M
MyPhilomena
Guest
gspollet, here is another thread you may find interesting:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=113027
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=113027
- Status
M
Maria3m
Guest
This pamphlet was dropped off at my home yesterday.
The only thing that really bothered me was that the person didn’t even ring the doorbell or give it to ANY of my neighbors. Just a delivery for us.
We have a Sacred Heart of Jesus Statue on our portch…so, I guess we were chosen. I’d had decent conversations with the last few JW that came to my door, but this person didn’t want to talk.
I came back inside & immediately went to the homepage of CA to buy 10 copies of Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth. It doesn’t help that my mom is dating a JW who is constantly telling her how wrong the CC is. …and for anyone who thinks they don’t specifically target Catholics, you haven’t seen a small hardback book they read from. I can ask what the title is, but my mom’s BF (the JW) left it for me to read one certain page, but I looked through the entire book (it tells them how to answer those who call the pastors Father, anything about Mary, confessing to a priest, baptism on & on.) It actually blew my mind how th verses are taken out of context without refuting verses we use to defend our teachings.
BTW, I have to agree that after looking over the pamphlet there was nothing specific to the CC EXCEPT the pic of the priest.
The only thing that really bothered me was that the person didn’t even ring the doorbell or give it to ANY of my neighbors. Just a delivery for us.
We have a Sacred Heart of Jesus Statue on our portch…so, I guess we were chosen. I’d had decent conversations with the last few JW that came to my door, but this person didn’t want to talk.
I came back inside & immediately went to the homepage of CA to buy 10 copies of Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth. It doesn’t help that my mom is dating a JW who is constantly telling her how wrong the CC is. …and for anyone who thinks they don’t specifically target Catholics, you haven’t seen a small hardback book they read from. I can ask what the title is, but my mom’s BF (the JW) left it for me to read one certain page, but I looked through the entire book (it tells them how to answer those who call the pastors Father, anything about Mary, confessing to a priest, baptism on & on.) It actually blew my mind how th verses are taken out of context without refuting verses we use to defend our teachings.
BTW, I have to agree that after looking over the pamphlet there was nothing specific to the CC EXCEPT the pic of the priest.
I
Integritus
Guest
gspollet and other Jehovah’s Witness members:
please see this video from the link I posted below. It’s about an hour long and originally from the 1980s, but serves just as well today. It documents the history of JW, its founder - Charles Taze Russell, and his successors, JW doctrine, the changes in doctrine and revisionist history; it interviews ex-members, current JW leaders, and others.
video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=6861723185926041712
(the original setting from the link is almost in full screen on your browser. Change settings appropriately… oh, don’t forget to press the play button bottom left)
Let us know what you think after you see this video. God bless in your journey.
please see this video from the link I posted below. It’s about an hour long and originally from the 1980s, but serves just as well today. It documents the history of JW, its founder - Charles Taze Russell, and his successors, JW doctrine, the changes in doctrine and revisionist history; it interviews ex-members, current JW leaders, and others.
video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=6861723185926041712
(the original setting from the link is almost in full screen on your browser. Change settings appropriately… oh, don’t forget to press the play button bottom left)
Let us know what you think after you see this video. God bless in your journey.
J
Jaypeeto3
Guest
Our JW guest, in discussing whether or not we have an immortal soul, is simply re-hashing the Watchtower Society’s novel interpretation of the Bible texts.
I would ask, if ancient Jews REALLY DID NOT believe that we have souls, why would God have to give them allow commanding them not to try to conjure up THE DEAD ??? God did give them a law telling them not to conjure up the dead, so He knew they believed in the Soul. Nor, at his opportune time in giving this law, did Yahweh say, “for the soul itself is dead and you would be contacting a demon instead.” No, the ancient Jews, like all people, believed in an immaterial soul. They weren’t clear about where that soul WENT at death, and sometimes they tried to contact them by conjuring them up, as King Saul did with the
Witch of Endor, a woman who had a “familiar spirit.”
That story is interesting too, because the Witch of Endor was
a medium. She knew she had a familiar spirit. She knew her familiar spirit. When Samuel showed up, she screamed in terror and THAT is when she recognized that the man in her house was KING SAUL. She KNEW that was not her familiar spirit who showed up. ALL Jews to this day believe in the existence of the Soul. Many of them do not believe in Hellfire, but that is another matter entirely. My Jewish friends used to laugh at me when I, as a JW, would try to tell them what their bible meant by the word, Sheol. Sheol was NOT the common grave, there is another word for the common grave, and it is NOT Sheol. Sheol was the
ABODE of the spirits of the dead, or the “shades” as they sometimes referred to the soul as a “shade” or “shadow.”
I’m sure that our JW guest is sincere, but he has been terribly misled by a bunch of theological nincompoops in Brooklyn who haven’t the foggiest notion what the Bible really teaches and who focus on end-times Armageddon scenarios that are always just a breath away from happening.
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
I would ask, if ancient Jews REALLY DID NOT believe that we have souls, why would God have to give them allow commanding them not to try to conjure up THE DEAD ??? God did give them a law telling them not to conjure up the dead, so He knew they believed in the Soul. Nor, at his opportune time in giving this law, did Yahweh say, “for the soul itself is dead and you would be contacting a demon instead.” No, the ancient Jews, like all people, believed in an immaterial soul. They weren’t clear about where that soul WENT at death, and sometimes they tried to contact them by conjuring them up, as King Saul did with the
Witch of Endor, a woman who had a “familiar spirit.”
That story is interesting too, because the Witch of Endor was
a medium. She knew she had a familiar spirit. She knew her familiar spirit. When Samuel showed up, she screamed in terror and THAT is when she recognized that the man in her house was KING SAUL. She KNEW that was not her familiar spirit who showed up. ALL Jews to this day believe in the existence of the Soul. Many of them do not believe in Hellfire, but that is another matter entirely. My Jewish friends used to laugh at me when I, as a JW, would try to tell them what their bible meant by the word, Sheol. Sheol was NOT the common grave, there is another word for the common grave, and it is NOT Sheol. Sheol was the
ABODE of the spirits of the dead, or the “shades” as they sometimes referred to the soul as a “shade” or “shadow.”
I’m sure that our JW guest is sincere, but he has been terribly misled by a bunch of theological nincompoops in Brooklyn who haven’t the foggiest notion what the Bible really teaches and who focus on end-times Armageddon scenarios that are always just a breath away from happening.
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
D
Damascus
Guest
Looks like gspollet is gone for now.
gspollet, if you come back, could you tell me who is in charge at the WBTS?
Can you give me a list of all the Governing Body members and District overseers?
How about the Bethelites? Can you give me their rules of conduct list?
What can you tell me about Bethelites?
Can you tell me about the lives of the founder and subsequent leaders?
Is one of them buried next to a Mason Lodge with a Pyramid headstone?
How many times have you seen any of the Governing Body members at your conventions?
Do you know how many charities the WBTS are involved in?
Are they involved in any?
Do you know all of the doctrines your faith teaches? How were they decided?
Thanks!
gspollet, if you come back, could you tell me who is in charge at the WBTS?
Can you give me a list of all the Governing Body members and District overseers?
How about the Bethelites? Can you give me their rules of conduct list?
What can you tell me about Bethelites?
Can you tell me about the lives of the founder and subsequent leaders?
Is one of them buried next to a Mason Lodge with a Pyramid headstone?
How many times have you seen any of the Governing Body members at your conventions?
Do you know how many charities the WBTS are involved in?
Are they involved in any?
Do you know all of the doctrines your faith teaches? How were they decided?
Thanks!
J
John832
Guest
Thank you for this opportunity to respond to this subject.
Far from being obscure or ambiguous the Bible is quite clear that man IS a soul. (Genesis 2:7 Catholic Douay Version)
As I Corinthians 15: 45 states: “The first man, Adam, as scripture says, became a living soul” (Catholic Jerusalem Bible). Nowhere do the scripture state that man possesses an immortal soul.
It follows then, at death, men become dead souls, in agreement with the Bible’s divine statement at Ezekiel 18:4: “The soul that is sinning – **IT ITSELF **will die”.
At Romans 6:23 the apostle Paul confirms that “the wages of sin is death” – not punishment in Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire or anywhere else.
Is it conceivable to you that a loving God would punish people, even young babies, in fire forever? Would that be just? We are told in Scripture that “God is love” (I John 4:8), and that with Him “there is no injustice” (Deut 32:4; Romans 9:14). Would you put the hand of your child, even for a moment, in a fire for some demeanour – however grave?
Quite simply, the Bible teaches that DEATH – the opposite of life – and not eternal torment, is the penalty for sin. And rather than experience any painful punishment in some kind of afterlife, the Bible teaches us that “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 Jerusalem Bible). Also that those in God’s memory await a physical resurrection to life here again on earth. Yes, as Jesus said: “The meek shall inherit the earth”. (Matthew 5:5)
The resurrection does not require God to bring back ‘departed souls’ from any afterlife location (Limbo, Purgatory, or anywhere else) because such places do not exist. Do you know where in the Bible there is mention of any of these places?
As to the origin of the immortal soul doctrine notice what the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and **St. Augustine **[died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.
Here the Catholic Church admits that the teaching of ‘a spiritual soul … infused into the body at conception’ is NOT Bible teaching, or taught by Christ, but was incorporated into Church dogma in the third and fourth centuries AFTER Christ.
The Babylonish teaching of the immortality of the soul is NOT Bible teaching, but originates from pagan ideas, and subsequently incorporated into Christendom’s doctrines.
The Bible is quite clear that Jesus and his government of 144,000 king/priests (The Kingdom we pray for in the ‘Our Father’) will soon rule from heaven over the earth until it is brought back to the condition God originally intended for mankind. (Revelation 5:10; 14:1; 20;6).
People the world over have therefore a short time remaining to learn about God’s will, to act upon it and put themselves in line to live in the same paradise earth Jesus promised to one of “the criminals” who died at his side. (Luke 23: 39-43). The same paradise earth Adam could have continued to live in had he remained obedient to God.
From their Bible study Jehovah’s Witnesses know that once the “good news of the Kingdom” has been preached worldwide to God’s satisfaction “the end will come”. As world events fulfill Bible prophecy, Jehovah’s Witnesses are convinced that this end is VERY near. (Matthew 24:14, 36) Of course only God knows the day and the hour.
Regarding the comment that Grant (in an earlier response) was using “obscure Old Testament passages”. It is worth asking: Which Scriptures did Jesus quote from when on earth but “Old Testament passages”? Which Scriptures did his apostles use?
The only scriptures available up until then were the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament). Nowhere did Jesus say that future scripture (the New Testament) would replace the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament), instead he spent his whole ministry using earlier scripture and explaining them, showing that “ALL scripture is inspired of God” and is in total agreement from Genesis to Revelation. (Luke 24: 25-27; 2 Tim 3:16)
Through the worldwide campaign engaged in at the moment by Jehovah’s Witnesses, people of ALL nations are being urged to study God’s Word the Bible and through such study to ‘know the truth’ as they believe ‘the TRUTH will set you free’. (John 8:32)
If you love truth, you have nothing to fear from such a study of the Bible.
Once again, I respectfully thank you for this opportunity,
Tony
Far from being obscure or ambiguous the Bible is quite clear that man IS a soul. (Genesis 2:7 Catholic Douay Version)
As I Corinthians 15: 45 states: “The first man, Adam, as scripture says, became a living soul” (Catholic Jerusalem Bible). Nowhere do the scripture state that man possesses an immortal soul.
It follows then, at death, men become dead souls, in agreement with the Bible’s divine statement at Ezekiel 18:4: “The soul that is sinning – **IT ITSELF **will die”.
At Romans 6:23 the apostle Paul confirms that “the wages of sin is death” – not punishment in Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire or anywhere else.
Is it conceivable to you that a loving God would punish people, even young babies, in fire forever? Would that be just? We are told in Scripture that “God is love” (I John 4:8), and that with Him “there is no injustice” (Deut 32:4; Romans 9:14). Would you put the hand of your child, even for a moment, in a fire for some demeanour – however grave?
Quite simply, the Bible teaches that DEATH – the opposite of life – and not eternal torment, is the penalty for sin. And rather than experience any painful punishment in some kind of afterlife, the Bible teaches us that “the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 Jerusalem Bible). Also that those in God’s memory await a physical resurrection to life here again on earth. Yes, as Jesus said: “The meek shall inherit the earth”. (Matthew 5:5)
The resurrection does not require God to bring back ‘departed souls’ from any afterlife location (Limbo, Purgatory, or anywhere else) because such places do not exist. Do you know where in the Bible there is mention of any of these places?
As to the origin of the immortal soul doctrine notice what the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and **St. Augustine **[died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.
Here the Catholic Church admits that the teaching of ‘a spiritual soul … infused into the body at conception’ is NOT Bible teaching, or taught by Christ, but was incorporated into Church dogma in the third and fourth centuries AFTER Christ.
The Babylonish teaching of the immortality of the soul is NOT Bible teaching, but originates from pagan ideas, and subsequently incorporated into Christendom’s doctrines.
The Bible is quite clear that Jesus and his government of 144,000 king/priests (The Kingdom we pray for in the ‘Our Father’) will soon rule from heaven over the earth until it is brought back to the condition God originally intended for mankind. (Revelation 5:10; 14:1; 20;6).
People the world over have therefore a short time remaining to learn about God’s will, to act upon it and put themselves in line to live in the same paradise earth Jesus promised to one of “the criminals” who died at his side. (Luke 23: 39-43). The same paradise earth Adam could have continued to live in had he remained obedient to God.
From their Bible study Jehovah’s Witnesses know that once the “good news of the Kingdom” has been preached worldwide to God’s satisfaction “the end will come”. As world events fulfill Bible prophecy, Jehovah’s Witnesses are convinced that this end is VERY near. (Matthew 24:14, 36) Of course only God knows the day and the hour.
Regarding the comment that Grant (in an earlier response) was using “obscure Old Testament passages”. It is worth asking: Which Scriptures did Jesus quote from when on earth but “Old Testament passages”? Which Scriptures did his apostles use?
The only scriptures available up until then were the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament). Nowhere did Jesus say that future scripture (the New Testament) would replace the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament), instead he spent his whole ministry using earlier scripture and explaining them, showing that “ALL scripture is inspired of God” and is in total agreement from Genesis to Revelation. (Luke 24: 25-27; 2 Tim 3:16)
Through the worldwide campaign engaged in at the moment by Jehovah’s Witnesses, people of ALL nations are being urged to study God’s Word the Bible and through such study to ‘know the truth’ as they believe ‘the TRUTH will set you free’. (John 8:32)
If you love truth, you have nothing to fear from such a study of the Bible.
Once again, I respectfully thank you for this opportunity,
Tony
D
Damascus
Guest
#85 Please.
D
Damascus
Guest
John 832,
In all of those bible verses you provided could you ONLY use Cannonical ones?
Prove they are cannonical using ONLY Scripture please.
Thank you!
In all of those bible verses you provided could you ONLY use Cannonical ones?
Prove they are cannonical using ONLY Scripture please.
Thank you!
J
John832
Guest
Thank you for your reply.
All of the scriptural quotations can be found in any Catholic bible. Can you find them in yours?
Again, can you point me to ANY Scripture which mentions Limbo or Purgatory (even the Church after centuries of assigning ones to Limbo is having a rethink on this)
As the apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 Jerusalem Bible, but to “be a good teacher”. This of course requires one to know the Scriptures and be able to have “your answer ready” 1 Peter 3:15 (Jerusalem Bible) based on scripture.
That said, if you can prove to me that Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, or any similar doctrines are taught in the 66 books making up Holy Scripture I will come back to the Catholic Church.
Once again,
Thank you,
Tony
All of the scriptural quotations can be found in any Catholic bible. Can you find them in yours?
Again, can you point me to ANY Scripture which mentions Limbo or Purgatory (even the Church after centuries of assigning ones to Limbo is having a rethink on this)
As the apostle Paul said: “a slave of God is not to engage in quarrels” 2 Timothy 2:24 Jerusalem Bible, but to “be a good teacher”. This of course requires one to know the Scriptures and be able to have “your answer ready” 1 Peter 3:15 (Jerusalem Bible) based on scripture.
That said, if you can prove to me that Limbo, Purgatory, Hellfire and the teaching of the immortality of the soul, or any similar doctrines are taught in the 66 books making up Holy Scripture I will come back to the Catholic Church.
Once again,
Thank you,
Tony
V
Valke2
Guest
.
Hi. It is not true that Jews do not or did not believe in an afterlife. They certainly did. However, there is not a lot of dogma on this issue, so exactly what Jews believe the afterlife entails, can differ. Some Jews, including some Orthodox, believe the soul goes to heaven (as most christians would define it). Some believe in reincarnation. And some say we just stay in a holding pattern until the Messiah comes.
If you read through the Torah, you will find examples where it states that the righteous will be united with their families after death. Whenever you see the phrase “gathered to their people”, it’s a buzz phrase for afterlife. As set forth in the Judaism 101 website, this occurs in Gen. 25:8 (for Abraham); 25:17 (for Ishmael); 35:29 (for Isaac); 49:33 for Jacob; Deut. 32:50 (for MOses and Aaron). See also II Kings 22:20 for King Josiah.
The gathering to their people is a seperate event, described after the deaths.
Additionally, Jews have always believed in “kareit” for certain evil acts. The buzz phrase for this is “cut off from his people” and means that the soul loses its share in the world to come.
Also, more detail about the hearafter can be found in the book of Daniel.
V
Valke2
Guest
The Talmud weighs in: “This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall.” Similarly, the Talmud says, “This world is like the eve of Shabbat, and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat.” We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and good deeds. "
Olam Ha-Ba is the World to Come.
Olam Ha-Ba is the World to Come.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Im not sure how JWs define “Armageddon” because I have seen different interpretations from various Protestants I dont know if there is even a general concensus. In general Catholics believe in the wars and other bad stuff that is supposed to occur, but overall we maintain the reality that nobody knows when, its the “theif in the night” situation.
The fact is there is explicit teaching of afterlife in the NT and failure to recognize this means you have missed an important concept of the Gospel. The various degrees to which the OT talks about an afterlife doesnt overturn the fact the NT is very vocal about it. As for “the Jews never believed in an afterlife”, thats a pretty broad brush, what about people like Enoch (Gn 5:24), Elijah (2Kg 2:11)? Also places like Heb11:13-16 where it says many of the good OT people had their sights set on the afterlife rather than temporary earlthy life.
And speaking of Lazarus, the Luke 16:22-25 story is explicitly clear of an afterlife. The Jn11 story which your talking about doesnt help your case at all for Martha certainly did believe in an afterlife to say “I know he will rise on the last day”. The situation was in regards to the near future physical resurrection of Lazarus which Jesus used as a stepping stone to reveal more about His mission: 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;** 26 **and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world.” (Jn11, NWT)
While Jesus had in mind in v23 the miraculous physical resurrection, which Martha didnt understand, He goes onto explain the eternal nature of life after physical death.
(cont in next post)
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
(cont)
Certainly you dont believe God made humans because He was human? The only answer for “in his image” is a living soul/spirit which is what Catholics believe. This in no way conflicts with what you provided above for Gn 2:7-And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. Notice its the “breath of life” which is the key factor here, dust (physical matter) cant produce life, life is a supernatural phenomenon, in our case the ability to think, love, believe, etc isnt due to the dust we are made of but the “in his image” spirit He made and gave us.
As for when hell was created, well clearly the devil tempted them so the devil came first, other important passages: “the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Mt25:41), “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”(Jude 1:6). Here is another important point to consider, the angels are not made out of “dust” yet they exist as spirits and evil humans will suffer the same fate as them (eg “everlasting fire”). Clearly this isnt in reference to physical death.
Catholics believe in the Final Judgement when the souls/spirits of all men will reunite with their bodies, that is what I would consider the “heavenly” resurrection. The earthly resurrection I would consider miraculous resurrections like with Lazarus.
p.s. what are your thoughts concerning the last two verses I gave you in post 72?
Here is an interesting question for you, here is what God said:And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness … And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.(Gn1:26, 27)
Certainly you dont believe God made humans because He was human? The only answer for “in his image” is a living soul/spirit which is what Catholics believe. This in no way conflicts with what you provided above for Gn 2:7-And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. Notice its the “breath of life” which is the key factor here, dust (physical matter) cant produce life, life is a supernatural phenomenon, in our case the ability to think, love, believe, etc isnt due to the dust we are made of but the “in his image” spirit He made and gave us.
When Adam sinned he didnt die that instant, infact God allowed him to live hundreds of years. There is no idication Adam went to hell, infact the passage Gn 2:17-19 is clearly only dealing with the physical pains/punishments. However it goes onto 2:22-24 talks about the spiritual matters.
As for when hell was created, well clearly the devil tempted them so the devil came first, other important passages: “the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels” (Mt25:41), “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”(Jude 1:6). Here is another important point to consider, the angels are not made out of “dust” yet they exist as spirits and evil humans will suffer the same fate as them (eg “everlasting fire”). Clearly this isnt in reference to physical death.
Im not sure what your saying here, what is the difference between earthly and heavenly resurrection? And what is the big deal about “unrighteous” vs. “wicked”.
Catholics believe in the Final Judgement when the souls/spirits of all men will reunite with their bodies, that is what I would consider the “heavenly” resurrection. The earthly resurrection I would consider miraculous resurrections like with Lazarus.
Well Im also talking about the fact there are terms like “spirit” and “soul” used in the Bible but how you eliminate the idea of an immortal soul I have yet to see proved. As for the “immaterial”, that is very interesting you would mention this, clearly “dust” is material yet this “dust” doesnt give life, something immaterial is what gives life to the “dust”.
p.s. what are your thoughts concerning the last two verses I gave you in post 72?
D
Damascus
Guest
Thank you. You answered my question with another question and no answer.
Corintians is where you will find purgatory.
I am still waiting for a response to my first post.
You understand of course that you can not cite what Scripture is canonical from Scripture. THere is no list of cannon to be found in Scripture. So I dont see how you can determine what is and what is not Scripture. I have your bible and cant find it in there either.
V
Valke2
Guest
Ok. Now that I’ve got warmed up…
I didn’t address the soul. We have one. At least we believe we have one.
There are three aspects of the soul in Judaism – Nefesh, Ruach, and Neshama
Nefesh is the aspect that sustains life. The body can’t life without the soul. If someone tells a religous person, that the body is a mass of muscle, electro chemicales, neurons etc., the religious person is apt to answer, “but that’s not all it is.” What is left out of the equation is Nefesh.
Ruach (“wind/spirit”), is the passions of the soul that drive the individual. It is the reason that no matter what our circumstances, we always have the ability to choose good over evil.
Neshma, is what you would consider the more mystical/transcendant aspect of the soul. It oversees the other two aspects.
That’s the first three levels. The mystics add another two. BUt you get the idea.
When we die, Judaism teachs that various things happen to the soul. This is not a thing I’ve been overly familar with, but basically, the soul needs to be purified, and it (or at least the Ruach portion) goes through “purgatory” for about 11 months. Neshma goes directly to heaven. The soul is eventually complete again when all three (or five) aspects are reunited. (and it feels so good).
Like all discussions about something ineffable and divine, a lot is lost in translation.
I didn’t address the soul. We have one. At least we believe we have one.
There are three aspects of the soul in Judaism – Nefesh, Ruach, and Neshama
Nefesh is the aspect that sustains life. The body can’t life without the soul. If someone tells a religous person, that the body is a mass of muscle, electro chemicales, neurons etc., the religious person is apt to answer, “but that’s not all it is.” What is left out of the equation is Nefesh.
Ruach (“wind/spirit”), is the passions of the soul that drive the individual. It is the reason that no matter what our circumstances, we always have the ability to choose good over evil.
Neshma, is what you would consider the more mystical/transcendant aspect of the soul. It oversees the other two aspects.
That’s the first three levels. The mystics add another two. BUt you get the idea.
When we die, Judaism teachs that various things happen to the soul. This is not a thing I’ve been overly familar with, but basically, the soul needs to be purified, and it (or at least the Ruach portion) goes through “purgatory” for about 11 months. Neshma goes directly to heaven. The soul is eventually complete again when all three (or five) aspects are reunited. (and it feels so good).
Like all discussions about something ineffable and divine, a lot is lost in translation.
J
John832
Guest
Hello and thank you once again.
Forgive me for not using your name as you have not provided it.
Are you disputing that the scriptural references I use are canonical? I believe that ALL 66 books of Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation are canonical and accepted by all true Christians. Do you have a problem with that?
Do not ALL Catholics accept these same writings as canonical?
The Catholic Church does not determine what is and what is not canonical - only Jehovah God has inspired the scriptures and has protected them through the centuries for our use and education now. (In spite of the Catholic Church’s attempts to stop their use and persecution of ones who tried to print and produce Bibles in the common tongue in the Middle Ages)
Where in the letters to the Corinthians is Purgatory mentioned - exact reference please - just as I have provided you in my responses.
Please be more specific,
Thank you,
Tony
Forgive me for not using your name as you have not provided it.
Are you disputing that the scriptural references I use are canonical? I believe that ALL 66 books of Holy Scripture from Genesis to Revelation are canonical and accepted by all true Christians. Do you have a problem with that?
Do not ALL Catholics accept these same writings as canonical?
The Catholic Church does not determine what is and what is not canonical - only Jehovah God has inspired the scriptures and has protected them through the centuries for our use and education now. (In spite of the Catholic Church’s attempts to stop their use and persecution of ones who tried to print and produce Bibles in the common tongue in the Middle Ages)
Where in the letters to the Corinthians is Purgatory mentioned - exact reference please - just as I have provided you in my responses.
Please be more specific,
Thank you,
Tony
D
Denise_Shae
Guest
Hi Valke,Ok. Now that I’ve got warmed up…
I didn’t address the soul. We have one. At least we believe we have one.
There are three aspects of the soul in Judaism – Nefesh, Ruach, and Neshama
Nefesh is the aspect that sustains life. The body can’t life without the soul. If someone tells a religous person, that the body is a mass of muscle, electro chemicales, neurons etc., the religious person is apt to answer, “but that’s not all it is.” What is left out of the equation is Nefesh.
Ruach (“wind/spirit”), is the passions of the soul that drive the individual. It is the reason that no matter what our circumstances, we always have the ability to choose good over evil.
Neshma, is what you would consider the more mystical/transcendant aspect of the soul. It oversees the other two aspects.
That’s the first three levels. The mystics add another two. BUt you get the idea.
When we die, Judaism teachs that various things happen to the soul. This is not a thing I’ve been overly familar with, but basically, the soul needs to be purified, and it (or at least the Ruach portion) goes through “purgatory” for about 11 months. Neshma goes directly to heaven. The soul is eventually complete again when all three (or five) aspects are reunited. (and it feels so good).
Like all discussions about something ineffable and divine, a lot is lost in translation.
Thanks so much for posting Judaic teachings on the soul and the afterlife.
I’ve been wanting to ask my cousin about it for a long time, but he usually doesn’t discuss religion, and I don’t want to pressure him.
In that case, I can’t wait to see how much more info. you post when you’re revved up!Now that I’ve got warmed up…
Peace!
Denise
J
Jaypeeto3
Guest
I hate to burst your JW bubble,
but the solid facts of history cannot be refuted.
It was the Catholic Church which, out of dozens and dozens
of books & letters all claiming to be “inspired”, declared at the COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON that only the 27 books we use today as the New Testament, are inspired.
Anyone who denies that is either an ignorant fool or a liar.
And the Catholic Church never punished people merely for wanting to translate scripture into the common tongue. That is a dastardly lie. The church only forbade translations of the bible made by HERETICS.
Also, Europe was largely an agrarian civilization and most people could not read and did not have the time to LEARN to read either. The few who could read, ALL could read LATIN, and the Bible was freely available always in Latin. And it was read to the congregations at every single Sunday service.
Your JW leaders, the so-called Governing Body in Brooklyn, know-nothing nincompoops to a man,
are spreading wicked lies about the Church of Jesus Christ.
but the solid facts of history cannot be refuted.
It was the Catholic Church which, out of dozens and dozens
of books & letters all claiming to be “inspired”, declared at the COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON that only the 27 books we use today as the New Testament, are inspired.
Anyone who denies that is either an ignorant fool or a liar.
And the Catholic Church never punished people merely for wanting to translate scripture into the common tongue. That is a dastardly lie. The church only forbade translations of the bible made by HERETICS.
Also, Europe was largely an agrarian civilization and most people could not read and did not have the time to LEARN to read either. The few who could read, ALL could read LATIN, and the Bible was freely available always in Latin. And it was read to the congregations at every single Sunday service.
Your JW leaders, the so-called Governing Body in Brooklyn, know-nothing nincompoops to a man,
are spreading wicked lies about the Church of Jesus Christ.
T
Turtullian
Guest
This begs the question, By what Authority do you have a 66 Book canon. There books as late as the second century that were questionable. (hebrews, Revelation, and the Epistles of Peter.) The Bible did not fall out of the sky. It had to to be codified under the context of what was to be read as part of the liturgy. It was decided only canonical books were to be read as part of the liturgy. The four great councils on the canon decided and accepted the 73 book canon. (Carthage, Rome Laodicea, and the Quintsext Councils of Nicea II)
We do so becuase the Church has declared them to be canonical. If the Church did not, I would not believe them to paraphrase St. Augustine. The Church using the donation of faith has deemed all the 73 books of the Bi9ble to be scripture becuase she has the ability to discern such things.
Begging the question yet again? Show me from scripture a list of books that decalre an OT canon and NT canon. If you can’t, then there must be a body that has determined through the donation of faith to discern what is canonical and what is not. If you take a look at the history of the canon process, this arguement becomes more apparent.
False, Not only were bibles written in the Lingua Franca of the Church, many translations into the vernacular were made. Not only that but the Eastern Churches themselves had Bibles written in not only Latin, but Greek, Syriac, Aramaic, and Arabic. To say the Church did not allow vernacular translations is a false charge.
D
Damascus
Guest
Thank you also. I thank you in spite of the fact you have not answered my questions. I have hope though.
You can call me Damascus, and if you want to make an issue of names, can you tell me how you got permission to be on this site by the WBTS?
It is my understanding you are not to be here according to a local elder in my city who offered that excuse to me when I invited him to join this site.
You must be a higher up, or disobedient to your faith.
I am asking you to provide Scripture to support that they are. You can not do that.
Yes, and tone down the anger. I have a problem with that since you tell me that you can support all your positions in Scripture. So far, you have not.
Remind me again how all true Christians use those limited number of books.
Sorry, you stated I am not a true Christian, so why ask me?
Then somewhere Jehovah told you what is and is not cannonical someway?
How did he do that?
This we agree on. He has protected them. Unfortunately, heretics and schismatics have butchered the Bible. Thanks be to God, that they are intact in the true Church.
)
Any citations to prove this will be looked at and carefully evaluated thank you for your help.
You provided me with nothing. If you dont like Purgatory, dont believe it. Some will have to see to believe.
You are welcome. Kindly reply to post *85, thank you.
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