The Fear of Hell

[tonyrey]

When I almost drowned in the sea I seemed completely detached from the world beyond space and time with only one thought in my mind: how my mother would feel when she was told I was dead. I was motivated by concern for her feelings rather than fear. That was why I overcame my panic and forced myself to swim back to the beach.

I have made it sound much easier than it was. When I came back to immediate reality I had to force myself to float on my back. It was a choppy sea and I was still swallowing water with every big wave. I was too afraid to turn over and had to use the back stroke all the way to the beach. It took me quite a long time to reach it because the tide was going out.

If I hadn’t felt detached I’m sure I would have drowned. I must have been close to death because I had been under the surface several times and had swallowed a lot of water. It was only my sense of detachment that enabled me to think lucidly and control my fear. Perhaps it was a foretaste of what will happen when we leave this world. I’m pleased I was worried about my mother rather than myself. The thought of hell, let alone fear, didn’t come into my mind at all.

 

[tonyrey]

Why did Jesus give us this parable if Abraham’s words are not true?

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41

(BTW, I wonder if the parable is saying that all rich men who live in luxury end up in hell? What do you think? )

Jesus gave the reason for being in hell:

For I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink…

To be wealthy is not a sin but if none of that wealth is ever used to alleviate the suffering of the poor and afflicted it reveals an inexcusable lack of love and compassion.

 

[openmind77]

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41

I don’t think you read the whole thread.

But as I explained earlier about Matthew 25, Jesus is saying here that the fires of hell are eternal. He is not saying anyone will be sent there for eternity. In any case in Matthew 25, he is not even talking about unrepentant sinners - he is talking about those who disregard the needs of ‘the least of these’.

These people are the ones who will refuse healthcare to the poor who are sick, take away food from the poor who are hungry, evict strangers/immigrants from your home/country, ignore many who are suffering in prison - actually this sounds like the budget passed recently in this very month in Congress - doesn’t it? Jesus must have foreseen this budget.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think you read the whole thread.

But as I explained earlier about Matthew 25, Jesus is saying here that the fires of hell are eternal. He is not saying anyone will be sent there for eternity. In any case in Matthew 25, he is not even talking about unrepentant sinners - he is talking about those who disregard the needs of ‘the least of these’.

You are clutching at straws in a vain attempt to distort the meaning of a very clear message. It doesn’t make sense to refer to eternal fire if no one is in hell forever. What is to stop individuals permanently revolting against God if they have free will? And the distinction between unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the needs of the poor is contrived to fit a preconceived conclusion. It is obvious to any unbiased person that those who continue to disregard the needs of the poor see no reason to repent - unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).

These people are the ones who will refuse healthcare to the poor who are sick, take away food from the poor who are hungry, evict strangers/immigrants from your home/country, ignore many who are suffering in prison - actually this sounds like the budget passed recently in this very month in Congress - doesn’t it? Jesus must have foreseen this budget.

You are putting the cart before the horse! It is far more logical that the budget is based on the Western inheritance of the teaching of Jesus which is the basis of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Modern society doesn’t exist in a moral vacuum even though secularism has made inroads into many people’s values…

 

[openmind77]

You are clutching at straws in a vain attempt to distort the meaning of a very clear message. It doesn’t make sense to refer to eternal fire if no one is in hell forever. What is to stop individuals permanently revolting against God if they have free will? And the distinction between unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the needs of the poor is contrived to fit a preconceived conclusion. It is obvious to any unbiased person that those who continue to disregard the needs of the poor see no reason to repent - unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).

You are putting the cart before the horse! It is far more logical that the budget is based on the Western inheritance of the teaching of Jesus which is the basis of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Modern society doesn’t exist in a moral vacuum even though secularism has made inroads into many people’s values…

Not straws at all, you can just read the words to interpret them for yourself (something everyone should learn to do).

As I said before there will always be new people who die and enter hell which is why the fires need to eternal. Does not mean everyone who enters has to stay forever.

Jesus just says that the fires are eternal, nothing about how long those who ignore the poor will be sent there.

So according to you unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the poor are one and same? Very interesting indeed!

I see you are in the UK, so you probably don’t know about the budget passed in the US Congress or the Congress’s opinion of any UN declarations.

 

[tonyrey]

You are clutching at straws in a vain attempt to distort the meaning of a very clear message. It doesn’t make sense to refer to eternal fire if no one is in hell forever. What is to stop individuals permanently revolting against God if they have free will? And the distinction between unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the needs of the poor is contrived to fit a preconceived conclusion. It is obvious to any unbiased person that those who continue to disregard the needs of the poor see no reason to repent - unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).

The flaw in that argument is that there is no fire in hell! It is a metaphor used by Jesus to describe the self-inflicted misery and frustration of those who sacrifice others in their pursuit of power, pleasure and wealth.

So according to you unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the poor are one and same? Very interesting indeed!

Non sequitur. It doesn’t follow that those who continue to disregard the poor are the** only **unrepentant sinners. It is just one category.

I see you are in the UK, so you probably don’t know about the budget passed in the US Congress or the Congress’s opinion of any UN declarations.

These people are the ones who will refuse healthcare to the poor who are sick, take away food from the poor who are hungry, evict strangers/immigrants from your home/country, ignore many who are suffering in prison - actually this sounds like the budget passed recently in this very month in Congress - doesn’t it? Jesus must have foreseen this budget.

I may have been mistaken but you gave the impression that the thought of the US budget was paramount in His mind whereas social injustice - similar to that also inflicted by the present UK government - has been universal to varying degrees throughout the history of human civilisation. I agree that such policies are evil and unChristian.

 

[black_sphere]

I think you are taking the idea that we choose hell wayyyyy too far.

It’s our choice, but that doesn’t mean it brings us happiness.

This statement you made (shown below) is, frankly, one of the most absurd I’ve read here on the CAFs.

.

We can choose to commit adultery–and no one would deny that we were free to meet the guy, get naked with him and get busy–but that most certainly will NOT bring happiness.

What’s so absurd about it? Are you telling me that one cannot be happy without God? Stalin or Mussolini led a totally godless life and had nothing to do with love at all, but do you think they were miserable? If they were then why didn’t they change?

So what makes one suffer in hell? The realization that you lost the gift of eternal bliss? But those in hell don’t want God anywhere near them so not much of a loss to them it appears.

 

[GEddie]

The flaw in that argument is that there is no fire in hell! It is a metaphor used by Jesus to describe the self-inflicted misery and frustration of those who sacrifice others in their pursuit of power, pleasure and wealth.

Non sequitur. It doesn’t follow that those who continue to disregard the poor are the** only **unrepentant sinners. It is just one category.

I may have been mistaken but you gave the impression that the thought of the US budget was paramount in His mind whereas social injustice - similar to that also inflicted by the present UK government - has been universal to varying degrees throughout the history of human civilisation. I agree that such policies are evil and unChristian.

TR, chico,

Methinks you overstate your case when you so vehemently deny the fire of Hell.

Hell may or may not involve fire, but we who have not seen it have no way of knowing categorically.

ICXC NIKA

 

[mikekle]

Of course you don’t know for sure in ALL cases. But in a majority of cases when you get killed while running from the police you don’t get the chance to even think about repentance.

Even if someone runs at a cop with a gun, and the cop shoots them in the chest, yes, they will die, but usually its not instant death, it takes a few seconds for a person to actually die, my point was, we dont know what happens in those MILLISECONDS between the last few breaths and the ultimate death of the body and brain, maybe in that ‘state of being’ those last few milliseconds seem like hours.

The only ‘instant’ type death scenarios I can think of would be like close range gunshot to the head, or falling off a tall building, hitting the ground, but even in those cases, we still dont know what happens in those last few milliseconds, OR how long they seem to us, anything is possible with God, so its quite possible people are given that one last chance right before their death.

 

[mikekle]

You are clutching at straws in a vain attempt to distort the meaning of a very clear message. It doesn’t make sense to refer to eternal fire if no one is in hell forever. What is to stop individuals permanently revolting against God if they have free will?

I get what he is saying, I dont think hes grasping at straws at all, the verse says, 'depart from me and into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, we know the devil and his angels are permanently fallen, NO chance of repenting, so for them, once they are in hell, they will be there PERMANENTLY, but humans were given free will, that means they have a choice, I dont believe that choice ends at death, that would mean Gods gift to us is temporary.

I believe its possible for someone who originally goes to hell, to eventually recognize their faults and cry out to be saved, but it must be sincere, God knows whats in each of our hearts, so he will know if we are being truthful or not, likewise it would be possible for someone in heaven to revolt, but I find that very unlikely, but still I do believe they would still have free will.

A better way to understand this…if free will was only applicable in our earthly lives, then free will in itself would be the same thing as our physical bodies, it would be temporary and not eternal…I believe free will is a gift God gave to us as we are IMMORTAL beings, only our physical bodies are temporary.

 

[Tom_Baum]

“Forgive us** as** we forgive…” implies that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined. If we are looking for perfection it is found in this simple prayer with its final request “Deliver us from evil”. If we are prepared to say that and mean it we have nothing to fear in this life or the next. We alone determine our destiny - just as our children determine theirs. That is God’s will and if we don’t trust the truth of the prayer He gave us we cannot be true Christians and underestimate the power He has shared with us. We cannot have it all for nothing.** Everything has its price and love is no exception…**

You wrote, “implies that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined.”

I believe “that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined”, in that Divine Mercy and Divine Justice are so intertwined as to be One.

I also believe that “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” is a Divine equation, so to speak, if we forgive completely, we are forgiven completely, simple as that.

However Jesus also gave us the parable of the “unforgiving servant” and in it, Jesus points out that the “unforgiving servant” will “pay”, so to speak, but will also be let out eventually.

You also wrote, “Everything has its price and love is no exception…”

Are you saying that “God has His price” and that you know it?

If God “has His price”, as you put it, God has paid that price on the cross.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is clear in His parable:

Luke 16:19-31

Why did Jesus give us this parable if Abraham’s words are not true?

Something to think about: One of the things about this parable is that Abraham spoke these words before Jesus went to the cross.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You are clutching at straws in a vain attempt to distort the meaning of a very clear message. It doesn’t make sense to refer to eternal fire if no one is in hell forever. What is to stop individuals permanently revolting against God if they have free will? And the distinction between unrepentant sinners and those who disregard the needs of the poor is contrived to fit a preconceived conclusion. It is obvious to any unbiased person that those who continue to disregard the needs of the poor see no reason to repent - unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).

You are putting the cart before the horse! It is far more logical that the budget is based on the Western inheritance of the teaching of Jesus which is the basis of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Modern society doesn’t exist in a moral vacuum even though secularism has made inroads into many people’s values…

You wrote, “unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).”

If one reads what Jesus supposedly said than one should see that there are those in both groups who seem to be baffled that they are in one or the other group, doesn’t it?

Wouldn’t this include those that you refer to as those that “can’t think straight”?

I happen to believe and hope that God has “all of the bases covered”, so to speak, even if we can not see this.

“They have eyes but can not see, they have ears but can not hear”.

Maybe Jesus really is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . they have ears but can not hear. . . .

I think people hear you alright.
I will follow the teachings of the Church.
Your opinions have been noted.

 

[CRATUS]

Sometimes we hear unbelievers say they cannot respect the idea of a God who would prepare for us a place of everlasting suffering. Such a God is petty and vindictive. How would you answer this critique of the Christian hell?

Hell is just separation for God. God is supposed to be the source of all-goodness. Hell is a choice. You choose to select yourself from God.

 

[tonyrey]

TR, chico,

Methinks you overstate your case when you so vehemently deny the fire of Hell.

Hell may or may not involve fire, but we who have not seen it have no way of knowing categorically.

ICXC NIKA

Amigo, fire is physical but hell is spiritual.

 

[tonyrey]

I get what he is saying, I dont think hes grasping at straws at all, the verse says, 'depart from me and into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, we know the devil and his angels are permanently fallen, NO chance of repenting, so for them, once they are in hell, they will be there PERMANENTLY, but humans were given free will, that means they have a choice, I dont believe that choice ends at death, that would mean Gods gift to us is temporary.

I agree with you.

I believe its possible for someone who originally goes to hell, to eventually recognize their faults and cry out to be saved, but it must be sincere, God knows whats in each of our hearts, so he will know if we are being truthful or not, likewise it would be possible for someone in heaven to revolt, but I find that very unlikely, but still I do believe they would still have free will.

A better way to understand this…if free will was only applicable in our earthly lives, then free will in itself would be the same thing as our physical bodies, it would be temporary and not eternal…I believe free will is a gift God gave to us as we are IMMORTAL beings, only our physical bodies are temporary.

I also agree those who are in hell (if there any such persons) have free will but that doesn’t imply they will ever** necessarily** repent.

 

[Conradine]

Hell is just separation for God. God is supposed to be the source of all-goodness. Hell is a choice. You choose to select yourself from God.

Amen.

 

[tonyrey]

You wrote, “implies that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined.”

I believe “that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined”, in that Divine Mercy and Divine Justice are so intertwined as to be One.

I also believe that “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” is a Divine equation, so to speak, if we forgive completely, we are forgiven completely, simple as that.

However Jesus also gave us the parable of the “unforgiving servant” and in it, Jesus points out that the “unforgiving servant” will “pay”, so to speak, but will also be let out eventually.

You also wrote, “Everything has its price and love is no exception…”

Are you saying that “God has His price” and that you know it?

If God “has His price”, as you put it, God has paid that price on the cross.

God is not included in “everything”! He is the Creator who is not subject to our generalisations. The issue is whether everyone forgives completely - which is by no means certain. God died for us but we do not have to live or die** for **Him. Otherwise we would be puppets…

 

[Conradine]

Hell is a state of the mind. Those who embrace it, find there’s nothing to fear.