The Fear of Hell

[tonyrey]

You’re not the only one.

If they had no choice, Charlie, how could they be free to choose?

 

[tonyrey]

You’re not the only one.

The difficulty is that if everything was perfect in Eden, and even more so in heaven, how could anyone choose to leave? I think the Catechism view that the language is figurative is correct because Eden wasn’t a paradise on earth:

**385 **God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures…

Nor was Satan in heaven. He isn’t described as being in God’s presence. In neither case were there eye witnesses!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Nor was Satan in heaven. He isn’t described as being in God’s presence. In neither case were there eye witnesses!

Revelation 12:7-12

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[tonyrey]

Revelation 12:7-12

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I can’t imagine war in heaven, can you? It sounds more like hell where there is conflict and hatred rather than harmony and love… I don’t think an apocalyptical book is intended to be taken literally.

 

[Tom_Baum]

No, that was Socrates.

Jesus answered many questions with parables, not questions.

You have yet to supply a parable about your views on hell as opposed to the views of Jesus.

“Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.

Jesus had many ways of speaking and I believe that Jesus’s parables were meant to be thought-provoking and I think that when Jesus answered questions with questions, these were also meant to be thought provoking.

Concerning “my views on hell”, I don’t have a parable but wouldn’t that be about salvation, even though I don’t have a parable, Jesus does, which was Jesus’s answer to the Apostles concerning, “Who can be saved?”, when Jesus said, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

I believe that God has allowed us to make our own hell and that God has come up with this idea for a very Godly reason.

No matter what some people’s idea of just what hell is, many seem to think that there is no Godly reason for hell unless one thinks that one, another one that is, is to be in agony without end is a gift from God.

There are those that say that being in hell, in agony beyond comprehension, without an end to this agony is better than to be “unexisted”.

Without a doubt, these people do NOT have a clue about hell to think this.

I believe that God asked us to be unlimited in our forgiveness and that God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than God, pretty simple belief, but it seems that there are quite a few who don’t have it.

The old saying, “God created us in His Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”, seems more true the longer I see some of the “conceptions” of God that people have.

The “fact” that God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being a mere attribute of God, very much influences my “thoughts” concerning God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I can’t imagine war in heaven, can you? It sounds more like hell where there is conflict and hatred rather than harmony and love… I don’t think an apocalyptical book is intended to be taken literally.

Probably not literally, but it’s great fun trying to figure out how it is to be taken.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

“Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.

Jesus had many ways of speaking and I believe that Jesus’s parables were meant to be thought-provoking and I think that when Jesus answered questions with questions, these were also meant to be thought provoking.

Concerning “my views on hell”, I don’t have a parable but wouldn’t that be about salvation, even though I don’t have a parable, Jesus does, which was Jesus’s answer to the Apostles concerning, “Who can be saved?”, when Jesus said, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

I believe that God has allowed us to make our own hell and that God has come up with this idea for a very Godly reason.

No matter what some people’s idea of just what hell is, many seem to think that there is no Godly reason for hell unless one thinks that one, another one that is, is to be in agony without end is a gift from God.

There are those that say that being in hell, in agony beyond comprehension, without an end to this agony is better than to be “unexisted”.

Without a doubt, these people do NOT have a clue about hell to think this.

I believe that God asked us to be unlimited in our forgiveness and that God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than God, pretty simple belief, but it seems that there are quite a few who don’t have it.

The old saying, “God created us in His Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”, seems more true the longer I see some of the “conceptions” of God that people have.

The “fact” that God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being a mere attribute of God, very much influences my “thoughts” concerning God.

Well, apparently you are in the process of writing your own scriptures and catechism.

Good luck with that. I doubt you will get much support from the Bible or the CCC or the words coming from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Well, apparently you are in the process of writing your own scriptures and catechism.

Good luck with that. I doubt you will get much support from the Bible or the CCC or the words coming from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

These words, " “Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.", don’t look familiar?

As I said, Jesus spoke many ways and Jesus said many things.

Nothing wrong with pondering, it is a God-given ability.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

These words, " “Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.", don’t look familiar?

As I said, Jesus spoke many ways and Jesus said many things.

Nothing wrong with pondering, it is a God-given ability.

Pondering is good. Everybody should ponder the sayings of Jesus.

 

[tonyrey]

“Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.

Jesus had many ways of speaking and I believe that Jesus’s parables were meant to be thought-provoking and I think that when Jesus answered questions with questions, these were also meant to be thought provoking.

Concerning “my views on hell”, I don’t have a parable but wouldn’t that be about salvation, even though I don’t have a parable, Jesus does, which was Jesus’s answer to the Apostles concerning, “Who can be saved?”, when Jesus said, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

I believe that God has allowed us to make our own hell and that God has come up with this idea for a very Godly reason.

No matter what some people’s idea of just what hell is, many seem to think that there is no Godly reason for hell unless one thinks that one, another one that is, is to be in agony without end is a gift from God.

There are those that say that being in hell, in agony beyond comprehension, without an end to this agony is better than to be “unexisted”.

Without a doubt, these people do NOT have a clue about hell to think this.

I believe that God asked us to be unlimited in our forgiveness and that God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than God, pretty simple belief, but it seems that there are quite a few who don’t have it.

The old saying, “God created us in His Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”, seems more true the longer I see some of the “conceptions” of God that people have.

The “fact” that God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being a mere attribute of God, very much influences my “thoughts” concerning God.

The horrific amount of suffering in this world is due to the absence of love and compassion. There is no reason to believe everyone will be transformed into saints against their will…

 

[tonyrey]

Probably not literally, but it’s great fun trying to figure out how it is to be taken.

One thing’s for sure. It can’t be fun in hell…

There must be some pleasure and satisfaction but certainly not joy and freedom. No sane person would opt for sheer misery.

 

[tonyrey]

“Jesus by who’s authority are you doing these things?”

“Answer me, is what John doing from man or from God?”

"If we say from man, then…, if we say from God then something else…, so our answer is “we don’t know”.

“Then neither will I tell you by whose authority, I do what I do”.

Jesus had many ways of speaking and I believe that Jesus’s parables were meant to be thought-provoking and I think that when Jesus answered questions with questions, these were also meant to be thought provoking.

Concerning “my views on hell”, I don’t have a parable but wouldn’t that be about salvation, even though I don’t have a parable, Jesus does, which was Jesus’s answer to the Apostles concerning, “Who can be saved?”, when Jesus said, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

I believe that God has allowed us to make our own hell and that God has come up with this idea for a very Godly reason.

No matter what some people’s idea of just what hell is, many seem to think that there is no Godly reason for hell unless one thinks that one, another one that is, is to be in agony without end is a gift from God.

There are those that say that being in hell, in agony beyond comprehension, without an end to this agony is better than to be “unexisted”.

Without a doubt, these people do NOT have a clue about hell to think this.

I believe that God asked us to be unlimited in our forgiveness and that God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than God, pretty simple belief, but it seems that there are quite a few who don’t have it.

The old saying, “God created us in His Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”, seems more true the longer I see some of the “conceptions” of God that people have.

The “fact” that God Is a Being of Love, as opposed to Love being a mere attribute of God, very much influences my “thoughts” concerning God.

The key words are “God has allowed us to make our own hell”. He respects our freedom because otherwise we are incapable of real love.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

One thing’s for sure. It can’t be fun in hell…

There must be some pleasure and satisfaction but certainly not joy and freedom. No sane person would opt for sheer misery.

I’d like to ponder that.

Are there no sane persons in hell?

Is Satan completely mad … not in the sense of angry, but in the sense of unhinged?

Tom, it seems, would have us believe we need not fear hell because it is not forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Yet Jesus tells us it is eternal. He does not ask if hell is eternal. He knows it is, and unless we believe Jesus lies, we have to believe him.

Whom am I to believe … Tom or Jesus?

Am I to fear hell or not to fear hell because it is ultimately just another deferred pathway to heaven?

 

[black_sphere]

To my understanding hell is not a place of torture. All who end up there are just as happy as those in heaven. Now I’m not saying heaven and hell are one and the same. In fact they are quite different, but so are people. I will repeat the most important point that others have mentioned here which is that God’s meaning of Love is freedom and that God does not force himself down the throats of those who don’t want Him. We shape our destinies in a way we find attractive and in the end all will be satisfied.

 

[PRmerger]

To my understanding hell is not a place of torture. All who end up there are just as happy as those in heaven.

This is absolutely not correct.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

To my understanding hell is not a place of torture. All who end up there are just as happy as those in heaven.

Where did you get this understanding? Certainly not from the Bible or the Catechism.

 

[Aloysium]

I can’t imagine war in heaven, can you? It sounds more like hell where there is conflict and hatred rather than harmony and love… I don’t think an apocalyptical book is intended to be taken literally.

Hmm, I don’t know.

I’m not at all sure who angels are, but let us say some at least are rational beings, far superior to us in intellect. So, some would carry God’s truth as messengers. The cosmic fight would be between them and the forces of darkness - lies, doubt, skepticism, meaninglessness, and chaos - a sort of microcosm of what happens on these forums. Truth vs deceit; the Angels of God’s truth battling Satan’s demonic forces, “Sir, your argument has been refuted!”

I’m joking; it really is not a joke.

Alternatively, in this world we find strained, the relationship with God that would otherwise see us physically as well as spiritually perpetually maintained. The angels that might carry out this will of God, overwhelmed by Satan, are unable to prevent the fruit of our sin - death. Jesus fixed that, so we need only prove our willingness to follow Him in the now clear knowledge of our creaturely status (A fact which some are still reluctant to accept).

 

[black_sphere]

Where did you get this understanding? Certainly not from the Bible or the Catechism.

Either you’re one of those who take everything they read literally or you totally misunderstood me. Do you believe in the actual fires of hell or what? Isn’t it well known that those who reject God don’t want anything to do with Him and forcing them into heaven would be the real hell for them? All I’m saying is that those in hell experience happiness in their own way.

 

[PRmerger]

Either you’re one of those who take everything they read literally or you totally misunderstood me. Do you believe in the actual fires of hell or what? Isn’t it well known that those who reject God don’t want anything to do with Him and forcing them into heaven would be the real hell for them? All I’m saying is that those in hell experience happiness in their own way.

I think you are taking the idea that we choose hell wayyyyy too far.

It’s our choice, but that doesn’t mean it brings us happiness.

This statement you made (shown below) is, frankly, one of the most absurd I’ve read here on the CAFs.

All who end up there are just as happy as those in heaven

.

We can choose to commit adultery–and no one would deny that we were free to meet the guy, get naked with him and get busy–but that most certainly will NOT bring happiness.

 

[tonyrey]

Hmm, I don’t know.

I’m not at all sure who angels are, but let us say some at least are rational beings, far superior to us in intellect. So, some would carry God’s truth as messengers. The cosmic fight would be between them and the forces of darkness - lies, doubt, skepticism, meaninglessness, and chaos - a sort of microcosm of what happens on these forums. Truth vs deceit; the Angels of God’s truth battling Satan’s demonic forces, “Sir, your argument has been refuted!”

I’m joking; it really is not a joke.

Alternatively, in this world we find strained, the relationship with God that would otherwise see us physically as well as spiritually perpetually maintained. The angels that might carry out this will of God, overwhelmed by Satan, are unable to prevent the fruit of our sin - death. Jesus fixed that, so we need only prove our willingness to follow Him in the now clear knowledge of our creaturely status (A fact which some are still reluctant to accept).

I still can’t imagine how anyone overwhelmed by the Beatific Vision of God in all His glory and perfection could possibly choose to reject His infinite love.