The Fear of Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_III
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Peregrinans said:
I think of it like this: Say you are a Judge and you have a child. As that child grows you are loving, kind, forgiving and teach that child right from wrong. You do everything you can to help that child lead a healthy, moral and responsible life, but inspite of your best efforts they rebel. They lie, and you forgive them, they cheat, and you forgive them, they continue on in life committing worse and worse crimes. They even turn their back on you, cutting off all ties. They have nothing but disdain for you. Finally they are a fully fledged adult and they are a thief, a rapist and a murderer. They are brought to your courtroom and it is found that they are unquestionable guilty of all charges. You are their judge and you still love them. What do you do? And whose fault is it that your child is in this situation, yours or theirs?
Click to expand...
Fine example except for one thing: You did not have omniscient and infallible knowledge of future events when you created that child. The Christian God did.
 
padrepio_2012 said:
Whenever someone asks this overused and recycled question “If God is loving why would he send people to hell?” or assert that they dont believe in a hell because an all loving God would never send people there, i always answer with this: What if i *wanted *to go to hell? If i wanted to go to hell but God was too loving to send me there or did not create one because he was too “just”, then he would be unjust, because i want to go (not that i actually want to) but the point is made. So ergo, there is a hell or at least the possibility for one becomes open.
Click to expand...
Does anyone really want to go to hell? I doubt it.

What some people do want, however, is to get as far away from God as possible.

So hell is getting as far away from God as possible … forever.

It just might be that hell is really nothing more than the grinding recognition of the stupidity of choosing to get as far away from God as possible.
 
oldcelt said:
Fine example except for one thing: You did not have omniscient and infallible knowledge of future events when you created that child. The Christian God did.
Click to expand...
When the judge created that child, he knew that the child could go either way, and that it was outside his power, given the free will of the child, to control which way the child went. The same with God. Love must be freely given. If it is not, that is hell, but the only person that can withhold it is the child. God gives us the freedom to choose heaven or hell. But since the atheist does not believe in God, he may at least believe in the power of nature to give us choices. Nature does give us choices, and the choices she gives us are to have our heaven or our hell on earth.
 
oldcelt said:
. . . You did not have omniscient and infallible knowledge of future events when you created that child. The Christian God did.
Click to expand...
Your tenses are all off.
God has infallible knowledge.
At no point can it be said that God did have omniscient and infallible knowledge.
There exists no future, no past for God.
What you freely choose now, He knows.
What you chose and what you will choose are events that happen in their moment.
God is at the Centre of all moments.
He exists in all time and knows all in His eternal Now.
There was no time before Him. There is no time after Him.
He knows you totally right now, for all eternity - all your choices, all your circumstances, everything that goes into every decision, as you make yourself into the person you are.
He has infinite compassion as you do the choosing.
Although you exist outside of time, in time, before you came into existence, there was no you to know. Before you choose, there is no predestined you.
He knows you in every moment of your existence.
I think this is the stumbling block you have that interferes with your understanding of Christianity - the matter of free-will in the context of God’s infinite and eternal nature.
The fact is that it can only be overcome within one’s relationship with Him.
You cannot know God outside of a relationship with Him.
What is holding you back?
 
Aloysium said:
Your tenses are all off.
God has infallible knowledge.
At no point can it be said that God did have omniscient and infallible knowledge.
There exists no future, no past for God.
What you freely choose now, He knows.
What you chose and what you will choose are events that happen in their moment.
God is at the Centre of all moments.
He exists in all time and knows all in His eternal Now.
There was no time before Him. There is no time after Him.
He knows you totally right now, for all eternity - all your choices, all your circumstances, everything that goes into every decision, as you make yourself into the person you are.
He has infinite compassion as you do the choosing.
Although you exist outside of time, in time, before you came into existence, there was no you to know. Before you choose, there is no predestined you.
He knows you in every moment of your existence.
I think this is the stumbling block you have that interferes with your understanding of Christianity - the matter of free-will in the context of God’s infinite and eternal nature.
The fact is that it can only be overcome within one’s relationship with Him.
You cannot know God outside of a relationship with Him.
What is holding you back?
Click to expand...
My tense is absolutely correct. Whether you wish to admit it or not, even in eternity there has to be a beginning for our world. A moment when your God willed it into existence. If there is no such point…then your God cannot exist. The Catholic God knew with absolute certainty all future events when he created, with infallible foreknowledge he preordained all future events.That is Catholic Dogma that I have posted repeatedly.
Free will cannot exist under such a system, and all the Church offers is that it is a mystery.
Free will does exist…therefore nothing is foreknown or foreordained…therefore, the Catholic notion of God cannot exist.
We are on our own…thankfully.
 
oldcelt said:
My tense is absolutely correct. Whether you wish to admit it or not, even in eternity there has to be a beginning for our world. A moment when your God willed it into existence. If there is no such point…then your God cannot exist. The Catholic God knew with absolute certainty all future events when he created, with infallible foreknowledge he preordained all future events.That is Catholic Dogma that I have posted repeatedly.
Free will cannot exist under such a system, and all the Church offers is that it is a mystery.
Free will does exist…therefore nothing is foreknown or foreordained…therefore, the Catholic notion of God cannot exist.
We are on our own…thankfully.
Click to expand...
You seem to have forgotten, John, that free will is (pre)ordained… 😉
 
Charlemagne_III said:
When the judge created that child, he knew that the child could go either way, and that it was outside his power, given the free will of the child, to control which way the child went. The same with God. Love must be freely given. If it is not, that is hell, but the only person that can withhold it is the child. God gives us the freedom to choose heaven or hell. But since the atheist does not believe in God, he may at least believe in the power of nature to give us choices. Nature does give us choices, and the choices she gives us are to have our heaven or our hell on earth.
Click to expand...
The insoluble problem for the “naturalist” is that choices are illusions. Everything without exception has a natural cause. 😉
 
tonyrey said:
You seem to have forgotten, John, that free will is (pre)ordained… 😉
Click to expand...
Free will with handcuffs on is no free will at all. The creator MUST be totally out of the equation for true free will to exist.
 
oldcelt said:
Free will with handcuffs on is no free will at all. The creator MUST be totally out of the equation for true free will to exist.
Click to expand...
In that case how did free will originate?

NB This is relevant to the topic because the fear of hell is unfounded if we have free will…
 
tonyrey said:
In that case how did free will originate?

NB This is relevant to the topic because the fear of hell is unfounded if we have free will…
Click to expand...
Free will originated when man obtained consciousness…when our simian brains developed sufficiently through the consumption of large amounts of protein.
 
tonyrey said:
The insoluble problem for the “naturalist” is that choices are illusions. Everything without exception has a natural cause. 😉
Click to expand...
That is true for many naturalists. You can find some who are not entirely rank determinists. Atheists Ayn Rand and Jean Paul Sartre, for example, asserted free will. But even the naturalist has to admit that when choices are made, they are most often made by the person making them, rather than by someone else. So the natural causes come from within and are not necessarily predetermined by exterior natural causes.
 
oldcelt said:
Free will with handcuffs on is no free will at all. The creator MUST be totally out of the equation for true free will to exist.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on this thesis?

I don’t see what you mean by handcuffs.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Can you elaborate on this thesis?

I don’t see what you mean by handcuffs.
Click to expand...
You cannot create if you are no able to design consciousness. Consciousness is however simple, the essence of any being with the ability to experience and create. It has no part. Hence it cannot be designed hence created. That is the basic foundation of the reality: what is designable is not free.
 
Bahman said:
You cannot create if you are no able to design consciousness. Consciousness is however simple, the essence of any being with the ability to experience and create. It has no part. Hence it cannot be designed hence created. That is the basic foundation of the reality: what is designable is not free.
Click to expand...
:confused: 🤷
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Does anyone really want to go to hell? I doubt it.

What some people do want, however, is to get as far away from God as possible.

So hell is getting as far away from God as possible … forever.

It just might be that hell is really nothing more than the grinding recognition of the stupidity of choosing to get as far away from God as possible.
Click to expand...
Maybe they’re kidding but I’ve heard people say they rather go to hell & party with their friends.
Also, heavy metal songs like “Highway to Hell,” make it the object of their desire.
 
truetofaith said:
Maybe they’re kidding but I’ve heard people say they rather go to hell & party with their friends.
Also, heavy metal songs like “Highway to Hell,” make it the object of their desire.
Click to expand...
Highway to Hell was written about life on the road as a rock band.

John
 
oldcelt said:
Free will with handcuffs on is no free will at all. The creator MUST be totally out of the equation for true free will to exist.
Click to expand...
I still don’t see what you are getting at. Why can’t free will exist with God in the equation?

What does preordination and infallible foreknowledge have to do with free will?

Most of the naturalists I know (and many of them are atheists) say we have no free will anyway.

I think you only get true free will by putting God into the equation, because God has given us a choice between heaven and hell. Take that out of the equation and you have no choice left but 6 feet of earth.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
I still don’t see what you are getting at. Why can’t free will exist with God in the equation?

**What does preordination and infallible foreknowledge have to do with free will?
**
Most of the naturalists I know (and many of them are atheists) say we have no free will anyway.

I think you only get true free will by putting God into the equation, because God has given us a choice between heaven and hell. Take that out of the equation and you have no choice left but 6 feet of earth.
Click to expand...
Did you actually mean to ask the bolded question? That answer should be strikingly obvious.

Since I am not at naturalist I can’t speak for them.

The last paragraph simply demonstrates the weakness of your argument…either heaven or hell equals free will…I think not.

Cremation, being eaten by other animals…what will it matter? If our energy cannot maintain a coherent form post-death…it is all irrelevant. I’ll know nothing about it.

John
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top