The Fear of Hell

[ynotzap]

According to catholic dogma and to most catholics I talked about, there’s no need to commit nasty things to be damned. To leave ( or refuse to join ) the catholic church is enough.

We are in no position to judge whether one will be damned or not, that requires full knowledge, and full knowledge of intent, and only God is capable of that. The Church makes efforts to inform one’s conscience with her moral truths so that one can make an informed decision. It is possible to be saved without joining the Church, but it is not possible to be saved without Jesus Christ. If one is saved he or she will meet Christ at some point of his or her existence, perhaps even in death before entrance into Heaven, or Purgatory. God is not bound by our understanding and rules. And it is even possible that Hitler, and some other bad guys will be there too. But not without purification, like the rest of us, here or here-after.

conradine:

So, if " extra ecclesiam nulla salus" is true, the saints will see in Hell, between Hitler and Pol Pot, also the atheist old lady that never hurted anyone, worked honestly for 80 years and cared for her children.

We must have the full understanding of the thought "no salvation outside the Church
before we judge. I am not convinced that many do.

conradine:

I wonder what can be rejoiced in that.

“Thank God that atheist old lady can no more live peacefully ignoring the church”?

Rejoice in the fact that you and I are fallible, but the Church in her teachings of faith and morals isn’t.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Jesus was the one who told us this parable and it need not be based on fact. Very often a parable is simply a story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. We certainly cannot deduce universal salvation from this parable nor is it a Church doctrine.

I know that it was Jesus Who gave us this parable but, according to the parable, it was Abraham who spoke in this parable.

As you said, “it need not be based on fact”, but it can be and it can be based on “fact” at the time of the setting of the story.

And as far as, “Very often a parable is simply a story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson”, I agree and a “story” can be fiction or non-fiction.

Wasn’t the “curtain” in the Holy of Holies supposedly tore in half somewhere during the time when Jesus was on the cross?

I believe that this “story” about the “curtain” could very well be a true story and also be a “spiritual” lesson.

Just saying that I believe that God accomplished quite a bit on the cross.

Could be that what Jesus was speaking about when He said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, is related to the story concerning Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus.

Could be that Jesus accomplished more on the cross than many think possible.

Could be alright to ponder.

Just because some “stories” in the bible are not “said” at the same time does NOT mean that there might not be a “relationship” between them.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God is not included in “everything”! He is the Creator who is not subject to our generalisations. The issue is whether everyone forgives completely - which is by no means certain. God died for us but we do not have to live or die** for **Him. Otherwise we would be puppets…

Whether you know it or not God Is a Being a Love, as opposed to love being merely an attribute of God, so that is why I posted:

"You also wrote, “Everything has its price and love is no exception…”

Are you saying that “God has His price” and that you know it?

If God “has His price”, as you put it, God has paid that price on the cross.", in the posting.

What I guess I was trying to say is, “If Love has a price than Love showed us what that price was when Love got on the cross.”

I wasn’t speaking about Love from a human perspective but from Love’s perspective.

By the way, I did not say anything about “everyone forgives completely”, what I said was if one forgives completely than one is forgiven completely.

Didn’t God say something concerning God’s covenant with man about how God would live up to His end of the covenant even if man did not?

I don’t believe that we are puppets either but I do believe that we are very capable of underestimating God.

 

[tonyrey]

I know that it was Jesus Who gave us this parable but, according to the parable, it was Abraham who spoke in this parable.

As you said, “it need not be based on fact”, but it can be and it can be based on “fact” at the time of the setting of the story.

And as far as, “Very often a parable is simply a story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson”, I agree and a “story” can be fiction or non-fiction.

Wasn’t the “curtain” in the Holy of Holies supposedly tore in half somewhere during the time when Jesus was on the cross?

I believe that this “story” about the “curtain” could very well be a true story and also be a “spiritual” lesson.

Just saying that I believe that God accomplished quite a bit on the cross.

Could be that what Jesus was speaking about when He said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, is related to the story concerning Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus.

Could be that Jesus accomplished more on the cross than many think possible.

Could be alright to ponder.

Just because some “stories” in the bible are not “said” at the same time does NOT mean that there might not be a “relationship” between them.

“could” is the most significant word! Only God knows the whole truth…

 

[tonyrey]

Whether you know it or not God Is a Being a Love, as opposed to love being merely an attribute of God, so that is why I posted:

"You also wrote, “Everything has its price and love is no exception…”

Are you saying that “God has His price” and that you know it?

If God “has His price”, as you put it, God has paid that price on the cross.", in the posting.

What I guess I was trying to say is, “If Love has a price than Love showed us what that price was when Love got on the cross.”

I wasn’t speaking about Love from a human perspective but from Love’s perspective.

By the way, I did not say anything about “everyone forgives completely”, what I said was if one forgives completely than one is forgiven completely.

Didn’t God say something concerning God’s covenant with man about how God would live up to His end of the covenant even if man did not?

I don’t believe that we are puppets either but I do believe that we are very capable of underestimating God.

We are also very capable of underestimating the power God has given us. The diabolical reality of evil cannot be easily fitted into the view that everyone lives together in peace, love and harmony forever and ever…

 

[GEddie]

“could” is the most significant word! Only God knows the whole truth…

Good answer

 

[PRmerger]

Are you telling me that one cannot be happy without God?

Yep. That is 100% true.

Now, just like a drug addict can have moments of happiness, it is an illusory happiness that has nothing to do with true happiness. It merely mimics it.

Stalin or Mussolini led a totally godless life and had nothing to do with love at all, but do you think they were miserable?

Yes, they were miserable little men with no means apprehend joy in their lives. Thus they sought satisfaction in meaningless things.

If they were then why didn’t they change?

They preferred their misery over relinquishing their selfishness.

Kind of like the story of those monkeys who starve themselves to death because they refuse to let go of the toy, preferring to leave their arm stuck clasping their precious toy they can’t use.

http://www.rootsauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/monkeytrap.jpg

 

[PRmerger]

So, if " extra ecclesiam nulla salus" is true, the saints will see in Hell, between Hitler and Pol Pot, also the atheist old lady that never hurted anyone, worked honestly for 80 years and cared for her children.

The Church makes no such statement about this atheist old lady that never hurt anyone being condemned to hell.

However, IF she is in heaven, she is there because of the Catholic Church.

That is all that EENS means–nothing more and nothing less.

 

[tonyrey]

“could” is the most significant word! Only God knows the whole truth…

Sometimes we all tend to be too dogmatic but we still have to make provisional decisions. If Jesus often referred to hell - and there’s little doubt that he did - the word must have some significance. The fact that He lost His temper in the Temple demonstrates that desecrating His Father’s house in order to exploit the poor is doubly diabolical. He put into action His warning that we have to choose between God and Mammon…

 

[Tom_Baum]

“could” is the most significant word! Only God knows the whole truth…

“Could” can be a word that one places their faith in.

“Could” can be a word that one places their hope in.

I, definitely, agree that only God knows the whole truth.

And as I have said many times, I believe that “know and believe” are two different words with two different meanings.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We are also very capable of underestimating the power God has given us. The diabolical reality of evil cannot be easily fitted into the view that everyone lives together in peace, love and harmony forever and ever…

As far as, “We are also very capable of underestimating the power God has given us”, I agree.

Some may be very surprised when they find out just what kinds of “power” that God has given us.

I ponder just what some of these powers might be and even though I do not know just what they may be, doesn’t keep me from incorporating, what they might be, in my prayers.

Concerning, "The diabolical reality of evil cannot be easily fitted into the view that everyone lives together in peace, love and harmony forever and ever… ".

If one believes that God and “The diabolical reality of evil” are equal than I can see your point but I don’t see them as even being close to equal and right there in Genesis is something to ponder.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel.”

I take this as a “literal spiritual truth” in that the “diabolical reality of evil” and all of the power associated with this “diabolical reality of evil” will be CRUSHED.

Actually, I believe that that which is responsible for the CRUSHING of evil has already been accomplished but has not yet been exerted.

I also believe that any of the “spiritual power” that God gives us that we need to do our “parts” of God’s Plan of Salvation were “won” on the cross.

Yes, I do believe that God’s Plan of Salvation invites us to be “active participants” in God’s Plan which God has had since before creation.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Church makes no such statement about this atheist old lady that never hurt anyone being condemned to hell.

However, IF she is in heaven, she is there because of the Catholic Church.

That is all that EENS means–nothing more and nothing less.

The Church also makes no statement about “Hitler and Pol Pot” “being condemned to hell”, does It?

 

[PRmerger]

The Church also makes no statement about “Hitler and Pol Pot” “being condemned to hell”, does It?

Egg-zactly. Who knows the state of their soul? Who knows their culpability? Maybe there was some mitigating factors (horribly abusive childhood? mental deficiency? inability to access one’s conscience?) which are not available to us which would permit them to be in purgatory?

Who knows.

Certainly not you or me.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Egg-zactly. Who knows the state of their soul? Who knows their culpability? Maybe there was some mitigating factors (horribly abusive childhood? mental deficiency? inability to access one’s conscience?) which are not available to us which would permit them to be in purgatory?

Who knows.

Certainly not you or me.

One or the other or both could also be in heaven.

He who is referred to as the “thief on the cross” was probably an insurrectionist and he was told, “Today, you shall be with Me in paradise”, wasn’t he?

 

[PRmerger]

One or the other or both could also be in heaven.

He who is referred to as the “thief on the cross” was probably an insurrectionist and he was told, “Today, you shall be with Me in paradise”, wasn’t he?

Of course.

Heaven is the reward that’s possible for all of us. All of us, Tom.

That’s the Catholic view of things, anyway.

 

[tonyrey]

As far as, “We are also very capable of underestimating the power God has given us”, I agree.

Some may be very surprised when they find out just what kinds of “power” that God has given us.

I ponder just what some of these powers might be and even though I do not know just what they may be, doesn’t keep me from incorporating, what they might be, in my prayers.

Concerning, "The diabolical reality of evil cannot be easily fitted into the view that everyone lives together in peace, love and harmony forever and ever… ".

If one believes that God and “The diabolical reality of evil” are equal than I can see your point but I don’t see them as even being close to equal and right there in Genesis is something to ponder.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel.”

I take this as a “literal spiritual truth” in that the “diabolical reality of evil” and all of the power associated with this “diabolical reality of evil” will be CRUSHED.

Actually, I believe that that which is responsible for the CRUSHING of evil has already been accomplished but has not yet been exerted.

I also believe that any of the “spiritual power” that God gives us that we need to do our “parts” of God’s Plan of Salvation were “won” on the cross.

Yes, I do believe that God’s Plan of Salvation invites us to be “active participants” in God’s Plan which God has had since before creation.

It is becoming evident, Tom, that there is very little difference between our views. However great the power of evil may be, it has not existed forever. It may be that no one is in hell but it seems very doubtful Satan will ever be in heaven! The fear of hell is justified because we cannot guarantee we shall definitely be in heaven. In fact it would amount to an unjustified form of pride reminiscent of the Pharisees whom Jesus called the sons of hell. It would also make us more careless than we should be, yet at the same time our dominant attitude should be hope and confidence in God’s infinite love. Looking forward to heaven is a more logical reaction to the good news brought to us by our Lord. That should inspire us far more than meditating on hell but not thinking about it at all might lessen our appreciation of heaven!

 

[tonyrey]

It is becoming evident, Tom, that there is very little difference between our views. However great the power of evil may be, it has not existed forever. It may be that no one is in hell but it seems very doubtful Satan will ever be in heaven! The fear of hell is justified because we cannot guarantee we shall definitely be in heaven. In fact it would amount to an unjustified form of pride reminiscent of the Pharisees whom Jesus called the sons of hell. It would also make us more careless than we should be, yet at the same time our dominant attitude should be hope and confidence in God’s infinite love. Looking forward to heaven is a more logical reaction to the good news brought to us by our Lord. That should inspire us far more than meditating on hell but not thinking about it at all might lessen our appreciation of heaven!

“the power of evil” may give the impression that it exists independently which of course is nonsense. It exists only in the minds of individuals who have a pernicious influence on others although both good and evil ideas seem to have a life of their own long after their originators are forgotten - apart from Satan…

 

[Techno2000]

It is becoming evident, Tom, that there is very little difference between our views. However great the power of evil may be, it has not existed forever. It may be that no one is in hell but it seems very doubtful Satan will ever be in heaven! The fear of hell is justified because we cannot guarantee we shall definitely be in heaven. In fact it would amount to an unjustified form of pride reminiscent of the Pharisees whom Jesus called the sons of hell. It would also make us more careless than we should be, yet at the same time our dominant attitude should be hope and confidence in God’s infinite love. Looking forward to heaven is a more logical reaction to the good news brought to us by our Lord. That should inspire us far more than meditating on hell but not thinking about it at all might lessen our appreciation of heaven!

It’s good to think about hell because those that are there never thought it existed.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

It’s good to think about hell because those that are there never thought it existed.

I bet tonyrey loves the above response! [sarcasm]

It appears that at least some people think that “hell is] a trap.”

 

[GEddie]

It’s good to think about hell because those that are there never thought it existed.

Or they thought **they **could never go there, more likely.

ICXC NIKA