The Fear of Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_III
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tom_Baum said:
Something to think about: One of the things about this parable is that Abraham spoke these words before Jesus went to the cross.
Click to expand...
Jesus was the one who told us this parable and it need not be based on fact. Very often a parable is simply a story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. We certainly cannot deduce universal salvation from this parable nor is it a Church doctrine.
 
Tom_Baum said:
You wrote, “unless they can’t think straight (in which case they’re not even sinners and don’t need to repent!).”

If one reads what Jesus supposedly said than one should see that there are those in both groups who seem to be baffled that they are in one or the other group, doesn’t it?

Wouldn’t this include those that you refer to as those that “can’t think straight”?
Click to expand...
Those who can’t think straight are not responsible for what they think or choose and cannot possibly be in hell.
I happen to believe and hope that God has “all of the bases covered”, so to speak, even if we can not see this.
Click to expand...
“They have eyes but can not see, they have ears but can not hear”.
Click to expand...
Maybe Jesus really is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.
Click to expand...
Jesus is indeed the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD but it doesn’t follow that everyone must choose to be saved…:dts:
 
I have logical, scriptural and philosphical reasons that I prefer to not discuss here and now ( nothing about “occult truths” and similar; I’m simply a bit tired and I prefer to not start a serious debate on a subject that would require time ).

Anyway, in a few words, the spiritual state is ultimately a choice. It’s more about being ok with your choice than what precisely is the choice. It’s a matter of self-honesty and coherency.

Beside that, I see Jigoku ( Hell ) every day in meditation, every night in my dreams. I am already in Hell, spiritually. I live it.

Some would call me mad or a deluded fool, but I’ve faith. Sometimes faith is the only thing that keeps you alive.
 
Conradine said:
I have logical, scriptural and philosphical reasons that I prefer to not discuss here and now ( nothing about “occult truths” and similar; I’m simply a bit tired and I prefer to not start a serious debate on a subject that would require time ).

Anyway, in a few words, the spiritual state is ultimately a choice. It’s more about being ok with your choice than what precisely is the choice. It’s a matter of self-honesty and coherency.

Beside that, I see Jigoku ( Hell ) every day in meditation, every night in my dreams. I am already in Hell, spiritually. I live it.

Some would call me mad or a deluded fool, but I’ve faith. Sometimes faith is the only thing that keeps you alive.
Click to expand...
I agree but the question is why you have nothing to fear in hell? I believe we are in hell if we have no love for others…

Ironically Veneto is described on a website as “Italy Heaven”. 🙂
 
Because a spiritual state is something to fear only if it’s a conflictually choosen state. Please note that my view on spirituality is probabily quite different from your, so we could be talking about different concepts.
Hell is the state of self-reliance and spiritual isolation that christians sometimes calls “separation”. It’s a painful condition if it’s an half hearted choice, or not reasoned enough. To embrace Hell requires spiritual preparation, and often is a life-long journey.

Specifically, I fear nothing in Hell because I disciplined the mind to accept painlessly the same things that would have caused me spiritual suffering, like regret. Or, as you well said, the absence of love.
Ironically Veneto is described on a website as “Italy Heaven”.
Click to expand...
There are wonderfoul woods and mountains, and small but beautiful lakes 🙂
 
Obviously, Jigoku ( Hell ), the state of mind I’m talking about, has nothing to do about being flayed and burned alive by red devils with pitchforks. I don’t believe such a thing exist.
 
Conradine said:
Because a spiritual state is something to fear only if it’s a conflictually choosen state. Please note that my view on spirituality is probabily quite different from your, so we could be talking about different concepts.
Hell is the state of self-reliance and spiritual isolation that christians sometimes calls “separation”. It’s a painful condition if it’s an half hearted choice, or not reasoned enough. To embrace Hell requires spiritual preparation, and often is a life-long journey.

Specifically, I fear nothing in Hell because I disciplined the mind to accept painlessly the same things that would have caused me spiritual suffering, like regret. Or, as you well said, the absence of love.

There are wonderf(o)ul woods and mountains, and small but beautiful lakes 🙂
Click to expand...
So you have a blend of heaven and hell! On that happy note I wish you good night as I have to get up early… :yawn:… Excuse me… 😉
 
Man did not bring himself into existence, and he can not rationally deny that he exists. For is doing so, his denial is proof of his existence, for he could not deny if he didn’t exist. By reason he can come to the reasonableness of faith, we understand to believe, and we believe to understand what we believe. We can only come to the concept of an eternal hell and all it implies by belief. Belief in the Truths of Christianity is a super-natural gift. Assuming that we have that gift, we can come to the understanding that God is our Creator, and we are created by, and for Him. God we learn is a our final end. To achieve this final end, we need to co-operate with His grace (the Holy Spirit), and we learn we have an enemy who hates us, and most of all God. This involves the power of choice, our free will. In this action of choice we can reject, or accept the conditions for our salvation. God uphold our choices, even evil ones. In our choices, the movement of the will, the seat of love, we exhibit our desires. Since our negative choices, those choices that do not exhibit love for God, we create our own hell by turning our backs on the One who is Love, Beatitude, End, Beauty, Truth, Goodness and all we truly desire, and for which we were created. To be separated from our destiny and end is to frustrate what we were created for,God. We contradict our very nature, we would destroy ourselves if we could, to live in total hatred, total darkness, total insanity. And it’s all of our own making, and we blame God who gives us what we desire. What He creates He sustains eternally. Even in this mortal life we can experience some of this Hell. Satan through our spiritual weaknesses, our ignorance, our passions, our illusions of happiness can only with our co-operation lead us to the choices that will lead us to an eternal Hell of suffering. Jesus Christ came to destroy his works, and lead us back to Our Eternal Father. Faith is a super-natural gift that comes only through Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation apart from Him.
 
ynotzap said:
Man did not bring himself into existence, and he can not rationally deny that he exists. For is doing so, his denial is proof of his existence, for he could not deny if he didn’t exist. By reason he can come to the reasonableness of faith, we understand to believe, and we believe to understand what we believe. We can only come to the concept of an eternal hell and all it implies by belief. Belief in the Truths of Christianity is a super-natural gift. Assuming that we have that gift, we can come to the understanding that God is our Creator, and we are created by, and for Him. God we learn is a our final end. To achieve this final end, we need to co-operate with His grace (the Holy Spirit), and we learn we have an enemy who hates us, and most of all God. This involves the power of choice, our free will. In this action of choice we can reject, or accept the conditions for our salvation. God uphold our choices, even evil ones. In our choices, the movement of the will, the seat of love, we exhibit our desires. Since our negative choices, those choices that do not exhibit love for God, we create our own hell by turning our backs on the One who is Love, Beatitude, End, Beauty, Truth, Goodness and all we truly desire, and for which we were created. To be separated from our destiny and end is to frustrate what we were created for,God. We contradict our very nature, we would destroy ourselves if we could, to live in total hatred, total darkness, total insanity. And it’s all of our own making, and we blame God who gives us what we desire. What He creates He sustains eternally. Even in this mortal life we can experience some of this Hell. Satan through our spiritual weaknesses, our ignorance, our passions, our illusions of happiness can only with our co-operation lead us to the choices that will lead us to an eternal Hell of suffering. Jesus Christ came to destroy his works, and lead us back to Our Eternal Father. Faith is a super-natural gift that comes only through Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation apart from Him.
Click to expand...
👍 “We create our own hell” are the key words.
 
We too should rejoice and be grateful that the damned cannot commit any further atrocities. Even in this world we can see there is hardly any limit to diabolical cruelty and wanton destruction.
Click to expand...
According to catholic dogma and to most catholics I talked about, there’s no need to commit nasty things to be damned. To leave ( or refuse to join ) the catholic church is enough.

So, if " extra ecclesiam nulla salus" is true, the saints will see in Hell, between Hitler and Pol Pot, also the atheist old lady that never hurted anyone, worked honestly for 80 years and cared for her children.

I wonder what can be rejoiced in that.

“Thank God that atheist old lady can no more live peacefully ignoring the church”?
 
Conradine said:
According to catholic dogma and to most catholics I talked about, there’s no need to commit nasty things to be damned. To leave ( or refuse to join ) the catholic church is enough.

So, if " extra ecclesiam nulla salus" is true, the saints will see in Hell, between Hitler and Pol Pot, also the atheist old lady that never hurted anyone, worked honestly for 80 years and cared for her children.

I wonder what can be rejoiced in that.

“Thank God that atheist old lady can no more live peacefully ignoring the church”?
Click to expand...
If she committed the same evil as them, then she would go the same level in hell as them.
 
Thinking about that, several catholic teologicians like Rahner and the actual Pope Francis seems more oriented toward a chance, at least theoretical, of universal salvation.
It’s quite controversial.
If she committed the same evil as them, then she would go the same level in hell as them.
Click to expand...
I wrote about an hypothetical harmless person. I clearly wrote “that never hurted anyone”.
Anyway, it was quite a stretched example. Only a very literal interpretation of “extra ecclesiam” would sentence to hell harmless non christians.
I guess they would fall unto the “invincible ignorance” salvation.
 
Conradine said:
I wrote about an hypothetical harmless person. I clearly wrote “that never hurted anyone”.
Anyway, it was quite a stretched example. Only a very literal interpretation of “extra ecclesiam” would sentence to hell harmless non christians.
I guess they would fall unto the “invincible ignorance” salvation.
Click to expand...
I can tell you about the different degrees of Purgatory because I have passed through them. In the great Purgatory there are several stages. In the lowest and most painful, like a temporary hell, are the sinners who have committed terrible crimes during life and whose death surprised them in that state. It was almost a miracle that they were saved, and often by the prayers of holy parents or other pious persons. Sometimes they did not even have time to confess their sins and the world thought them lost, but God, whose mercy is infinite, gave them at the moment of death the contrition necessary for their salvation on account of one or more good actions which they performed during life. For such souls, Purgatory is terrible. It is a real hell with this difference, that in hell they curse God, whereas we bless Him and thank Him for having saved us.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top