The dilemma of suffering

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Hello again Bahman.
How about finding your own road? The path toward truth has infinite folds.
The path towards truth for me is Mary who leads me to Jesus Christ her divine Son. I’m consecrated according to the Montfort formula and sometimes it shapes how I relate to things. At least it is supposed to. My own road led nowhere and I needed help thats how I found God and found out He wasn’t lost, I was.

Glenda
 
Hello again Bahman.

The path towards truth for me is Mary who leads me to Jesus Christ her divine Son. I’m consecrated according to the Montfort formula and sometimes it shapes how I relate to things. At least it is supposed to. My own road led nowhere and I needed help thats how I found God and found out He wasn’t lost, I was.

Glenda
Formula! Huh. I rather let it go wherever it may leads rather than following a formula. :bounce:
 
Hello Bahman.
God is not a physical being so how they could walk with God?

No, but it is evident to me that what we call it truth is not exhaustive.

Because, they could not walk with God. Because of the tree which should be there. Because of existence of Satan there. Because, we are either their children or the result of intelligent design but not both. Because, the story of fall if no necessary has to much weight to put it on shoulders of a human being. And because of OP…
Here is your dilemma. You have a concept of a god of your own making who as you state above has a no physicality. You are limiting our replies to fit your concept of a god and if we talk of the God we know, you deny not only Him but the validity of what we say because it doesn’t fit with a god you’ve constructed in your mind. So in all fairness for the sake of argument, you’d have to disclose to us all the attributes of the god that exists for you so we can compare and contrast the two, Jesus Christ to your personal “higher power.” Otherwise, we won’t be able to chat cohesively.

Glenda
 
You summed it up fairly well, I think.
Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
Well, I’m not a perfect saint [yet] by any means. lol And so, I’m saying, I have difficulty like everyone almost with suffering.

But from a purely stoical perspective, suffering does not last. It did not last for Christ though it was terrible and beyond what 100% if not 99% of all humans can experience in this life. He passed through it. It came to an end. We believe this too as Christians. Suffering, like pleasure, is a transient thing.

I trust that suffering is more valuable and necessary than I can fathom though I understand it a very small amount. Christians are compelled to trust, because many things cannot be fully understood in this life. That is why we consider Faith as so fundamental in our relationship with God.

That is my answer for now…hope it might be of some small help…I might try again if you’re still not satisfied…suffering is a hard thing to wrap one’s mind around and much of it consists of surrender for the Christian, in a sense.
 
Hello Bahman.

Here is your dilemma. You have a concept of a god of your own making who as you state above has a no physicality. You are limiting our replies to fit your concept of a god and if we talk of the God we know, you deny not only Him but the validity of what we say because it doesn’t fit with a god you’ve constructed in your mind. So in all fairness for the sake of argument, you’d have to disclose to us all the attributes of the god that exists for you so we can compare and contrast the two, Jesus Christ to your personal “higher power.” Otherwise, we won’t be able to chat cohesively.

Glenda
My God flip-flops, I find that God is inconsistent right away after I find a definition for it, so I stop chasing it. Just kidding. I don’t know what God is but know what God isn’t. To me God is our ignorance. Be careful that my definition is double-side sword. The idea is to seek the truth, know the truth, and truth will set us free. At the end of the road we will know, until then! :bounce:
 
Hello Bahman.
My God flip-flops, I find that God is inconsistent right away after I find a definition for it, so I stop chasing it. Just kidding. I don’t know what God is but know what God isn’t. To me God is our ignorance. Be careful that my definition is double-side sword. The idea is to seek the truth, know the truth, and truth will set us free. At the end of the road we will know, until then! :bounce:
I’m all done :bounce: I hit the wall and hurt myself :banghead:. I much prefer pure joy and contemplation of love while I’m being loved from the inside out while God speaks to my soul in Holy Communion. When you’ll all done :bounce: you could :crossrc: and know His Peace. It really is the only way to get it.

Glenda
 
Hello Bahman.

I’m all done :bounce: I hit the wall and hurt myself :banghead:. I much prefer pure joy and contemplation of love while I’m being loved from the inside out while God speaks to my soul in Holy Communion. When you’ll all done :bounce: you could :crossrc: and know His Peace. It really is the only way to get it.

Glenda
Ummmm. I have experienced that. I am looking for some serious pain. :bounce:
 
Hello Bahman.
Ummmm. I have experienced that. I am looking for some serious pain. :bounce:
No Bahman, you don’t want some serious pain. I am disabled and pain is a way of life for me. I was attracted to this thread today because I’m in a lot of pain today and can literally barely walk today. It is that bad. I’m on the computer to help keep myself distracted. My drugs are failing me. You really shouldn’t joke about pain and suffering. It isn’t pleasant. It is hard and not for weaklings. I’ve even considered calling the ambulance today and going thru the rigamorole of it to get the better drugs so the pain will go away. The only thing that moves without pain today is my fingers and my eyes. I’m trying not to think like that. It really is useless. But I do have pity parties with the itty bitty shi__y commitee in my head and it gets ugly fast. Pray for me.

Glenda
 
Hello Bahman.

No Bahman, you don’t want some serious pain. I am disabled and pain is a way of life for me. I was attracted to this thread today because I’m in a lot of pain today and can literally barely walk today. It is that bad. I’m on the computer to help keep myself distracted. My drugs are failing me. You really shouldn’t joke about pain and suffering. It isn’t pleasant. It is hard and not for weaklings. I’ve even considered calling the ambulance today and going thru the rigamorole of it to get the better drugs so the pain will go away. The only thing that moves without pain today is my fingers and my eyes. I’m trying not to think like that. It really is useless. But I do have pity parties with the itty bitty shi__y commitee in my head and it gets ugly fast. Pray for me.

Glenda
I am so sorry to hear that. I wish you some inner strength. We all need it in the time of weakness.
 
Thanks Bahman.

I appreciate it. To me it is simply the Cross and there is plenty of strength in that. Just thinking about it makes it easier.

Glenda
 
Where are those logical fallacies so we could discuss them?
Ok, God foresee future.
Strawman
He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A?
Unknowable answer. We cannot have the mind of God, and He hasn’t revealed the answer.
People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow.
Speculation.
Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
Strawman.
 
A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent’s argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.

-Wiki.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
 
Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
The whole point of our lives is to prove our loyalty to God. I don’t think anyone escapes some form of suffering, though some people seem to get more than their share. There is a great spiritual benefit and reward from accepting suffering as God’s will. Even the suffering of children has a great benefit - for the children. Remember God rewards both in this life and in the life to come.

Also there is a matter of justice. God is just and those who are evil will suffer either in this life or the life to come, perhaps in both.

Linus2nd

Linus2nd
 
Hello again Bahman.

Last post for the night then I gotta hit the hay.

You say this: “So you are worshiping a God who didn’t even explain what is the purpose of suffering?” and David labeled it as speculation. I say it is plain wrong. He did explain suffering to us. It is redemptive. We take up our Cross and follow Him. Look at a Crucifix. It explains suffering and death. They do serve God’s purpose. He explained it then and there are is an ubber amount of writings by Saints and sinners explaining the suffering we call redemptive. If you really need explanations of all of it, read some of their writings. Start with St. John of the Cross and his Dark Night of the Soul.

Glenda
 
Could you please elaborate? Do you agree that God foresee future or not?
No I don’t agree. God is immutable. Coming to know a future implies a change from not knowing to knowing. God has no potentiality, therefore he has no future, nor past for that matter.
So you are worshiping a God who didn’t even explain what is the purpose of suffering?
No. You drew the wrong conclusion from what I wrote.
That is not a speculation. It is true.
Why?
Could you please elaborate?
No.
 
Ok, God foresee future. He is also omnipotent. Now consider a creation going from a given starting age A to another end age A’. People do things in this period, right or wrong, and feel different, sad or happy, etc. What is matter at the end is the memory of people at later age A’ since time passes by anyhow and we are left with memory only. The question is why then God doesn’t create things at age A’ with the memory between A to A’ rather than create things at age A? People couldn’t possibly know or object about situation since they have memory of their actions anyhow. Why make people to suffer if you know the end result?
While I’m far from having the full answer to this, like everybody else except God, I suppose in the end it boils down to free will, or the effect of sin.

I’m (slowly) reading a book on the problem of evil. It’s a bit technical, but the author posited two incidents, one of which was a real event (the human one), and the other is quite likely.

The first was a real event in which a five year old girl was bashed, raped and murdered by her mother’s boyfriend (moral evil).

The second was a hypothetical event in which Bambi the fawn is trapped by a forest fire, badly burned but survives in agony for a few days after being trapped by a fallen tree (natural evil).

Neither case has anything to commend it from a character building point of view. The little girl was five years old. And Banbi was a fawn. But God decreed, in a sense, that these two things should be allowed to happen.

If some “good” should come out of it, then it’s somewhat difficult to see.

What it does say to me is that Hell must be pretty b____y awful! If God’s prepared to allow the entirely innocent to suffer like this, what happens to those destined to destruction? I say this because I’ve often recounted what happened the night my father died, when he appeared in my room.

I still remember the absolutely terrifying scream just before he disappeared again. It was just sheer terror.

But I’m a long way from understanding the “meaning of suffering” and what seems to me the disproportionate and unequal levels of suffering in this world. And for that matter, eternal punishment in hell for finite sins on earth.

But since God exists, and since God has a plan, then He must think it all worthwhile.

That’s cold comfort when you’re suffering yourself, or you hear about suffering like the two cases above.
 
Hello again Bahman.

Last post for the night then I gotta hit the hay.

You say this: “So you are worshiping a God who didn’t even explain what is the purpose of suffering?” and David labeled it as speculation. I say it is plain wrong. He did explain suffering to us. It is redemptive. We take up our Cross and follow Him. Look at a Crucifix. It explains suffering and death. They do serve God’s purpose. He explained it then and there are is an ubber amount of writings by Saints and sinners explaining the suffering we call redemptive. If you really need explanations of all of it, read some of their writings. Start with St. John of the Cross and his Dark Night of the Soul.

Glenda
I understand what you say but I am not convinced since it doesn’t resolve the dilemma. Let me put it in plain word. The purpose of life can only be something which God and no-one else cannot grant it. It is a personal journey which opens things that can only be opened by the person. Hence, following other people path to my understanding is a blind act. We have to get through separately and we can make it if we can open the door toward divine love and mind.
 
No I don’t agree. God is immutable. Coming to know a future implies a change from not knowing to knowing. God has no potentiality, therefore he has no future, nor past for that matter.
That I know. I didn’t say that God is understanding future. I said God foresees/knows future. Could we agree on this.
No. You drew the wrong conclusion from what I wrote.
This was your answer: “Unknowable answer. We cannot have the mind of God, and He hasn’t revealed the answer.” This was an answer to dilemma which was about suffering. So we have to either agree that God is not omnipotent and omniscience or such a dilemma requests a logically impossible action. Which one is in your opinion?
It is true if we accept that God is omniscience and omnipotent. So either there is no God, or such act is logically impossible which I don’t understand why?
Come on be a little kind.
 
The whole point of our lives is to prove our loyalty to God. I don’t think anyone escapes some form of suffering, though some people seem to get more than their share. There is a great spiritual benefit and reward from accepting suffering as God’s will. Even the suffering of children has a great benefit - for the children. Remember God rewards both in this life and in the life to come.

Also there is a matter of justice. God is just and those who are evil will suffer either in this life or the life to come, perhaps in both.

Linus2nd

Linus2nd
But God knows whether we will be loyal or not because he is omniscient. So why bother to create thing from starting.
 
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