The Fear of Hell

[ProdglArchitect]

To my understanding hell is not a place of torture.

I don’t know where you heard this, but there is not a single piece of scripture to support it. Every time the reality of Hell is mentioned in scripture it is presented as a place of intense, eternal suffering, with gnawing and gnashing of teeth. Eternal darkness, eternal fire, eternal emptiness. The people in Hell are not happy; they are consumed with themselves, but that is not happiness. God’s presence is entirely absent in Hell; since happiness comes from God, it’s impossible for there to be happiness in Hell.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I still can’t imagine how anyone overwhelmed by the Beatific Vision of God in all His glory and perfection could possibly choose to reject His infinite love.

This is a very interesting question.

It is a difficult thing to imagine, as you say.

If the angels at their creation did not have the Beatific Vision, how would they have earned it? I suppose by accepting the will of God or refusing to accept it. That was the same test put to Adam and Eve. Satan and his fellow travelers chose not to accept. So perhaps they did not really know what they were giving up since they had yet to experience it. The same could be said of Adam and Eve. Presuming that they too had not yet had the Beatific Vision, they acted in blindness of what they were giving up.

We today act in the same blindness, because we have not seen what cannot be seen until we deserve to see it.

So the position you have taken seems the reasonable one to take. What fool having seen the Face of God would choose to turn his back on that Face?

But then … there is Judas!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

All I’m saying is that those in hell experience happiness in their own way.

This is surely a comforting thought to all the atheists in the world … if they are at all conflicted.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This is a very interesting question.

It is a difficult thing to imagine, as you say.

If the angels at their creation did not have the Beatific Vision, how would they have earned it? I suppose by accepting the will of God or refusing to accept it. That was the same test put to Adam and Eve. Satan and his fellow travelers chose not to accept. So perhaps they did not really know what they were giving up since they had yet to experience it. The same could be said of Adam and Eve. Presuming that they too had not yet had the Beatific Vision, they acted in blindness of what they were giving up.

We today act in the same blindness, because we have not seen what cannot be seen until we deserve to see it.

So the position you have taken seems the reasonable one to take. What fool having seen the Face of God would choose to turn his back on that Face?

But then … there is Judas!

I don’t think you can assume they didn’t have the beatific vision. They were created in the presence of God, and since the beatific visions is the state of being the presence of God, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that they had the Beatific Vision when they made their decision.

Beyond that, we also teach that they had full understanding of what their decision would mean, which would require that they had knowledge of both the Beatific Vision and Hell. Even if they didn’t actually have the beatific vision, they had knowledge of what it would be if they accepted Him.

 

[tonyrey]

To my understanding hell is not a place of torture. All who end up there are just as happy as those in heaven. Now I’m not saying heaven and hell are one and the same. In fact they are quite different, but so are people. I will repeat the most important point that others have mentioned here which is that God’s meaning of Love is freedom and that God does not force himself down the throats of those who don’t want Him. We shape our destinies in a way we find attractive and in the end all will be satisfied.

Hell is certainly not a **place **of torture: those who have tortured and murdered others do not escape scot free. If they did there would be no difference between the fate of those who sacrifice themselves for others and those who commit atrocities. Divine justice would be a fantasy. It is more reasonable to believe that even in this life we are tormented by vices like pride, the lust for power and selfishness. Those who are in hell get what they want but getting what they want never satisfies them. It is a vicious spiral: the more they have the more they want and the more they have the more frustrated they become. Only God can fully satisfy the desire for perfection.

 

[tonyrey]

This is a very interesting question.

It is a difficult thing to imagine, as you say.

If the angels at their creation did not have the Beatific Vision, how would they have earned it? I suppose by accepting the will of God or refusing to accept it. That was the same test put to Adam and Eve. Satan and his fellow travelers chose not to accept. So perhaps they did not really know what they were giving up since they had yet to experience it. The same could be said of Adam and Eve. Presuming that they too had not yet had the Beatific Vision, they acted in blindness of what they were giving up.

We today act in the same blindness, because we have not seen what cannot be seen until we deserve to see it.

So the position you have taken seems the reasonable one to take. What fool having seen the Face of God would choose to turn his back on that Face?

But then … there is Judas!

Judas was a traitor but I don’t believe He made a cold-blooded decision to reject Jesus. He was disillusioned when Jesus told the apostles He was going to be condemned to death by the Sanhedrin and executed. Peter had already been tempted and reprimanded by Our Lord with the words "“Get behind me, Satan!” So it is likely Judas too was tempted and became possessed. It would be strange if Satan played no further part in the Passion after having tempted Jesus to throw Himself down from the Temple. The power of evil is evident in the behaviour of Herod, Pilate, the crowd and the Roman soldiers all of whom contributed in some way to the torture and murder of an innocent man who had done nothing but good and brought hope to the afflicted and the oppressed. Judas was by no means the worst sinner because he was the only one who realised what he had done, admitted he had “betrayed innocent blood” and killed himself in despair. He had committed a terrible crime but we are all subject to temptation and certainly not entitled to condemn him as beyond redemption. Those who have carefully planned and implemented the systematic genocide of millions of men, women and children for ideological reasons are in my view far more likely to be in hell but we don’t know to what extent they were misguided or whether they have repented. It is not for us to judge anyone - including ourselves however guilty we feel.

 

[openmind77]

I’d like to ponder that.

Are there no sane persons in hell?

Is Satan completely mad … not in the sense of angry, but in the sense of unhinged?

Tom, it seems, would have us believe we need not fear hell because it is not forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Yet Jesus tells us it is eternal. He does not ask if hell is eternal. He knows it is, and unless we believe Jesus lies, we have to believe him.

Whom am I to believe … Tom or Jesus?

Am I to fear hell or not to fear hell because it is ultimately just another deferred pathway to heaven?

Actually I don’t believe that Jesus ever said that unrepentant sinners would be sent to hell for eternity. All he ever said was that the fires of hell are eternal - that is probably true, but that does not mean that anyone needs to be there for eternity.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Judas was a traitor but I don’t believe He made a cold-blooded decision to reject Jesus. He was disillusioned when Jesus told the apostles He was going to be condemned to death by the Sanhedrin and executed. Peter had already been tempted and reprimanded by Our Lord with the words "“Get behind me, Satan!” So it is likely Judas too was tempted and became possessed. It would be strange if Satan played no further part in the Passion after having tempted Jesus to throw Himself down from the Temple. The power of evil is evident in the behaviour of Herod, Pilate, the crowd and the Roman soldiers all of whom contributed in some way to the torture and murder of an innocent man who had done nothing but good and brought hope to the afflicted and the oppressed. Judas was by no means the worst sinner because he was the only one who realised what he had done, admitted he had “betrayed innocent blood” and killed himself in despair. He had committed a terrible crime but we are all subject to temptation and certainly not entitled to condemn him as beyond redemption. Those who have carefully planned and implemented the systematic genocide of millions of men, women and children for ideological reasons are in my view far more likely to be in hell but we don’t know to what extent they were misguided or whether they have repented. It is not for us to judge anyone - including ourselves however guilty we feel.

You really are out of line here!

I did not judge Judas, even if I would not want to be in his shoes right now.

He saw the face of God in Jesus and turned his back on that Face when he sold it for 30 pieces of silver.

Try not to put uncharitable words in my mouth … PLEASE!!!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Actually I don’t believe that Jesus ever said that unrepentant sinners would be sent to hell for eternity. All he ever said was that the fires of hell are eternal - that is probably true, but that does not mean that anyone needs to be there for eternity.

Try to be logical.

Why would the fires of hell be eternal if ultimately there is no one in hell?

 

[openmind77]

Try to be logical.

Why would the fires of hell be eternal if ultimately there is no one in hell?

Why should there be no one is hell? New people die and enter hell all the time. They just don’t stay there for eternity.

 

[davidv]

Why should there be no one is hell? New people die and enter hell all the time. They just don’t stay there for eternity.

Can you cite official Church teaching that states this?

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

This states that those in hell are in a state of eternal separation from God.

 

[openmind77]

Can you cite official Church teaching that states this?
This states that those in hell are in a state of eternal separation from God.

I was not talking about official Church teachings at all.

I was just talking about Jesus’s own words as quoted in the Gospels - he says that the fires of hell are eternal. He does not say that anyone who sins will be sent there for eternity.

 

[davidv]

I was not talking about official Church teachings at all.

I was just talking about Jesus’s own words as quoted in the Gospels - he says that the fires of hell are eternal. He does not say that anyone who sins will be sent there for eternity.

Any interpretation of Jesus’s words that is contrary to Church teaching is a false interpretation.

 

[PRmerger]

I was not talking about official Church teachings at all.

I was just talking about Jesus’s own words as quoted in the Gospels - he says that the fires of hell are eternal. He does not say that anyone who sins will be sent there for eternity.

You are aware that Catholicism does not use Jesus’ Words Only as the source of our doctrines, yes?

 

[openmind77]

Any interpretation of Jesus’s words that is contrary to Church teaching is a false interpretation.

I don’t follow any Church or person. I interpret what I read for myself.

If you prefer to let someone else interpret Jesus’s words for you, that is your choice.

In a couple of years the Christ himself will be returning to earth, then we will know for sure what is the truth.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t follow any Church or person. I interpret what I read for myself.

If you prefer to let someone else interpret Jesus’s words for you, that is your choice.

In a couple of years the Christ himself will be returning to earth, then we will know for sure what is the truth.

Well, you actually do follow the Church, openmind, each and every time you quote Jesus as saying something.

For it is through the CC, and ONLY through the CC, that you even know what Jesus said.

 

[openmind77]

You are aware that Catholicism does not use Jesus’ Words Only as the source of our doctrines, yes?

Yes I am aware of that. It would have been so much better if they did. It is so easy to make mistakes. But as I said earlier, the Christ will be back pretty soon, then all errors will be corrected.

 

[openmind77]

Well, you actually do follow the Church, openmind, each and every time you quote Jesus as saying something.

For it is through the CC, and ONLY through the CC, that you even know what Jesus said.

Hopefully they did not misquote Jesus. BTW many other Christians will be very upset to hear that Jesus’s words are exclusive to the CC.

Nevertheless, if anyone adds anything to what Jesus said, I feel quite free to accept or reject it.

 

[PRmerger]

Hopefully they did not misquote Jesus. BTW many other Christians will be very upset to hear that Jesus’s words are exclusive to the CC.

Well, you now have an apologetics argument you can use with these non-Catholic Christians.

You can point out that it is ONLY through the CC that they know what Jesus said.

And they will not be able to refute you. All they will be able to say is, “You are absolutely right! There is no other way, is there, for me to know what Jesus said, except by deferring to the authority of the CC”.

 

[PRmerger]

But as I said earlier, the Christ will be back pretty soon, then all errors will be corrected.

How do you know He will be back “pretty soon”, and how do you know that “all errors will be corrected” then?