The Fear of Hell

[PumpkinCookie]

charlemagne,

Yes, Hitler, another lunatic, also acknowledged Nietzsche’s thoughts to be “powerful and interesting.”

Guilt by association I suppose?

Try not to think like a lawyer. Do you know what Shakespeare said about lawyers?

Why the repeated attacks upon the character of those with whom you disagree? I just don’t understand why you would engage in this kind of polemic. I realize this is a deeply shameful topic, and a source of nervous embarrassment for many people, myself included, but let’s bring this out into the light and examine it.

Consider my friend, you are defending the concept of eternal hell with much effort. Isn’t there at least some part of you that feels a sense of shame in doing so? Do you have the slightest inkling that eternal hell might not really be so fair after all? Doesn’t this concept cast aspersion upon the goodness of God? If it were true that there were no eternal hell, would not the teaching of eternal hell be a slander, or even a blasphemy against God?

To the other point, it seems like bodies cannot exist “outside of time” since bodies are made of matter and matter (as we know it) is always changing. Maybe our bodies won’t be composed of matter in the afterlife, but then it seems unintelligible to call whatever they are “bodies.” It also seems like that kind of radical change in our natures would make it seem meaningless to call those things “us.” Further, the saints, popes, and doctors quoted in that Catholic Answers tract linked to above are very explicit about the torments of hell being bodily in some way. Behold the ugliness of this quote by Lactantius:

“[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire” (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Here is another grim warning by Cyril of Jerusalem:

“We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We b.aspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past” (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

Clearly, God will make a special effort to torture the sinners in hell by miraculously sustaining their bodily existence so they can undergo endless torment. Perhaps the most illuminating quote is here, by someone or other…but hey, it has a “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” so I guess it is acceptable:

“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155])

So, basically, the martyrs were willing to endure earthly torture because the supposedly all-good, all-loving God threatened them with much worse torture. What a deeply dark and foul situation in which we find ourselves, if this is true! Can you not understand, truly, why so many human beings (dare I say, most?) cannot at the same time believe God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and sustains the existence of souls in hell? Is it truly so difficult to sympathize with this point of view?

Hopefully this won’t get censored. I just quoted Catholic Answer’s own tract, but it certainly is difficult to behold this kind of cruelty and callousness.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Why the repeated attacks upon the character of those with whom you disagree? I just don’t understand why you would engage in this kind of polemic. I realize this is a deeply shameful topic, and a source of nervous embarrassment for many people, myself included, but let’s bring this out into the light and examine it.

Consider my friend, you are defending the concept of eternal hell with much effort. Isn’t there at least some part of you that feels a sense of shame in doing so?

You apparently are reading only the parts of my posts that suit you.

The real shame is that you allege the cruelty of Jesus who promises us eternal hell if we do not choose him, and eternal happiness if we do.

It’s apparent that you are only here to slam Jesus and the Catholics who believe in his promises.

You need to consider whether you are insulting your Catholic hosts.

**Stop the ad hominems! **

 

[PRmerger]

Why the repeated attacks upon the character of those with whom you disagree? I just don’t understand why you would engage in this kind of polemic.

I hope you see the irony in this comment, Pumpkin.

It seems that you are reserving for yourself what you object to in others?

Do you have the slightest inkling that eternal hell might not really be so fair after all?

There is nothing unfair about eternal punishment, nor about eternal joy, if that is what we choose.

 

[Bradski]

There is nothing unfair about eternal punishment…

Should I forgive those who do evil to me?

 

[PRmerger]

Should I forgive those who do evil to me?

Of course, luv!

 

[Bradski]

Of course, luv!

Ah. Just that I was thinking maybe one should lead by example.

‘That guy murdered my children! I want him to suffer!’
‘Nope – you have to forgive him’.
‘I do? So my wife who had an abortion because the guy raped her, she gets forgiven as well?’
‘Ummm, no. I get to punish her for all eternity.’
‘But…that makes no sense at all.’
‘Hey look, I didn’t make the rules. Oh, sorry, my bad. Yes, I did actually.’

 

[tonyrey]

Ah. Just that I was thinking maybe one should lead by example.

‘That guy murdered my children! I want him to suffer!’
‘Nope – you have to forgive him’.
‘I do? So my wife who had an abortion because the guy raped her, she gets forgiven as well?’
‘Ummm, no. I get to punish her for all eternity.’
‘But…that makes no sense at all.’
‘Hey look, I didn’t make the rules. Oh, sorry, my bad. Yes, I did actually.’

There is abundant evidence that our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment. We have only ourselves to praise or blame for our destiny - unless of course justice is a fantasy. If that’s the case it doesn’t really matter how we behave…

 

[GEddie]

There is abundant evidence that our virtues bring their own reward and our vices incur their own punishment. We have only ourselves to praise or blame for our destiny - unless of course justice is a fantasy. If that’s the case it doesn’t really matter how we behave…

We are all punished with death; however virtuously or sinfully we live. Punished ancestrally for something we at no time had a choice in.

Compared to that, Hell just makes sense.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[tonyrey]

Consider my friend, you are defending the concept of eternal hell with much effort. Isn’t there at least some part of you that feels a sense of shame in doing so? Do you have the slightest inkling that eternal hell might not really be so fair after all? Doesn’t this concept cast aspersion upon the goodness of God? If it were true that there were no eternal hell, would not the teaching of eternal hell be a slander, or even a blasphemy against God?

To the other point, it seems like bodies cannot exist “outside of time” since bodies are made of matter and matter (as we know it) is always changing. Maybe our bodies won’t be composed of matter in the afterlife, but then it seems unintelligible to call whatever they are “bodies.” It also seems like that kind of radical change in our natures would make it seem meaningless to call those things “us.” Further, the saints, popes, and doctors quoted in that Catholic Answers tract linked to above are very explicit about the torments of hell being bodily in some way. Behold the ugliness of this quote by Lactantius:

Here is another grim warning by Cyril of Jerusalem:

Clearly, God will make a special effort to torture the sinners in hell by miraculously sustaining their bodily existence so they can undergo endless torment. Perhaps the most illuminating quote is here, by someone or other…but hey, it has a “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” so I guess it is acceptable:

So, basically, the martyrs were willing to endure earthly torture because the supposedly all-good, all-loving God threatened them with much worse torture. What a deeply dark and foul situation in which we find ourselves, if this is true! Can you not understand, truly, why so many human beings (dare I say, most?) cannot at the same time believe God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and sustains the existence of souls in hell? Is it truly so difficult to sympathize with this point of view?

Hopefully this won’t get censored. I just quoted Catholic Answer’s own tract, but it certainly is difficult to behold this kind of cruelty and callousness.

The colossal amount of cruelty and callousness in this world demands a grim warning that we cannot behave with impunity. It is precisely because people think they can do what what they like without fear of the consequences that there is so much unnnecessary misery and suffering inflicted as the result of the lust for power and wealth. To ignore the harsh reality of evil is itself evil and amounts to complicity.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

charlemagne,

I accused you of engaging in polemic yes, but that isn’t an attack upon your person. I consider the attempt to disqualify an idea by saying “X evil person also held that idea” a form of polemic. Is this an unfair judgment? Why?

Further, I don’t mean to insult anyone, but bring out into the light the teachings about hell and then comment that I believe this vision of hell is deeply unfair and possibly untrue. This is not a “slam.” I mean to raise an objection and an opposing view. I appreciate your opposing views and do not feel threatened by your opinions. I know it upsets you that it sounds like I’m saying Jesus is cruel for threatening (or dooming) people with eternal hell, but what if you focused on demonstrating to me that this is not cruelty? Explain to me, precisely, how an infinite punishment can be warranted or just.

tonyrey,

Yes, I agree with you that the world is filled with much evil. But, given Roman Catholicism’s account of the afterlife, eternity is ever so much more evil. I agree with the martyrs quoted above. If our choice is truly between torture in this life and eternal torture in the next, then I will cravenly choose torture in this life. Who can resist? Nothing could exert more force upon the will than the threat of unending torment and suffering. And yet, if it were such an effective threat, you would think there would be less evil in the world! See, this is part of the problem. If one wanted to justify the concept of hell by saying it is an effective deterrent, then one cannot also hold that the world is full of evil without admitting that the deterrent effect apparently isn’t so effective.

I do not dispute that those who work evil and cause suffering deserve punishment. I also do not dispute that some people fail to receive the punishment or reward they deserve in this life. I agree that the cosmic scales of justice are imbalanced, and something needs to make up the difference, but eternal hell just seems so unwarranted. To me it would seem that the eternal suffering of even one soul in heaven is a ghastly and unending scandal in the universe.

I’ve yet to read a convincing argument that the “punishment fits the crime.” Can you refer me to one?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah. Just that I was thinking maybe one should lead by example.

‘That guy murdered my children! I want him to suffer!’
‘Nope – you have to forgive him’.
‘I do? So my wife who had an abortion because the guy raped her, she gets forgiven as well?’
‘Ummm, no. I get to punish her for all eternity.’
‘But…that makes no sense at all.’
‘Hey look, I didn’t make the rules. Oh, sorry, my bad. Yes, I did actually.’

Ah. I see you have a misapprehension that

hell = God has not forgiven you.

Let me assure you that this is not the case.

Hell is nothing more (and nothing less) than God’s love (and forgiveness) raining down upon a soul which finds God’s love odious.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

charlemagne,

I accused you of engaging in polemic yes, but that isn’t an attack upon your person. I consider the attempt to disqualify an idea by saying “X evil person also held that idea” a form of polemic. Is this an unfair judgment? Why?

Further, I don’t mean to insult anyone, but bring out into the light the teachings about hell and then comment that I believe this vision of hell is deeply unfair and possibly untrue. This is not a “slam.” I mean to raise an objection and an opposing view. I appreciate your opposing views and do not feel threatened by your opinions. I know it upsets you that it sounds like I’m saying Jesus is cruel for threatening (or dooming) people with eternal hell, but what if you focused on demonstrating to me that this is not cruelty? Explain to me, precisely, how an infinite punishment can be warranted or just.

An infinite punishment is just and warranted when the sinner chooses it.

I do not mind personal insults against me. I mind them when they are directed at the mercy of a merciful and just God who grants us our choice either of eternal heaven or eternal hell.

Jesus having warned us clearly that the choice is eternal, only a fool chooses hell.

 

[PRmerger]

An infinite punishment is just and warranted when the sinner chooses it.

Indeed.

And let’s remember, except for a few folks (like babies, the developmentally delayed), all of us understand that our choices lead to punishment/reward…

and we are quite aware that after death lies eternity–either reward or punishment.

So it’s not like God just springs this on us at the end: “Surprise! You have to do this forever! You didn’t know? Oh, well, sorry, dude.”

 

[Mount_Carmel]

God for some reason known unto Himself assents to Hell, but it is not in any way a domain of His Love, since if it was it could not be Hell.

Hell exists from the rejection of God and His love. Angels as well as we humans had/have choice, and choice includes challenging and ultimately rejecting God if we so wish.

 

[Aloysium]

Pumpkin:

I suppose that you’ve come to a good place to vent your fears and angry objections to what has been revealed about the nature of human existence. I must advise that you misunderstand the mystery called hell, and that it would be of benefit for you to consult authoritative sources in scripture and the catechism; and, to pray. Why not go directly to the true Source? Your patience will be more than rewarded.

My :twocents: :

The Judge is Love and Justice itself. That sense of injustice and the pity that you feel and express in your posts, is a mere human reflection of He who emptied Himself of His infinite power to be humiliated, tortured, robbed of everything including His life, abandoned by those who said they loved Him, those very people for whom He died.

He is one with us and through Him we are able to know paradise.

All this suffering and death itself, we as one humanity have brought upon ourselves. This world which could still be a garden feeding all of us, is a vale of injustice, tears and suffering, made this way by our own hand.

What is hell but that in which we dip when we suffer in time. This dark, empty pit of misery and insatiable craving, we seek to escape in pleasure, glory, things and power, only to see it grow. We bring death in its many forms, upon one another, deluded in the lie that we can thereby bring ourselves above it, achieve a worldly transcendence, without God. And, what horrors will reveal themselves when the veil lifts and sin is seen for what it is, we ourselves in whom we have become, in the face of infinite love.

But, you can rejoice - we have been saved and redeemed though our Lord, Jesus Christ. I fear these words will not reach you. I pray that we all grow evermore in love, understanding and peace.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I know what Jesus tells us at the end of Matthew 25.

Do you think that Jesus lied?

Do you think that Jesus’s promise is despicable?

Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Do you know what the word “eternal” means?

Is Matthew 25 the only thing that Jesus said in the bible?

Is Matthew 25 the only thing that Jesus said concerning Salvation?

As far as Matthew 25, do you think that anyone is a “total sheep” or anyone a “total goat”?

Doesn’t it seem as if ALL are part sheep and part goat?

Actually, I do not know what “eternal” means exactly, do you?

Since time is a part of this part of God’s creation, do you think that time will be part of God’s creation in the “new heavens and the new earth”?

Do you think that “eternity” will still be around in the “new heavens and the new earth” or will the “new time” of the “new heavens and the new earth” do away with eternity?

There is plenty that I do not know and there is a little that I do know.

As for drawing ALL to him, stop looking for an escape clause.

Jesus supposedly said this and I repeated it, maybe you should take it up with Jesus.

I happen to think that Jesus was trying to tell us something, I also think that Jesus was trying to tell us something from the cross when He said, “IT IS FINISHED” which translates as PAID IN FULL.

Try not to think like a lawyer. Do you know what Shakespeare said about lawyers?

Actually, I do not know what Shakespeare said about lawyers but I have heard the analogy of Jesus being our defense attorney and satan being our prosecuting attorney.

I have never heard of satan being the DA but I have heard of satan being called our accuser.

God is also referred to as our Judge, isn’t He?

 

[fred_conty]

PumpkinCookie, you said,

I’ve yet to read a convincing argument that the “punishment fits the crime.” Can you refer me to one?

From a human point of view only, I couldn’t agree with you more.

But there is another understanding that we have thru our faith that supercedes human understanding.
And it is this…the divine life of God given to a person of faith at the moment of baptism. They become temples of God…in their soul. In some way there is the living presence of God within them which makes them worthy of heaven as children of their Father in heaven. So when they are called by their Father in heaven to come home to him, he welcomes them.

But if this divine presence of God in the soul is missing because of sin at the moment the Father calls them, then they are not the beloved of God that they once were and cannot enter his eternal home. They lost their inheiritance, their good sonship, and cannot be where God is, for God is perfection. When that is the case there is no other place for these who lost their divine life but to be away from God.

Jesus gave us a parable to explain this when he said a man gave a banquet and invited his guests. But there was a man who showed up in an unfit garb for the banquet. The man giving the banquet gave orders to eject the man into the street, for he was unfit to enter his banquet.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[tonyrey]

God for some reason known unto Himself assents to Hell, but it is not in any way a domain of His Love, since if it was it could not be Hell.

Hell exists from the rejection of God and His love. Angels as well as we humans had/have choice, and choice includes challenging and ultimately rejecting God if we so wish.

Indeed. However unpleasant the fact may be, authentic free will entails the power to reject God for all eternity. Anyone who rejects the possibility of hell fails to recognise the full significance of evil.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

An infinite punishment is just and warranted when the sinner chooses it.

This is an interesting response, and I suppose it is something with which we can work. I do not think you mean to assert the general maxim “a punishment is just if the victim of the punishment chooses it.” Do you mean to assert this? If so, it would be very easy to show that a punishment cannot be just simply because the victim of the punishment chooses it. For instance, if Bernie Madoff chose to, say, have a vacation in the Caymans as his punishment for his financial crimes, it seems like no one would say his vacation would be a just punishment. I do not think you mean that the justice of a punishment is contingent only on it being voluntary right?

I think you mean that the volition of the victim of a punishment has some bearing upon whether or not that punishment is just. However, this doesn’t seem to line up with our intuitions of justice either. Most people approve of the punishment of children, for instance, who are unable to consent to or even understand their punishments. Nonetheless, I think most would say that the punishment of a child is just because it will be restorative, instructive, or possibly act as a deterrent. Clearly, the justice of the punishment has nothing to do with whether the victim approves of or “chooses” the punishment itself.

Now, I don’t want to upset you, but I would like to point out that I believe the assertion that anyone “chooses” hell is both absurd and disingenuous. I do not accuse you of intentional dishonesty, since this deceptive and euphemistic language is common among modern apologists, but I do want to bring this to any reader’s attention. Do criminals “choose” prison? Do smokers “choose” cancer? Do over-eaters choose heart disease? Of course not! You may answer that these undesired results are natural consequences or proceed inevitably from the act, but I’m sure most people would love to “have their cake and eat it too” by smoking without getting cancer or over-eating and never becoming fat. It is nature who imposes the penalty here. The penalty is neither just nor unjust, simply “natural.”

But consider, who imposes the penalty of hell? God! Nature is blind, impersonal, and is bound by unbreakable laws. But, God has the freedom to allow poor sinners to be annihilated does he not? Yes, when we sin we harm ourselves and others, but it is God who imposes the radically horrific eternal punishment. Why is a temporal punishment not enough? Why wouldn’t, say, a million years of agonizing torture be enough for him? Is he never sated? Does his offense endure forever? Why?

Please understand, I raise no insult against the true God, but rather pointing out that the notion of eternal hell casts serious doubt on the goodness and justice of the Roman Catholic conception of God.

aloysium,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. I have prayed and fasted for many years for an answer to this question. I have consulted oh so many sources, and yet have not discovered a satisfying or honest answer. The best answer is “God is inscrutable and this is a mystery. Don’t think about it too much and just trust that God is good even though at least some people go to hell.” But this seems like spiritual and intellectual suicide to me. I cannot force myself to believe something that seems untrue, I just can’t do it. I need someone to convince me with evidence or reason or a miracle. I come here not to vent, but to extract or produce truth. I am hoping that someone will know something I don’t and will help me understand.

I can’t rejoice my friend, because I do not know that I, my family, my friends, or even most of humanity is saved and redeemed. For all I know, God sees me burning in hell right now (the future to us) while the chorus of saints rejoices in my eternal torment. For all I know, everyone I’ve ever loved is burning and burning forever. How can anyone rejoice given this predicament?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Those who reject Our Lord’s love don’t deserve our pity but that doesn’t mean they are necessarily in hell. We don’t know whether they will have a change of heart. We should hope and pray they will realise how proud and ungrateful they are. It is not for us to judge anyone - and that includes ourselves…

There is no valid reason to believe I have stated or even implied that after death there is no limit to evil. In fact the reverse is true because God’s infinite love encompasses everyone regardless of their decisions. It is never possible to separate ourselves entirely from our Creator because without His love we would cease to exist. The very fact that He created us in His own image means we are indestructible.

No one is evil in every respect and the element of goodness in everyone implies that it is impossible to be totally isolated from God. That is why it is simplistic to believe we shall be in either heaven or hell. There is another possibility which must apply to most of us: an opportunity to make amends for the unnecessary suffering we have caused in this world either deliberately or through negligence. Instead of believing “In the next world there IS NO LIMIT to the horrors of those in hell” I believe there is NO LIMIT in this world or the next to our opportunities to reach heaven because there is NO LIMIT to God’s love for us. That is all we need to know…

You wrote, “There is no valid reason to believe I have stated or even implied that after death there is no limit to evil.”

That is not what I said, what I said was, “You could have went on to say, “In the next world there IS NO LIMIT to the horrors of those in hell”, actually you already have, haven’t you?”

After reading your reply, it seems that what I thought you were saying, you didn’t say, sorry about that.

However, there are those on here that seem to definitely believe what I wrote, "“In the next world there IS NO LIMIT to the horrors of those in hell”.

If I understand correctly what you are saying in this post of yours, I stand corrected and I apologize.

I don’t know exactly how God will bring it about but I believe that God’s Plan is catholic concerning Salvation.

I happen to think/believe that there is a difference between “punishment” and “blood-sucking revenge” which some of us humans seem to believe “justice” to be.

I also happen to think/believe that hell is for a Godly reason, not for a for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever punishment in a horror beyond our comprehension.

Who knows, maybe God thought of something that some of the “best theologians”, so to speak, of all time never thought of, much less thought possible.

God Is God, theologians aren’t.