The Fear of Hell

[Aloysium]

Do you really think that “full knowledge” can not come in less than an instant?

One could spend eternity gazing into the face of God and not fully know Him,
but I’m pretty sure “full Knowledge” of His being and nature would come in an instant;
unless of course one wants to quibble about the meaning of the term.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . if we only have this very short human lifespan to make these important choices, then our free will would be temporary and very limited.

:twocents: In addition to spirit, the unity which we are, is composed of elements that make up this world, including time. We determine who we are, through our actions while in life. What the angels decided in an instant, we do stretched out in time. When we die, we are dead in the sense that we leave this world behind and what has been done, has been done. Faith teaches that we continue to participate in the lives of those we love and that we are in the presence of God. There will be a final resurrection. Free will in the sense of our having the capacity to do good or evil, does appear to be indeed temporary and limited. It is therefore essential that one choose wisely. There are some who would have you believe otherwise, but as has been revealed, it is important to grow in love while you have the chance.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Are you saying that ALL mortal sins are “blasphemy against the Spirit”?

Do you know just what “eternal” means?

Do you know if “eternal” will be around for ever?

It is a bankrupt strategy to answer questions with more questions.

Jesus does not deceive us when he tells us that hell is eternal.

Is the truthfulness of Jesus a problem for you?

I know what eternal means. It means forever. Do you have another definition in your dictionary?

I really don’t expect you any more to answer my questions except by asking other questions.

Which will be further evidence of how bankrupt your strategy is.

 

[GEddie]

A friend’s father was taking out the trash. He slipped while doing so and got up. A neighbor asked if he were okay and he said he was and was going to rest for a while. Several days later his wife returned from out of town to find him in bed with signs of decomposition and i ended up being the one that called people in various countries to notify his mother, siblings, daughter, and so on. I suspect he didn’t realize he would not be getting up from his rest

That does happen, more often than generally known, with head trauma. Most recently, to a female celebrity who cracked her head while skiing; because she got up and conversed with others, it was not known in time how badly broken she was.

Just shows how flimsy we all are; the border between us and the afterlife is no thicker than the thinnest blood-vessel in our heads.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[tonyrey]

In response to, “Do you think that us mere mortals here on earth should be totally unconcerned if someone was in “self-inflicted” torture here on earth?”

Seems that there are those that are in mental institutions, other care facilities and on medications, that were in ““self-inflicted” torture”, that not everyone considered a “waste” of “further time and energy”.

There is a vast difference between this life and the next - and the issue is what happens to those who are responsible for their behaviour.

I consider that two of the most important things that I have learned in this life were learned in second grade and one of them was, “We are ALL equal in God’s Eyes”.

Who is the “more deserving of our help”, the one who can “afford” it or the one who needs it most?
When more than one needs help, quite often it does not boil down to who is “more deserving of our help”, it boils down to they just plain need help.

In the end it is a question of what we choose of our own free will. It is misguided to think all evil can be eliminated by helping people - as if it’s a curable disease.

Just seems kind of strange that heaven would make us more hard-hearted and less caring, doesn’t it to anyone else?

It it not a question of being hard-hearted but accepting the reality of diabolical evil. Is Satan a myth?

I don’t think that Jesus made a mistake in the “parable of the sheep and the goats” but we may have.

How? Are his words obscure?

I also do not think that Jesus made a mistake in taking ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross and as I said, “I do NOT think that God has created anyone that is beyond the “cleaning-up” ability, so to speak, of God”.

Is Satan beyond God’s “cleaning-up” ability? Or do you believe he will finish up in heaven?

You wrote this in response to, “Could be why God came up with a Plan even before creation and why going to the cross was/is such a central part of God’s Plan”.

It may imply that “Jesus was wrong” to you but it could also “imply” that when we think that we know it all, we don’t.

That argument is a two-edged sword and has led to more than forty thousand Christian sects…

 

[tonyrey]

Even though it might not be the bible or theology, have you ever heard of the “hound of heaven”?

I do not know much about the “hound of heaven” but I do really believe that God knows more than us.

According to that argument it seems hell doesn’t exist!

You wrote, ““could” is the key word”, I agree, isn’t it nice that God gave us the ability to “hope” when many tell us that to hope is impossible and I already pointed out what Jesus said about “impossible”.

Does that necessarily imply that everyone goes to heaven?

I wrote something about the “sheep and the goats”, did you see that?

I asked, "Doesn’t it seem that no one is a “total sheep” and no one is a “total goat” but that ALL of us seem to be a mixture of goat and sheep, any thoughts on that?

Jesus didn’t make that distinction. Do you think He misguided us?

Or could be that God took ALL sins upon Himself for a reason other than a “tie” with satan.

He took all sins upon Himself so that we all have the opportunity of going to heaven. He never said we are** compelled** to love Him. All His teaching implies that we have a choice, not that He will override our choice.

Could be that Jesus went to hell, not just the abode of the good dead, and that is at least part of the reason that Jesus said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.

Those words referred to the Church not the entire human race.

Could be that I am NOT the one underestimating the “power” that God gave us.

Seems that there are those that think that the only “power” that God gave us is the power to put ourself in hell.

Maybe since Jesus died for us, one of the “powers” that God gave us is to be able to die for others.

I have never said that hell doesn’t exist, I HAVE said that I do not believe in some people’s “conception” of hell.

I believe Jesus and I also believe that we do NOT know everything.

So you do know that all of the “over forty thousand Christian denominations” do “disagree with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church”?

You wrote this in response to, “Maybe I should follow Jesus the way the I think/believe that I should follow Jesus rather than the way others think I should follow Jesus”.

I would rather honestly follow Jesus the way that I believe that God wants me to follow Jesus than the way that others think/believe that I should follow Jesus, it is that simple.

No one has questioned your right to choose what to believe but it doesn’t follow that you cannot be misguided.

Jesus said, “I AM the Vine, you are the branches”, He did not say, ‘I AM the Vine, you are the branch’.

Those weren’t the words He used to the Pharisees! He also said:

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

 

[tonyrey]

:twocents: In addition to spirit, the unity which we are, is composed of elements that make up this world, including time. We determine who we are, through our actions while in life. What the angels decided in an instant, we do stretched out in time. When we die, we are dead in the sense that we leave this world behind and what has been done, has been done. Faith teaches that we continue to participate in the lives of those we love and that we are in the presence of God. There will be a final resurrection. Free will in the sense of our having the capacity to do good or evil, does appear to be indeed temporary and limited. It is therefore essential that one choose wisely. There are some who would have you believe otherwise, but as has been revealed, it is important to grow in love while you have the chance.

If we lose our free will when we die we shall be incapable of love…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

If we lose our free will when we die we shall be incapable of love…

When we arrive at our final destination we will have freely chosen it, but it seems we will not be able to freely un-choose it if eternal means forever. We can, in the case of hell, freely choose to regret our choice, as in the case of heaven we can freely choose to rejoice in our choice.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is a bankrupt strategy to answer questions with more questions.

Are you saying that Jesus is bankrupt since Jesus answered many a question with a question?

Jesus does not deceive us when he tells us that hell is eternal.

As I asked, is eternal for ever? Will God swallow up eternity in time?

Is the truthfulness of Jesus a problem for you?

Just because Jesus spoke the “truth”, does not mean that we understand the “truth”.

I know what eternal means. It means forever. Do you have another definition in your dictionary?

Seems to me that time could be for ever or have an end.

I believe that time had a beginning since I believe that time is a “part” of God’s creation.

However, we speak of God “living in eternity” in that God lives in a place, so to speak, that has no beginning and was NOT created.

I can think of ways to think of “eternity” but I do not have an iron-clad definition of eternity.

I really don’t expect you any more to answer my questions except by asking other questions.

I believe that God wishes us to think, not just to repeat what other people say.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that Jesus spoke in this way.

From what I have heard, it is a very “Jewish” way of dialoguing.

Which will be further evidence of how bankrupt your strategy is.

I have no “strategy”, I wasn’t even asked to speak, per se, but when I was told in a dream that “only I could say it”, I took that as a cue, even if I didn’t know what the it was in “only I could say it”.

Actually, Jesus asked us to NOT have a strategy but to rely on the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tom_Baum]

There is a vast difference between this life and the next - and the issue is what happens to those who are responsible for their behaviour.

I would think that there “is a vast difference between this life and the next” and “what happens to those who are responsible for their behavior” is in God’s Hands, so to speak, sure hoping that God is better than us.

It seems sad, infinitely past sad, that as bad as this world can be that the world to come is infinitely worse for some and for the others to not care how infinitely worse it is for them.

In the end it is a question of what we choose of our own free will. It is misguided to think all evil can be eliminated by helping people - as if it’s a curable disease.

Seems to me that God might have thought, so to speak, that evil is “a curable disease” by doing what God did on the cross.

It it not a question of being hard-hearted but accepting the reality of diabolical evil. Is Satan a myth?

I have met satan, I know that he is not a myth and I believe that satan is no match for God.

I also believe that God has already crushed satan and all of satan’s power by God’s work on the cross, but that God has not yet exerted God’s Authority.

How? Are his words obscure?

I have already mentioned some things to think about concerning these verses and I will also mention that these verses are not the whole bible.

Is Satan beyond God’s “cleaning-up” ability? Or do you believe he will finish up in heaven?

I do NOT believe that satan is “beyond God’s “cleaning-up” ability” and as far as where satan might end up, is up to God.

satan just might end up non-existent or not.

There is plenty that I don’t know and believe it or not, there is plenty that plenty do not know.

That argument is a two-edged sword and has led to more than forty thousand Christian sects…

Since God “knew” about this before the “fact”, maybe there are reasons other than the “reason” that many think the “reason” to be.

 

[Aloysium]

If we lose our free will when we die we shall be incapable of love…

Depends on what is meant by free will.

:twocents:

Having chosen love,
giving ourselves to God our Father,
becoming Christ-like.
a shoot on the one true Vine,
we would be
In our very being,
in every act,
love,
incapable of sin.

Here we choose to love God or not.
Once our choice is made,
that is what we will do eternally.

 

[tonyrey]

I would think that there “is a vast difference between this life and the next” and “what happens to those who are responsible for their behavior” is in God’s Hands, so to speak, sure hoping that God is better than us.

It seems sad, infinitely past sad, that as bad as this world can be that the world to come is infinitely worse for some and for the others to not care how infinitely worse it is for them.

Seems to me that God might have thought, so to speak, that evil is “a curable disease” by doing what God did on the cross.

I have met satan, I know that he is not a myth and I believe that satan is no match for God.

I also believe that God has already crushed satan and all of satan’s power by God’s work on the cross, but that God has not yet exerted God’s Authority.

What does God has crushed Satan mean exactly? Doesn’t he exist?

I have already mentioned some things to think about concerning these verses and I will also mention that these verses are not the whole bible.

I do NOT believe that satan is “beyond God’s “cleaning-up” ability” and as far as where satan might end up, is up to God.

satan just might end up non-existent or not.

There is plenty that I don’t know and believe it or not, there is plenty that plenty do not know.

Since God “knew” about this before the “fact”, maybe there are reasons other than the “reason” that many think the “reason” to be.

Your post leads to the conclusion that no one knows anything about hell in spite of the Church’s teaching:

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

 

[Tom_Baum]

According to that argument it seems hell doesn’t exist!

That could very well be, like I told you, I know very little about the “hound of heaven” but isn’t it about God not giving up on us?

Does that necessarily imply that everyone goes to heaven?

Actually, what it implies is what Jesus said to the Apostle concerning Salvation, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”.

Jesus didn’t make that distinction. Do you think He misguided us?

I believe that Jesus gave us “parables” to make us think.

Could be that it isn’t Jesus that is misguiding us but that it is us misguiding us.

He took all sins upon Himself so that we all have the opportunity of going to heaven. He never said we are** compelled** to love Him. All His teaching implies that we have a choice, not that He will override our choice.

Just because you can not seem to think/believe that God is capable of convincing, as opposed to “compelling”, doesn’t mean that God is incapable.

Those words referred to the Church not the entire human race.

Those words being, “Could be that Jesus went to hell, not just the abode of the good dead, and that is at least part of the reason that Jesus said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.”

I believe that in these words, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, Jesus is telling us that His Church has a mission and these words are His Church’s mission.

The power of the “netherworld” and the "netherworld have been CRUSHED, just as it was spoken of in Genesis.

No one has questioned your right to choose what to believe but it doesn’t follow that you cannot be misguided.

Time will tell.

Those weren’t the words He used to the Pharisees! He also said:

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”

Some more words that are not the whole bible.

Doesn’t it also say something, somewhere, about being burnt up and only something being left?

Could this be “the Image and Likeness” spoken of as being all that is left?

 

[tonyrey]

Depends on what is meant by free will.

:twocents:

Having chosen love,
giving ourselves to God our Father,
becoming Christ-like.
a shoot on the one true Vine,
we would be
In our very being,
in every act,
love,
incapable of sin.

Here we choose to love God or not.
Once our choice is made,
that is what we will do eternally.

This implies that Satan cannot have been in heaven…

 

[tonyrey]

That could very well be, like I told you, I know very little about the “hound of heaven” but isn’t it about God not giving up on us?

Actually, what it implies is what Jesus said to the Apostle concerning Salvation, “With man it is impossible, with God ALL things are possible”.

God doesn’t give up on us but that doesn’t prevent us from giving up God - unless you believe Might is Right and we are compelled to love Him.

I believe that Jesus gave us “parables” to make us think.

Could be that it isn’t Jesus that is misguiding us but that it is us misguiding us.

His words about Hell are clear enough and were spoken more than forty times. If that isn’t enough what is?

Just because you can not seem to think/believe that God is capable of convincing, as opposed to “compelling”, doesn’t mean that God is incapable.

God is not incapable but neither is He inconsistent. Why does He give us free will if we all end up in heaven? Why doesn’t He convince us in the first place? Why doesn’t He prevent all the suffering in the world if He can convince everyone that it is wrong to disobey Him?

Those words being, “Could be that Jesus went to hell, not just the abode of the good dead, and that is at least part of the reason that Jesus said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.”

I believe that in these words, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, Jesus is telling us that His Church has a mission and these words are His Church’s mission.

The power of the “netherworld” and the "netherworld have been CRUSHED, just as it was spoken of in Genesis.

Time will tell.

Some more words that are not the whole bible.

That objection can be used to all the words you have used…

Doesn’t it also say something, somewhere, about being burnt up and only something being left?

Could this be “the Image and Likeness” spoken of as being all that is left?

That is certainly not the Church’s teaching.

 

[tonyrey]

When we arrive at our final destination we will have freely chosen it, but it seems we will not be able to freely un-choose it if eternal means forever. We can, in the case of hell, freely choose to regret our choice, as in the case of heaven we can freely choose to rejoice in our choice.

“not be able to freely un-choose” = “not to be able to choose”. Two negatives make a positive, Charlie. It also suggests that Satan wasn’t in heaven.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Are you saying that Jesus is bankrupt since Jesus answered many a question with a question?

No, that was Socrates.

Jesus answered many questions with parables, not questions.

You have yet to supply a parable about your views on hell as opposed to the views of Jesus.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

“not be able to freely un-choose” = “not to be able to choose”. Two negatives make a positive, Charlie. It also suggests that Satan wasn’t in heaven.

Satan had no choice about being in heaven any more than Adam and Eve had a choice about the Garden of Eden.

But they still had the free will to choose to leave both places … and they did.

 

[tonyrey]

Satan had no choice about being in heaven any more than Adam and Eve had a choice about the Garden of Eden.

But they still had the free will to choose to leave both places … and they did.

I’m perplexed…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’m perplexed…

You’re not the only one.