The Fear of Hell

[Charlemagne_III]

Please understand, I raise no insult against the true God, but rather pointing out that the notion of eternal hell casts serious doubt on the goodness and justice of the Roman Catholic conception of God.

Please do understand that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not different from the teachings of Jesus Christ. You do not get to say that the Catholic God is not the true God. It is not ***our ***conception of hell that is the issue. It is the conception and the reality indicated by Jesus in Matthew 25. When you attack the teachings of the Catholic Church you attack Jesus Christ … at your own peril.

Eternal means eternal, whether you like that word or not. And it is precisely because Jesus uses that word that we ought to fear hell all the more. There is no escape clause. He has made it abundantly clear to all who will listen, that not only does the fool in his heart say there is no God (Psalms 14:1) but the fool in his heart also says there is no hell.

Correction: there is one escape clause before the judgment … repent and be saved by his merciful love.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

God Is God, theologians aren’t.

You clearly are not a theologian, but neither are you God. Jesus Christ is, and we don’t believe he lied when he said hell is eternal, as is heaven if you choose heaven rather than hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ah. I see you have a misapprehension that

hell = God has not forgiven you.

Let me assure you that this is not the case.

Hell is nothing more (and nothing less) than God’s love (and forgiveness) raining down upon a soul which finds God’s love odious.

Ever been to hell?

 

[davidv]

Ever been to hell?

No. Why, the question? Does this disqualify you from discussing it? If so, have you?

 

[PRmerger]

Ever been to hell?

Nope.

What’s the point of this question, Tom?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You clearly are not a theologian, but neither are you God. Jesus Christ is, and we don’t believe he lied when he said hell is eternal, as is heaven if you choose heaven rather than hell.

I, most definitely, am not a theologian nor am I God and what you commented on, “God Is God, theologians aren’t.” in my post to tonyrey is a very small part of the post, any comments on the rest of the post?

However, I have met God the Father and I have met the Holy Spirit.

I have also met satan.

Also, I have experienced hell and spiritual death, among other things.

Exactly why God initiated all of these things, I do not know.

I do know that one of the things that I was taught in second grade, that being that God Is Love, is quite literal and knowing it to be literal, influences my thoughts concerning God.

I used to believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate and that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, however, the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus therefore I now say that I “know” that Jesus is God-Incarnate, not just believe, because it would make no sense whatsoever for the Eucharist to be Jesus if Jesus were not God in the Flesh.

With the little bit that I know and that which I believe, I hope beyond what many believe is possible and I refuse to hope for less.

 

[Tom_Baum]

No. Why, the question? Does this disqualify you from discussing it? If so, have you?

Anyone can discuss hell but when someone says that they know “exactly” what hell is, I like to ask them how they know?

The “specifics” of hell do not seem to be spelled out and not only that but there are those that say that hell, as mentioned in some places, is not the same hell as mentioned in others.

Case in point, lots of people say that when one of the creeds says that, “Jesus descended into hell”, that it does not mean what it says.

Actually, I have experienced hell and spiritual death and I have said many times that they are not the same.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Anyone can discuss hell but when someone says that they know “exactly” what hell is, I like to ask them how they know?

The “specifics” of hell do not seem to be spelled out and not only that but there are those that say that hell, as mentioned in some places, is not the same hell as mentioned in others.

Case in point, lots of people say that when one of the creeds says that, “Jesus descended into hell”, that it does not mean what it says.

Actually, I have experienced hell and spiritual death and I have said many times that they are not the same.

I guess you have not experienced the real hell.

Perhaps like Audie Murphy, you have been to hell and back?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Nope.

What’s the point of this question, Tom?

You wrote, “Hell is nothing more (and nothing less) than God’s love (and forgiveness) raining down upon a soul which finds God’s love odious.”

I was wondering how you know exactly what hell is as in “nothing more (and nothing less)”?

I happen to believe that God has a “Godly reason” for hell and it is all part of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation and that we do not “know” all of the details of this Plan at present.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I guess you have not experienced the real hell.

Perhaps like Audie Murphy, you have been to hell and back?

Not even close.

You can guess all that you want and that will be just what it is, a guess.

After battling satan one on one for 24 plus hours, God got me to Perry Point VA hospital and it was there that I experienced hell and spiritual death.

I do not, even for an instant, believe that I have been thru more than Jesus, I do believe that Jesus went to hell, actually to everyone’s hell, since everyone’s hell is different.

Either I am an absolute nut case or I have experienced a few things that God allowed me to experience.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Either I am an absolute nut case or I have experienced a few things that God allowed me to experience.

I suppose you have already talked to your priest about this?

 

[PRmerger]

You wrote, “Hell is nothing more (and nothing less) than God’s love (and forgiveness) raining down upon a soul which finds God’s love odious.”

I was wondering how you know exactly what hell is as in “nothing more (and nothing less)”?

In the same way that I know my car has a catalytic converter, even though I’ve never seen one…through trusting in the authority of others.

Just like you do.

That’s really the only way we know most things, no?

I mean, really, how many times have you told your child, “X is the capital of Country Y”?

When your child says, “I was wondering how you know exactly that X is the capital of Country Y, when I know for a fact that you’ve never been to X” you would answer, after giving her a little pinch for her cheekiness, “Why, I know because I trust in the authority of Mrs. Caltigarone, who taught me that in 4th grade!”

You simply have faith in the authority of others.

Most things we don’t know from first hand experience.

 

[PRmerger]

Do criminals “choose” prison? Do smokers “choose” cancer? Do over-eaters choose heart disease?

I think analogy is better put like this: does the woman choose to reject her pursuer?

 

[tonyrey]

We are all punished with death; however virtuously or sinfully we live. Punished ancestrally for something we at no time had a choice in.

Compared to that, Hell just makes sense.

ICXC NIKA.

I don’t regard death as a punishment but a liberation from “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”. It would be hell to be compelled to live here forever on this planet with no escape from evil, injustice and the limitations of an earthly existence acknowledged in the Catechism. Jesus told us His kingdom is **not of this world **but in heaven.

 

[tonyrey]

This is an interesting response, and I suppose it is something with which we can work. I do not think you mean to assert the general maxim “a punishment is just if the victim of the punishment chooses it.” Do you mean to assert this? If so, it would be very easy to show that a punishment cannot be just simply because the victim of the punishment chooses it. For instance, if Bernie Madoff chose to, say, have a vacation in the Caymans as his punishment for his financial crimes, it seems like no one would say his vacation would be a just punishment. I do not think you mean that the justice of a punishment is contingent only on it being voluntary right?

I think you mean that the volition of the victim of a punishment has some bearing upon whether or not that punishment is just. However, this doesn’t seem to line up with our intuitions of justice either. Most people approve of the punishment of children, for instance, who are unable to consent to or even understand their punishments. Nonetheless, I think most would say that the punishment of a child is just because it will be restorative, instructive, or possibly act as a deterrent. Clearly, the justice of the punishment has nothing to do with whether the victim approves of or “chooses” the punishment itself.

Now, I don’t want to upset you, but I would like to point out that I believe the assertion that anyone “chooses” hell is both absurd and disingenuous. I do not accuse you of intentional dishonesty, since this deceptive and euphemistic language is common among modern apologists, but I do want to bring this to any reader’s attention. Do criminals “choose” prison? Do smokers “choose” cancer? Do over-eaters choose heart disease? Of course not! You may answer that these undesired results are natural consequences or proceed inevitably from the act, but I’m sure most people would love to “have their cake and eat it too” by smoking without getting cancer or over-eating and never becoming fat. It is nature who imposes the penalty here. The penalty is neither just nor unjust, simply “natural.”

But consider, who imposes the penalty of hell? God! Nature is blind, impersonal, and is bound by unbreakable laws. But, God has the freedom to allow poor sinners to be annihilated does he not? Yes, when we sin we harm ourselves and others, but it is God who imposes the radically horrific eternal punishment. Why is a temporal punishment not enough? Why wouldn’t, say, a million years of agonizing torture be enough for him? Is he never sated? Does his offense endure forever? Why?

There is no reason whatsoever to believe you or anyone you love will ever be in hell. Nature has nothing to do with it. It is a supernatural fate inflicted on themselves by individuals who are prepared to pay the price of being totally independent and accountable to no one but themselves. The very fact that you don’t want to be in hell demonstrates that you are not evil and opposed to God. There are very few people who commit atrocities and even they may not be fully responsible for what they do.

Nor does God need to impose any punishment on us because** the way we behave determines the final outcome of our life**. **We reap what we sow and if we love others we shall be loved by others and by God. **Nothing can separate us from God or anyone else except ourselves. Hell is not a trap but an alternative to heaven for those who say:

“Hallowed be my name,** my** kingdom come, my will be done on earth - and in hell”!

No sane person wants to be annihilated and disappear for ever. People only want to die when they think life has nothing to offer them and they soon change their mind if they fall in love or realise some one loves them. Then they have some one to live for and some one who lives for them - which is more important than anything else in the world. That is why Jesus prayed:

“May they be one as we are one”. …

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep. 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39

 

[Aloysium]

. . . There are very few people who commit atrocities and even they may not be fully responsible for what they do. . . .

Today’s reading from Acts 8:

There broke out a severe persecution of the Church in Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria, except the Apostles.
Devout men buried Stephen and made a loud lament over him.
Saul, meanwhile, was trying to destroy the Church; entering house after house and dragging out men and women, he handed them over for imprisonment.

Saul gave the go ahead for the stoning of St Stephen; and of course, we all know him as St Paul.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

charlemagne,

You say

Please do understand that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not different from the teachings of Jesus Christ. You do not get to say that the Catholic God is not the true God. It is not our conception of hell that is the issue. It is the conception and the reality indicated by Jesus in Matthew 25. When you attack the teachings of the Catholic Church you attack Jesus Christ … at your own peril.

What do you mean by “you do not get to say that the Catholic God is not the true God?” Clearly, I do assert this, so you don’t mean that I am not able. And, no one can prevent me from doing this (except the CA moderators of course ) so you don’t mean that I don’t have the freedom. Are you saying I don’t have the epistemic right? In other words, that I don’t have the right kind of knowledge to make this claim? How would you know? What if I believe that the Bible does not give an accurate representation of God? What if I believe that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are not protected by a divine spirit and contain errors and omissions about God? Aren’t these claims just as valid as your claims of the opposite? Why not? I think it is likely we’re epistemic peers, or that we have access to the same information. To baldly assert that your opinion is the correct one, given that we have access to the same information, is arbitrary. You identify the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with God’s authority and power. I am no longer able to believe this, despite my best efforts. Now, if you have access to some special knowledge about God, please share with us. However, you may not want to do this right now in this thread, since it will be off-topic.

tonyrey,

Nor does God need to impose any punishment on us because the way we behave determines the final outcome of our life.

I would love to believe this is the case, but it doesn’t seem to line up with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. God seems to reward and punish not only based upon behavior, but also belief. I fear that most of humanity, myself included, will end up in hell because we are unable to hold the correct beliefs. This seems utterly unfair to me, since there is no evidence that we “choose” our beliefs anymore than we “choose” our parents. This is a separate topic so I won’t go into it for fear of causing the thread to be censored.

Thank you for your attempt to reassure me about hell. I agree that no mentally healthy person wishes to be annihilated, but it does seem preferable to eternal torment no? Further, I appreciate that you believe that I am not evil, but I don’t think my desire to avoid hell is good enough evidence that I am not evil. What criminal desires to go to prison? How many smokers desire cancer? The desire to avoid punishment is not evidence of goodness, in my opinion. It is true that I believe I do not want to oppose the true God. I would love nothing more than to know God, to love God, and to obey God. But, I can’t believe that the truth about God is so ugly. The RCC’s teaching about God seems to me to be profoundly ugly, and I am unable to believe that hell is the final truth about the universe for me and so many of our brothers and sisters.

 

[PRmerger]

The RCC’s teaching about God seems to me to be profoundly ugly, and I am unable to believe that hell is the final truth about the universe for me and so many of our brothers and sisters.

There is no other possibility if you believe in these things:
-God exists
-God is love
-the human person has free will
-the soul exists and is eternal.

If you believe all of the above, hell must exist, logically.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

charlemagne,

You identify the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church with God’s authority and power. I am no longer able to believe this, despite my best efforts.

When you once believed that, it was your best effort!

You describe yourself as human … altogether too human?

And the fault of many humans is that they think they know the mind of God without any help from the Bible.

Matthew 25:41

The Catholic Church is THE Bible religion.

 

[Tom_Baum]

In the same way that I know my car has a catalytic converter, even though I’ve never seen one…through trusting in the authority of others.

Just like you do.

That’s really the only way we know most things, no?

I mean, really, how many times have you told your child, “X is the capital of Country Y”?

When your child says, “I was wondering how you know exactly that X is the capital of Country Y, when I know for a fact that you’ve never been to X” you would answer, after giving her a little pinch for her cheekiness, “Why, I know because I trust in the authority of Mrs. Caltigarone, who taught me that in 4th grade!”

You simply have faith in the authority of others.

Most things we don’t know from first hand experience.

And sometimes there are some things that we do know from first hand experience.

As I have said before, I do not know a lot but I do know a little and I do try to differentiate between “knowing” and “believing” since I happen to believe that the words, “know and believe”, do NOT mean the same thing, even though there seem to be quite a few who think that they do.