The Fear of Hell

[davidv]

This being, "Originally Posted by CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire.“617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”

Jesus said something to the effect that ALL sins will be forgiven except “blasphemy of the Spirit”, would you consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”?

No I do not consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”.

I believe that it can be inferred from formal teachings that blasphemy of the Spirit is final impenitence. In other words, it is the obstinate refusal to acknowledge ones sins and ask for forgiveness.

As far as I know, no one has ever figured out what “blasphemy of the Spirit” is, do you know just what it is?

It is one of my most fervent prayers that somehow God would keep ALL from that sin.

Yet He allows us to sin.

Seems as if what Jesus supposedly said and what the catechism says is at odds.
I believe that Jesus trumps the catechism.

Seems and is are often at odds. Since the Catechism is the work of the Church that Jesus started there is no need for trumping.

Any thoughts from you or anyone else concerning what Jesus said concerning forgiveness?

I believe we will be forgiven every sin we are sorry for committing.

 

[tonyrey]

This being, "Originally Posted by CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire.“617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”

Jesus said something to the effect that ALL sins will be forgiven except “blasphemy of the Spirit”, would you consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”?

As far as I know, no one has ever figured out what “blasphemy of the Spirit” is, do you know just what it is?

It is one of my most fervent prayers that somehow God would keep ALL from that sin.

Seems as if what Jesus supposedly said and what the catechism says is at odds.

I believe that Jesus trumps the catechism.

Any thoughts from you or anyone else concerning what Jesus said concerning forgiveness?

“Forgive us** as** we forgive…” implies that divine mercy and justice co-exist in a way no one could have imagined. If we are looking for perfection it is found in this simple prayer with its final request “Deliver us from evil”. If we are prepared to say that and mean it we have nothing to fear in this life or the next. We alone determine our destiny - just as our children determine theirs. That is God’s will and if we don’t trust the truth of the prayer He gave us we cannot be true Christians and underestimate the power He has shared with us. We cannot have it all for nothing.** Everything has its price and love is no exception…**

 

[tonyrey]

No I do not consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”.

I believe that it can be inferred from formal teachings that blasphemy of the Spirit is final impenitence. In other words, it is the obstinate refusal to acknowledge ones sins and ask for forgiveness.

Yet He allows us to sin.

Seems and is are often at odds. Since the Catechism is the work of the Church that Jesus started there is no need for trumping.

I believe we will be forgiven every sin we are sorry for committing.

:clapping: Irrefutable!

 

[tonyrey]

The words of Jesus quoted in Bible were passed down by people verbally and maybe sometimes in writing, but originally from those who actually heard him say them. Someone called Matthew wrote them down. The only thing church did was allow them to remain in the official version of the Bible. Changing the words themselves would have been too egregious a thing to do for anyone, including the church. But like I said, I suspect that the church exercised its editorial prerogative to leave out somethings.

The Church not only allowed the words to remain but also **selected **the Gospels in which they occur…

 

[openmind77]

Ok. Let’s stop right here.

How do you know that Matthew’s written account is correct, but that the Gospel of “The Sophia of Jesus Christ” is not?

earlychristianwritings.com/text/sophia.html

Well, the Church decided which books belong in the NT and which don’t.

So the fact that you believe that Matthew wrote the words of Christ means that you believe that the Church correctly discerned that Matthew’s words were correct.

But you only know this because you trust that the CC got it right.

Let’s say that there were some other early Christian texts that say Christ talked about souls going to hell eternally, but these are not included in the Bible…what would you say to that?

Thanks for the link. I had not read this, but I will now. I may find that believable and correct too if it matches other words of Jesus.

Like I said I trust most well meaning believers not to change the words of Jesus, just like I would trust a journalist writing in the NY Times not to change people’s quotes, but that does not mean I accept everything that the journalist or the NYTimes says.

So I think the church is totally wrong when it says sinners if they die unrepentant will spend eternity in hell without another chance.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Someone may want to start a new thread soon. Threads often get locked once they breach 1,000 messages.

 

[tonyrey]

Someone may want to start a new thread soon. Threads often get locked once they breach 1,000 messages.

There is a similar one already…

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for the link. I had not read this, but I will now. I may find that believable and correct too if it matches other words of Jesus.

Like I said I trust most well meaning believers not to change the words of Jesus, just like I would trust a journalist writing in the NY Times not to change people’s quotes, but that does not mean I accept everything that the journalist or the NYTimes says.

So I think the church is totally wrong when it says sinners if they die unrepentant will spend eternity in hell without another chance.

It must be rather uncomfortable sitting on a spiritual fence in a state of indecision…:frighten:

Isn’t it simpler to think “life is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing”? :jrbirdman:

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks for the link. I had not read this, but I will now. I may find that believable and correct too if it matches other words of Jesus.

Again, how do you know that the words of Jesus, which the Catholic Church preserved, are the correct ones, and the other ones, which the CC rejected, are incorrect?

For example, there is a narrative in which Jesus said this: " If thou be indeed a teacher and if thou knowest letters well, tell me the power of the Alpha and then will I tell thee the power of the Beta. And the teacher was provoked and smote him on the head. And the young child was hurt and cursed him, and straightway he fainted and fell to the ground on his face. 3 And the child returned unto the house of Joseph: and Joseph was grieved and commanded his mother, saying: Let him not forth without the door, for all they die that provoke him to wrath." gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

The CC rejected this text as not being inspired.

Like I said I trust most well meaning believers not to change the words of Jesus, just like I would trust a journalist writing in the NY Times not to change people’s quotes, but that does not mean I accept everything that the journalist or the NYTimes says.

Well, you have to have a master plan, or a model for which you know is true, in order to compare.

So, for example, if you know that Lagos is the former capital of Nigeria, and a journalist says, “When I was in Nigeria, I was in the capital city of Timbuktu” you know that he is not being truthful.

So what is your model for knowing whether Jesus said something to be true or not?

I’ll start a new thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12959700#post12959700

So I think the church is totally wrong when it says sinners if they die unrepentant will spend eternity in hell without another chance.

Based on what?

 

[openmind77]

Again, how do you know that the words of Jesus, which the Catholic Church preserved, are the correct ones, and the other ones, which the CC rejected, are incorrect?

For example, there is a narrative in which Jesus said this: " If thou be indeed a teacher and if thou knowest letters well, tell me the power of the Alpha and then will I tell thee the power of the Beta. And the teacher was provoked and smote him on the head. And the young child was hurt and cursed him, and straightway he fainted and fell to the ground on his face. 3 And the child returned unto the house of Joseph: and Joseph was grieved and commanded his mother, saying: Let him not forth without the door, for all they die that provoke him to wrath." gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

The CC rejected this text as not being inspired.

Well, you have to have a master plan, or a model for which you know is true, in order to compare.

So, for example, if you know that Lagos is the former capital of Nigeria, and a journalist says, “When I was in Nigeria, I was in the capital city of Timbuktu” you know that he is not being truthful.

So what is your model for knowing whether Jesus said something to be true or not?

I’ll start a new thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12959700#post12959700

Based on what?

I am confused - are you saying the Jesus’s words in Bible are not really truly his words? Or are you saying if I accept that Jesus’ words are true, I need to accept everything else besides Jesus’s words.

That is like saying if I believe a quote from Obama that a journalist printed then I need to accept everything else that journalist says? Your logic is really weird.

Like I said before, the words of Jesus in the Bible do not support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance.

 

[PRmerger]

I am confused - are you saying the Jesus’s words in Bible are not really truly his words? Or are you saying if I accept that Jesus’ words are true, I need to accept everything else besides Jesus’s words.

I am saying that I accept that Jesus’ words in the Bible are really, truly His Words for the same reason that you do:

because I trust in the authority of the CC, which told me that this is what He said.

I don’t think you’ve ever asked yourself the question: how do I know that Jesus said these words, unless I accept that the CC told me so?

You simply assumed, somehow, inexplicably, that the Bible fell out of heaven.

I’m just asking you to connect the dots.

It’s like if you were walking on a deserted island and found a watch. You wouldn’t just assume, “Wow! A watch! What time is it? It says it’s 3pm, so I guess it’s 3pm!”

You’d want to know where this watch came from, and if it’s accurate or not.

 

[openmind77]

I am saying that I accept that Jesus’ words in the Bible are really, truly His Words for the same reason that you do:

because I trust in the authority of the CC, which told me that this is what He said.

I don’t think you’ve ever asked yourself the question: how do I know that Jesus said these words, unless I accept that the CC told me so?

You simply assumed, somehow, inexplicably, that the Bible fell out of heaven.

I’m just asking you to connect the dots.

It’s like if you were walking on a deserted island and found a watch. You wouldn’t just assume, “Wow! A watch! What time is it? It says it’s 3pm, so I guess it’s 3pm!”

You’d want to know where this watch came from, and if it’s accurate or not.

Deserted island! Watch! Weird stuff!

There are still no words of Jesus that support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance. Please quote them if you find any,

 

[PRmerger]

Deserted island! Watch! Weird stuff!

I suppose there are some who would look at Hinduism and declare, “Weird stuff”.

Not me, though. I keep an…open mind.

However, the point remains: you need to consider how it is that you believe the Catholic Church got it right about the words of Jesus but got it wrong about everything else.

There are still no words of Jesus that support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance. Please quote them if you find any,

Well, Catholicism doesn’t glean its doctrines from a book, no matter how holy.

And using the words of Jesus (written in the 4 gospels) is as arbitrary a criterion as if you declared, “Well, I only use the words of Jesus written in the Gospel of Matthew to decide what hell is like”.

Why would you do that?

Answer: You’re right, PR. It’s an arbitrary distinction.

Similarly, saying, “I only use the words of Jesus written in the 4 Gospels to decide what hell is like” is also an arbitrary distinction.

 

[openmind77]

I suppose there are some who would look at Hinduism and declare, “Weird stuff”.

Not me, though. I keep an…open mind.

However, the point remains: you need to consider how it is that you believe the Catholic Church got it right about the words of Jesus but got it wrong about everything else.

Well, Catholicism doesn’t glean its doctrines from a book, no matter how holy.

And using the words of Jesus (written in the 4 gospels) is as arbitrary a criterion as if you declared, “Well, I only use the words of Jesus written in the Gospel of Matthew to decide what hell is like”.

Why would you do that?

Answer: You’re right, PR. It’s an arbitrary distinction.

Similarly, saying, “I only use the words of Jesus written in the 4 Gospels to decide what hell is like” is also an arbitrary distinction.

It does not matter whether the Church got anything right.

But there are still no words of Jesus (whether they are true or not) that support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance. Please quote them if you find any,

 

[inocente]

Jesus said something to the effect that ALL sins will be forgiven except “blasphemy of the Spirit”, would you consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”?

As far as I know, no one has ever figured out what “blasphemy of the Spirit” is, do you know just what it is?

It is one of my most fervent prayers that somehow God would keep ALL from that sin.

Seems as if what Jesus supposedly said and what the catechism says is at odds.

I believe that Jesus trumps the catechism.

Any thoughts from you or anyone else concerning what Jesus said concerning forgiveness?

In that passage (Matt 12), the Pharisees say only by the prince of demons can Jesus drive out demons, but Jesus says that cannot be, since if Satan drives out Satan, then Satan would be divided against himself.

Jesus says only the Spirit of God can drive out demons, yet the Pharisees call the Spirit Satan, and by doing so blaspheme against the Spirit.

They cannot be forgiven because by believing that God is Satan, they have cut themselves off from God. God still wants to forgive them, God always tries to forgive, but they can never accept it because they have cut themselves off.

Jesus says every other kind of sin and slander can be forgiven - normally it would be impossible for anyone (believer or atheist) to not be forgiven. Only by legalism and hypocrisy can someone convince himself that God is Satan, and so cut himself off from God, and so never be able to be forgiven (c.f. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”)

 

[tonyrey]

In that passage (Matt 12), the Pharisees say only by the prince of demons can Jesus drive out demons, but Jesus says that cannot be, since if Satan drives out Satan, then Satan would be divided against himself.

Jesus says only the Spirit of God can drive out demons, yet the Pharisees call the Spirit Satan, and by doing so blaspheme against the Spirit.

They cannot be forgiven because by believing that God is Satan, they have cut themselves off from God. God still wants to forgive them, God always tries to forgive, but they can never accept it because they have cut themselves off.

Jesus says every other kind of sin and slander can be forgiven - normally it would be impossible for anyone (believer or atheist) to not be forgiven. Only by legalism and hypocrisy can someone convince himself that God is Satan, and so cut himself off from God, and so never be able to be forgiven (c.f. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”)

:clapping: It is amazing how some people reject the reality of evil - **as if no one is to blame for the horrific amount of needless suffering and gross injustice in the world. **There is only one word to describe it: diabolical…

 

[tonyrey]

It does not matter whether the Church got anything right.

But there are still no words of Jesus (whether they are true or not) that support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance. Please quote them if you find any,

Everyone has a multitude of opportunities to repent when they die. God is both just and merciful.

 

[PRmerger]

But there are still no words of Jesus (whether they are true or not) that support the

 

[PRmerger]

But there are still no words of Jesus (whether they are true or not) that support the belief that an unrepentant sinner is sent to hell for eternity without another chance. Please quote them if you find any,

We do not use the words of Jesus Only to gather our understanding about Hell.

Just like we wouldn’t use the words of

-Jesus Only That Are Written In Matthew
-Jesus Only After He Resurrected
-Paul Only
-John Only
-Moses Only
-Jesus ONLY That Start with “Amen! Amen! I say to you…”
-Jesus ONLY While He Was On The Cross

#arbitrary
#wetaketheWordofGodinitsentirety

 

[PRmerger]

It does not matter whether the Church got anything right.

Then you have no credibility when you offer any support for your arguments with, “Jesus said…” or “Jesus wouldn’t”.

All we have to do is say, “But you don’t even believe that Jesus said this yourself!”

Imagine if your wife came to you and said, “Mrs. Caltigaroni, our neighbor, said that President Obama isn’t even American! So I’m going to start a campaign to get him impeached!”

You know that your wife thinks Mrs. C is a bozo and doesn’t get anything right.

So it’s rather peculiar that she would base an entire campaign on something she knows to come from an unreliable source, right?