THE EUCHARIST - How can anyone claim to “believe” in Jesus, if they deny what He taught and will not follow what He said?

[nsper7]

One key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim the “water” is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood,” martyrdom for Christ, or through “baptism of desire”, that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Your problem is that you equate Sacraments with works-- they are not. They are God’s unmerited gifts of Grace to us.

As an Anglican, I believe the Sacraments are extremely important to one’s faith. As a believer in Free Grace theology, I believe that Salvation (justification) is attained by faith alone in Christ alone. Although I do not believe the Sacraments are necessary for Salvation, I believe they are a tried-and-true channel of God’s grace that extends all the way back to the Early Church.

 

[MrS]

I don’t agree that the water symbolises the word of God at all. I believe that the water is talking of our first natural birth, and the spirit is the second spiritual re-birth.

I believe that baptism is an outward manifestation on an inward change, and also the first step in obedience towards our new lives in Christ. I also believe (and felt) God gives spiritual gifts at baptism such as speaking in tongues and whatever it is we need to serve Him. I don’t believe it’s water to just cleanse us from dirt, it’s a symbol and that’s what that scripture is referring to.

Baptism doesn’t cleanse us from sin, only the blood of Christ does that when we repent and trust in Him by faith.

so did Nicodemus… and the Lord corrected and instructed him.

.

 

[ckempston]

Notice how it is talking about those who have “tasted” salvation by the holy spirit, saved people… saved by grace… who then turn away from the faith or go back to following laws of the flesh for salvation. They are a disgrace because they rejected the truth.

It has nothing to do with how we are justified before God.

Galatians 5 says the same thing… you who follow the law, fall from grace.

Now I’ll repeat…, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved for these reasons (unforgiveness can send you to hell as well as denying Jesus) but I do believe we are saved by faith, not by anything we do. (that includes baptism and sacraments!)

We ARE called to obey Christ… that is part of being a Christian but it’s santification NOT salvation. Salvation is a once off event that comes after repentance and trust in the saviour.

We are then expected to obey Christ and if we don’t we leave ourselves open to punishment on EARTH but not in eternity.

You are sadly mistaken. Salvation is past, present, and future. You can see this simply from the tenses in which the verb is used in the New Testament. If Salvation was a one time thing, why would we be told to work it out with fear and trembling? Why would any Apostles reference being saved in the future tense? That totally contradicts what you are saying here.

Repentance includes following God’s plan for salvation, not making up your own, as you have done.

Explain this punishment on earth, and provide chapter and verse where Jesus or the Apostles taught this.

 

[ckempston]

I don’t agree that the water symbolises the word of God at all. I believe that the water is talking of our first natural birth, and the spirit is the second spiritual re-birth.

I believe that baptism is an outward manifestation on an inward change, and also the first step in obedience towards our new lives in Christ. I also believe (and felt) God gives spiritual gifts at baptism such as speaking in tongues and whatever it is we need to serve Him. I don’t believe it’s water to just cleanse us from dirt, it’s a symbol and that’s what that scripture is referring to.

Baptism doesn’t cleanse us from sin, only the blood of Christ does that when we repent and trust in Him by faith.

Too bad there are several plain passages of scripture that contradict your last statement directly. The blood of Christ certainly cleanses us…through Baptism:
*
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,*

I don’t know how God could make this any more blatantly obvious to his people.

 

[cazayoux]

I believe that the water is talking of our first natural birth, and the spirit is the second spiritual re-birth.

What, then, do you make of this?

Acts 8
[36] And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?”

michel

 

[po18guy]

I don’t agree that the water symbolises the word of God at all. I believe that the water is talking of our first natural birth, and the spirit is the second spiritual re-birth.

I believe that baptism is an outward manifestation on an inward change, and also the first step in obedience towards our new lives in Christ. I also believe (and felt) God gives spiritual gifts at baptism such as speaking in tongues and whatever it is we need to serve Him. I don’t believe it’s water to just cleanse us from dirt, it’s a symbol and that’s what that scripture is referring to.

Baptism doesn’t cleanse us from sin, only the blood of Christ does that when we repent and trust in Him by faith.

I must point out:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Forgiveness of original and personal sins! Baptism renders you purer than the day of your birth. Your slate is clean.

And:

Acts 8:15-17 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

First, baptism in water for the forgiveness of sin, then the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation.

And:

1 Peter 3:21-22 “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.”

Thus, its saving power is not physical, rather it is a spiritual gift of God. Baptism itself has power, not symbolic power, but the actual power to cleanse your soul and save you.

The concept of being “born of water” via the amniotic fluid is a very new concept, not seen before in all of Christian history, and exactly the opposite of that which Christ Himself spoke to Nicodemus. Careful here!

But, we digress. This is about the Bread of Life. The argument rages…

 

[inchrist101]

Another stupid post from the self-proclaimed apologist Jimmy B.

 

[ckempston]

Another stupid post from the self-proclaimed apologist Jimmy B.

Wow, what a gracious, loving, charitable comment.

 

[MrS]

Another stupid post from the self-proclaimed apologist Jimmy B.

To be an apologist is simply the desire to study, explain, share and defend the faith.

What do they teach “christians” on the east coast?

.

 

[po18guy]

Another stupid post from the self-proclaimed apologist Jimmy B.

Jimmy loves to debate the truth. Bring it!

 

[MrS]

Jimmy loves to debate the truth. Bring it!

He, and others actually love to debate with the Truth as full partner. A big plus being a Catholic.

so, yeah,

Bring it!!

 

[po18guy]

He, and others actually love to debate with the Truth as full partner. A big plus being a Catholic.

so, yeah,

Bring it!!

Once again, it is confidence you see, not arrogance. Arrogance is a 5 (or 50, 0r 500) year old church that comes here and wants to “correct” the mother church about doctrine. What chutzpah!

Like I said, you all know where we are. Let’s get ready to rumble! (in a brotherly way, that is)

Amen! Alleluia!

 

[SIA]

Hello SIA,

Yes, the order of the Mass, the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, the Bible verses and other quotes that I provided and linked here, are all true, do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Thank you for your post, God bless you.

Just one little thing Jimmy. Show me in Scripture where the body and blood of Christ only exists through what you call transubstantiation. Also too Jimmy, can you please explain why Jesus is wrong when he says that the bread which comes from Heaven is his flesh. Doesn’t transubstantiation say that the bread no longer exists when it becomes flesh? Explain all those things for us if you would please.

 

[po18guy]

On judgment day… maybe… but sinning in this life won’t send you to hell. (there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) Saved means what it says it means, past tense. Being saved by grace is not running to the priest every week to confess sins in case you end up condemned. That’s hardly the behaviour of a person who knows they are saved.

What happened to Judas? He was “saved”. He had power to cast out demons and heal. Yet, it would have been better for him had he never been born. That is not OSAS, those are tHe words of Christ. No penalty for sin in this life? Think about it. Might as well go on a murderous rampage every day, since there’s no price for sin. That is not biblical.

 

[vocatio]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254563

 

[Jimmy_B]

Just one little thing Jimmy. Show me in Scripture where the body and blood of Christ only exists through what you call transubstantiation. Also too Jimmy, can you please explain why Jesus is wrong when he says that the bread which comes from Heaven is his flesh. Doesn’t transubstantiation say that the bread no longer exists when it becomes flesh? Explain all those things for us if you would please.

Hello SIA,

So, I take it that you believe that the Bible is in conflict, where one verse, conflicts with another, am I right, is this what you believe?

Please answer this question first and then I will tackle your questions, which will take more than a sentence or two explain.

Thank you.

Peace

 

[nsper7]

What happened to Judas? He was “saved”. He had power to cast out demons and heal. Yet, it would have been better for him had he never been born. That is not OSAS, those are tHe words of Christ. No penalty for sin in this life? Think about it. Might as well go on a murderous rampage every day, since there’s no price for sin. That is not biblical.

Scripture never says Judas was Saved. All it says was that he was a disciple. Free Grace theologians would agree that Discipleship is not the same as Salvation and one could be disciple without believing in Christ for Salvation. One could do ‘miraculous works’ without believing in Christ for Salvation (Matthew 7:21-22, John 6:29).

 

[JRKH]

Just one little thing Jimmy. Show me in Scripture where the body and blood of Christ only exists through what you call transubstantiation. Also too Jimmy, can you please explain why Jesus is wrong when he says that the bread which comes from Heaven is his flesh. Doesn’t transubstantiation say that the bread no longer exists when it becomes flesh? Explain all those things for us if you would please.

Now this is what I call real “Scribe and Pharasee” style debate.
The Church has always held that Christ is truly Present and that the Bread and Wine ARE Christ in Flesh and Blood. Of couse because, to us poor humans, they still taste like bread and wine, dissenters through the centuries wanted to know HOW could it be flesh and blood.
Finally the Church provides an explanation called “Transubstantiation”. Of course trying to explain such a tremendous and Loving Gift as this in human terms is nearly impossible, yet the Holy Spirit, through the Church provides an explanation.
So now what happens? The explanation is attacked. Now the dissenters want explanations of the explanation. It just never ends.
If a person believes the Bible is the Word of God and Believes in Jesus Christ, His teaching, His mission and His sacrifice, then Why, of all the Gifts and Miracles that God has given us, Why do people deny the Real presence?

Peace
James

 

[MrS]

If a person believes the Bible is the Word of God and Believes in Jesus Christ, His teaching, His mission and His sacrifice, then Why, of all the Gifts and Miracles that God has given us, Why do people deny the Real presence?

Peace
James

Perhaps because our separated brethren have become comfortable, through their faith communities, with a less “intrusive” presence of Christ.

There is more emphasis on what they can do (fellowship mainly) than on what God IS doing.

I think there is no greater personal relationship with Jesus, that a reception of Him in the Eucharist.

.

 

[po18guy]

Just one little thing Jimmy. Show me in Scripture where the body and blood of Christ only exists through what you call transubstantiation. Also too Jimmy, can you please explain why Jesus is wrong when he says that the bread which comes from Heaven is his flesh. Doesn’t transubstantiation say that the bread no longer exists when it becomes flesh? Explain all those things for us if you would please.

This was settled 2,000 years ago! Why so contentious? Why so much difficulty accepting Christ in His fulness? The apostles did, and every generation since.

You appear to be satisfied with the sacred “cliff notes” of the life of Christ. There’s more to Him. Much more. But, belief begins when you drop the 'tude.