The E.U. Is Coming for Catholics

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GKMotley said:
Caution is required.

Something like a list of constraints, limitations, guarantees. Call it …say… a bill of rights or something.
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There’s plenty of those already. More than enough I’d even say.

The EU is constrained to the point of being basically powerless. The “unelected bureaucrats” are all appointed by their respective countries to ensure the EU never goes against the will of individual nations. Even when Poland and Hungary essentially destroyed the principle of division of governmental power (by making the executive branch able to indirectly control the judiciary), they still had a veto vote and only allowed to resolve the gridlock after negotiations.

If anyone thinks this is a kind of “dictatorship” for lack of a better word, then it is the most toothless dictatorship in history.
 
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Unilateral succession was deemed unconstitutional correct. However, our state and local legislative rights are more liberal than the EU-liberal in that they allow each state to make more laws that promote the will of the people of that state. Each state in the U.S. can determine abortion limits and legislation as long as it is not outlawed entirely. It sounds like the EU wants to determine what whole countries can and cannot make into law if it does not fit their social agenda-abortion, LGBTQAI rights. That sounds a bit authoritarian to me.
 
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Polygamy is not a religious practice for Mormons or Muslims per se, it’s just that for some its their preference for their life and situation. And then there is the harm that comes from women being coerced into situations like that…especially after already being in a natural marriage. And all practices that involve animal and human cruelty should be outlawed. As your right to practice religion can’t infringe on a beings right to live. What I see in EU countries is that conscientious objections to things like a nurse not wanting to perform an abortion are not allowed.


In the U.S. we do not have to deal with such oppressive tactics like being fired for our religious beliefs in all of our actions because we can conscientiously object even in the workplace environment.
 
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Interesting. Thanks for the perspective, I appreciate it. I’m an American so I leave your business to you :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:. I’m hoping however that Britain is enough of an economic powerhouse to make trade deals that work well over time without the EU.
 
The 1000 page EU constitution apparently makes no mention of the Christian foundation or history of modern Europe.

Personally, the EU will ultimately fail. A union from bottom up is fine. The concept of top-down regimentation is littered with the shipwrecks of history. In this union, there is no unifying foundation, no seamless garment. Only secular governmental power.
 
Monica83 said:
. Each state in the U.S. can determine abortion limits and legislation as long as it is not outlawed entirely
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Well the same applies to the member states of the European Union, of course. In fact matters such as abortion have been determined to be exclusively the province of the member states.

The powers, such as they are, of the central bodies of the EU are only such as have been agreed in treaties signed by all member states. And those central bodies are not autonomous: the Parliament is directly elected by the citizens; the European Council is made up of heads of government of the member states; the European Commission is appointed by the heads of government in council, and requires the assent of the Parliament. You may, perhaps, see some degree of parallel with the House, the Senate and the Executive of the US. The system has drawbacks, but it is certainly democratic.
 
po18guy said:
The 1000 page EU constitution apparently makes no mention of the Christian foundation or history of modern Europe
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How different is that from, say, the US Constitution?
po18guy said:
In this union, there is no unifying foundation, no seamless garment. Only secular governmental power
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The seamless garment, the unifying foundation, of the European Union is the search for peace in a continent so often and so tragically riven by war. It has developed by the consent of its members from the Coal and Steel Community, founded in 1950 as a first step towards the binding together of those long-term enemies, France and Germany. The declaration by the French foreign minister, Robert Schuman, at the time has been frequently quoted:
The pooling of coal and steel production should immediately provide for the setting up of common foundations for economic development as a first step in the federation of Europe, and will change the destinies of those regions which have long been devoted to the manufacture of munitions of war, of which they have been the most constant victims.

The solidarity in production thus established will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible.
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Over the past 70 years the European Movement has more than fulfilled that ambition.
 
  1. Substantially. Any being more supreme than Brussels, Belgium is not mentioned. If He is, do tell! Oh, wait! There is a supreme “G” in it!
    Government.
  2. Not my quote.
It will still fail, as it actively opposes God. Poland and Hungary will be the next to x. Those who have come to know the God of Israel know that he is infinitely more loving, compassionate, agreeable, merciful and He promises more than a tax bill.

Oh, and that messy Holocaust thing? Judaism is not mentioned, but for the time being is tolerated.

As it was in Germany. Of course, history never repeats.
The EU will still fail, as there is no unifying belief, custom, practice, language, ethnicity. it is economic and greed will doom it.

America you say? Glad you mentioned it. The founders were believers in at least a deist being, most the actual God of Israel. And, the foundation, the moral compass, was that which was derived from believing cultures. The founding documents were so structured as to preserve and permit freedom of religion.

Why was no state religion created - but rather prohibited? The colonists had the Church of England rammed down their throats and were good and fed up with it.
From the Pew Foundation:
“The U.S. Constitution never explicitly mentions God or the divine, but the same cannot be said of the nation’s state constitutions. In fact, God or the divine is mentioned at least once in each of the 50 state constitutions and nearly 200 times overall,”

God was implicit.

The EU will still fail, and most likely spectacularly. I will not live to see it. Print this post and watch as it yellows on the fridge door while EU tensions rise.
 
I’m starting to get the feeling that the future of the EU is much more secure than the future of the US.
 
po18guy said:
The EU will still fail, as there is no unifying belief, custom, practice,
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Perhaps there is a unifying belief. The one of the new religion of political correctness, and LGBTIQ “my way or the highway” 😔

" Protecting rights of rainbow families.…The Commission will bring forward a legislative initiative on the mutual recognition of parenthood and explore possible measures to support the mutual recognition of same-gender partnership between Member States."

 
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GKMotley said:
Surrender any portion of your national soveriegnty to a supranational organization, live with the chains that you assumed.
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By the same token, nation borders can be temporary things. While they should not be taken lightly, they need not be viewed as sacrosanct, or “forever”.
 
Servant31 said:
I’m hoping however that Britain is enough of an economic powerhouse to make trade deals that work well over time without the EU.
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Trade deals are only a small part of the trade story - you also have to have something to sell. For example, our Brexiteer Government itself accepts that the best possible deal with the USA would benefit the UK economy, very, very little (much less than 1%).
 
po18guy said:
Substantially. Any being more supreme than Brussels, Belgium is not mentioned. If He is, do tell! Oh, wait! There is a supreme “G” in it!
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That’s a bit silly, isn’t it. Neither the US nor the EU constitution is an overtly Christian document.
po18guy said:
Not my quote
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What, this?
po18guy said:
In this union, there is no unifying foundation, no seamless garment
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Was that not you quoting John?
po18guy said:
The founders were believers in at least a deist being, most the actual God of Israel
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And most of the founders of the EU were Christian Democrats.
po18guy said:
The founding documents were so structured as to preserve and permit freedom of religion.

Why was no state religion created - but rather prohibited?
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From Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights:
  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
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Isn’t it strange that only the rainbow is now crucial - yet no human society in recorded history has been established upon, or has remained stable and viable based on such licentious behavior.

But, never mind! It’s a brave new cultural experiment! In a continent in which abortion and euthanasia are becoming the norm, where else could it be headed??

The dictatorship of relativism. I remember hearing that somewhere…
 
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Your European Convention does not recognize conscientious rights of the worker in the workplace. See above article from BBC on Swedish nurses being denied jobs as midwives because they refused to perform abortions. The ECHR refused to take up their case. It seems the ECHR is as good as useless. This would never stand in the U.S. no matter the State.
 
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Monica83 said:
However, our state and local legislative rights are more liberal than the EU-liberal in that they allow each state to make more laws that promote the will of the people of that state. Each state in the U.S. can determine abortion limits and legislation as long as it is not outlawed entirely. It sounds like the EU wants to determine what whole countries can and cannot make into law if it does not fit their social agenda-abortion, LGBTQAI rights. That sounds a bit authoritarian to me.
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I can assure you that you are completely wrong. The member states of the EU are fully sovereign states. Every EU member state has its own head of state (a king, queen, grand duke, or president) and is responsible for its own defence and foreign policy; the member states maintain their own armed forces, have diplomatic relations with other countries (including other EU member states), and belong to other international organisations (such as the Commonwealth of Nations and NATO). These are the hallmarks of sovereignty.

I wonder whether you have similar concerns about the Commonwealth. Did you know, for example, that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom still exercises jurisdiction over 32 jurisdictions outside the UK including three countries which are republics and one which is ruled by its own monarch?
 
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