The dilemma of suffering

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Bahman said:
You mention that we become perfect through suffering. My question was then whether God being omnipotent has the power to create the end result without causing a creature to suffer? If yes why he didn’t so and if no how he could be omnipotent. In simple word is creating the end result a logically impossible act for God?
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How could God creat a human with a free will and still guarantee that this human being would merit salvation? That would be a violation of the principle of contradiction. You cannot impose an outcome on a free will. If you do that, the will is not free. God’s glory is made more manifest by the free choice of those who choose to do good than he would be by slaves who followed him because they were forced to. Even if the majority of mankind is lost, God’s is more glorified by the few who will freely choose to do good. So his Omnipotence is made perfect by his choice to create men and angels with free will.

Linus2nd
 
Bahman said:
Why eternal? Non of our action has eternal effect. :bounce:
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Actually they do.St. Thomas explains that big punishments (like exile) for crimes that last a moment (adultery, murder, etc.)

newadvent.org/summa/2087.htm
Punishment is proportionate to sin in point of severity, both in Divine and in human judgments. In no judgment, however, as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xxi, 11) is it requisite for punishment to equal fault in point of duration. For the fact that adultery or murder is committed in a moment does not call for a momentary punishment: in fact they are punished sometimes by imprisonment or banishment for life–sometimes even by death; wherein account is not taken of the time occupied in killing, but rather of the expediency of removing the murderer from the fellowship of the living, so that this punishment, in its own way, represents the eternity of punishment inflicted by God. Now according to Gregory (Dial. iv, 44) it is just that he who has sinned against God in his own eternity should be punished in God’s eternity. A man is said to have sinned in his own eternity, not only as regards continual sinning throughout his whole life, but also because, from the very fact that he fixes his end in sin, he has the will to sin, everlastingly. Wherefore Gregory says (Dial. iv, 44) that the “wicked would wish to live without end, that they might abide in their sins for ever.”"
 
Linusthe2nd said:
How could God creat a human with a free will and still guarantee that this human being would merit salvation? That would be a violation of the principle of contradiction. You cannot impose an outcome on a free will. If you do that, the will is not free. God’s glory is made more manifest by the free choice of those who choose to do good than he would be by slaves who followed him because they were forced to. Even if the majority of mankind is lost, God’s is more glorified by the few who will freely choose to do good. So his Omnipotence is made perfect by his choice to create men and angels with free will.

Linus2nd
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You didn’t answer my question. But never mind dude. I have another question for you. At the end of the time when those people who believe in God go to heave, would they still have free will? They could fall as Satan fell and this cycle of falling never ends.
 
[SIGN][/SIGN]
Bahman said:
You didn’t answer my question. But never mind dude. I have another question for you. At the end of the time when those people who believe in God go to heave, would they still have free will? They could fall as Satan fell and this cycle of falling never ends.
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No. They will still continuously choose for all eternity to be with God.
 
Bahman said:
Then why Satan fell?
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The initial test allowed for the Angels who wouldn’t serve to be kicked out. When the Angels were created they quickly made their choice. Those who chose God and stayed obstinate in their choice will choose that for all eternity. Those who choose not to follow Him (like Satan) will never repent.
 
cena said:
The initial test allowed for the Angels who wouldn’t serve to be kicked out. When the Angels were created they quickly made their choice. Those who chose God and stayed obstinate in their choice will choose that for all eternity. Those who choose not to follow Him (like Satan) will never repent.
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And why the same thing can never happen to human?
 
Bahman said:
So according to you the fall was necessary.
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How do you justify this? If you mean God has an obligation and for a lack of reasons for allowing things to happen a given way, that needs some explication.
 
Bahman said:
Nah. This is not consistent. Suffering was either avoidable or not. Suffering is either useful or not. What is your answer? It is not fair to put the blame on Adam and Eve not giving them the whole picture, assuming that their story is right.
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This assumes that Adam and eve lacked an understanding of the gravity of sinning. I have not experienced jail, but I know that disobeying the law and robbing a bank is a bad idea.
 
Bahman said:
And why the same thing can never happen to human?
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I do not know why it can’t happen or whether it can happen to humans, I don’t know what God know/wills. Somehow I doubt any human knows, except that he was more merciful to humans, I guess.
 
DanAl said:
How do you justify this? If you mean God has an obligation and for a lack of reasons for allowing things to happen a given way, that needs some explication.
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I think that story of Adam and Eve is false because of OP. A God who is merciful (love is too much), omnipotent, omniscient doesn’t leave his children in state of suffering unless suffering does something beyond God’s power.
 
DanAl said:
This assumes that Adam and eve lacked an understanding of the gravity of sinning. I have not experienced jail, but I know that disobeying the law and robbing a bank is a bad idea.
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Is this just from a God who has divine Justice?
 
cena said:
[SIGN][/SIGN]

None of the Angels who chose God will ever fall either. Once you die you have made your choice
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But I can choose God after death and change my mind after being in heaven. So what is the guarantee? Non. We could fall as angel fell.
 
Bahman said:
But I can choose God after death and change my mind after being in heaven. So what is the guarantee? Non. We could fall as angel fell.
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No we can’t. Once you die your will is set for all eternity
 
Hello Bahman.
Bahman said:
You didn’t answer my question. But never mind dude. I have another question for you. At the end of the time when those people who believe in God go to heave, would they still have free will? They could fall as Satan fell and this cycle of falling never ends.
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At death all choice ends for the soul. It is judged upon the choices it made in life and according to that particular judgement is given Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. If it goes to Heaven it is a Saint and there is no more choice because being perfected they will be spending their eternity with the object of their love, the Holy Trinity. If they are given Purgatory they are being perfected and still no choice available because the object of this purification is to be able to do that which the first soul does already, that is love God perfectly. The third soul is in Hell and in a way has achieved the object of their rejection of God in their lifetime, the absence of God in Hell for all of eternity. Those in Hell really do get their way. The joke is the theme song in Hell is “I did it my way!”

Glenda
 
Hello Bahman.
Bahman said:
I think that story of Adam and Eve is false because of OP. A God who is merciful (love is too much), omnipotent, omniscient doesn’t leave his children in state of suffering unless suffering does something beyond God’s power.
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Suffering in life is not permanent. No matter how hard it gets, this isn’t it. In Heaven there is no suffering. That is one of the “benefits” of being there - eternal bliss. Learn more about Heaven and some of your questions will be answered.

From your comments above I can infer your real dilemma is that if God loves you why would He let you, His child and the object of His love, go to Hell to suffer or even to suffer in this life. This is where you keep getting stuck. But this is your dilemma, not God’s. All He wants to do is love you and guide you to Him and Heaven the ultimate reason He pursues your poor soul. But it is you who keep Him out.

Glenda
 
Hello Bahman.
Bahman said:
But I can choose God after death and change my mind after being in heaven. So what is the guarantee? Non. We could fall as angel fell.
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No, as I said before. After death the soul can no longer make any choices. At the time of death the soul is judged upon the choices they made during life and they are given either Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. The lack of understanding you have of the fundamentals of our faith is part of the reason you cannot come to a logical conclusion. Your looking at the picture in pieces and some of your pieces are missing and some are from an entirely different picture and will never fit in the frame.

Glenda
 
Bahman said:
Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
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Why give people the memory of suffering if they didn’t suffer?
 
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