how vehemently you deny them. They will not change because you refuse to acknowledge them. But they will be your ultimate destiny when your life is over. Happily ever after is only in fairy tales. The real world is real. So is God and much about Him that you deny, especially His love for you. Jesus loves you. So smile. You have some hope if you can get over your worst thinking.

Glenda

I am a good Jesus friend. :bounce: