The Fear of Hell

[tonyrey]

Experiencing death in and of itself does not necessarily produce conviction, since some may not repent at the hour of death, so your “perhaps” is well taken.

The question is what they become convinced of: that they should repent or that they shouldn’t… and why?

 

[tonyrey]

This is not consonant with reality.

Even when we have a partial view of the really bad consequences of sin we choose to sin anyway.

So there’s no reason to believe that when are eyes are opened at our death, we would choose differently.

It’s kind of like a teenager saying, “I know I’m lazy at home, but when I get a job I will actually do the things I’m supposed to do.”

We all know that how his character at home has given us an image of how he will be at work.

I think full knowledge of the consequences could well make all the difference. There must be clarity of insight that doesn’t exist in this life; otherwise hell would be unjust.

 

[PRmerger]

I think full knowledge of the consequences could well make all the difference. There must be clarity of insight that doesn’t exist in this life; otherwise hell would be unjust.

I’m pretty sure lots of folks make sinful decisions with full knowledge already. In this life.

They know. They choose to do it anyway.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The question is what they become convinced of: that they should repent or that they shouldn’t… and why?

As to that, only God knows!

An act of contrition may or may not be sincere.

The shedding of tears might be a clue.

 

[GEddie]

As to that, only God knows!

An act of contrition may or may not be sincere.

The shedding of tears might be a clue.

Tears may result only from congestion in one’s head.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

I’m pretty sure lots of folks make sinful decisions with full knowledge already. In this life.

They know. They choose to do it anyway.

How could they know in this life the full implications of being in hell - and losing God?

 

[tonyrey]

As to that, only God knows!

An act of contrition may or may not be sincere.

The shedding of tears might be a clue.

I don’t believe there is room for insincerity when we are making our ultimate decision. Everything is perfectly clear; otherwise hell would be unjust.

 

[tonyrey]

Tears may result only from congestion in one’s head.

ICXC NIKA

Are there tears at that stage of our existence?

 

[tonyrey]

That is why it is said that there are no atheists in foxholes. However, there may be some people who hate God for depriving them of what was always illusion: the power, the possessions, the honour and the pleasure, perhaps the hate itself. They may like Lot’s wife look back, unable to let go. The eternal yearning for what will never be, actually never really was their’s, may be their hell.

Even if we know the facts we can still yearn for power. Hell is essentially a state of frustration but it may well give rise to wishful thinking. That would be an element of compensation without which the concept of hell becomes absurd. Who would choose a state of unmitigated misery? After all hell is not a trap but a choice of **relative **independence. We’re not obliged to conform but absolute freedom is a illusion. In reality we choose to become a slave to ourselves.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Indeed. If we’re physically unconscious it doesn’t follow that we’re totally unconscious. A friend of mine was in a coma before she died but she groaned on hearing some one playing a piano…

A friend’s father was taking out the trash. He slipped while doing so and got up. A neighbor asked if he were okay and he said he was and was going to rest for a while. Several days later his wife returned from out of town to find him in bed with signs of decomposition and i ended up being the one that called people in various countries to notify his mother, siblings, daughter, and so on. I suspect he didn’t realize he would not be getting up from his rest

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Pardon my mistakes. Sent from a mobile device.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not sure what your point is here, Tom.

Are you saying that you would permit your son to be in this red-shirted guy’s position?

http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/dumb-people-doing-dumb-things-dumpaday-23.jpg

A simple yes or no is requested.

You can expound, later. But I need a yes or no first.

Thanks.

Do you really think that you know everything that your children do?

Did your parents know everything that you did?

One could say that my point is that one does not know everything that their children do, one’s parents didn’t know everything that one did and none of us know “all of the details” of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation.

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed. If we’re physically unconscious it doesn’t follow that we’re totally unconscious. A friend of mine was in a coma before she died but she groaned on hearing some one playing a piano…

There aren’t any!

We don’t know what went on in his mind before he died nor can we reasonably assume that was the end of him!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

One could say that my point is that one does not know everything that their children do, one’s parents didn’t know everything that one did and none of us know “all of the details” of God’s Plan which God has had since before creation.

We also could say we know some of the details of God’s plan because he has revealed them to us.

The existence of an eternal hell that we should fear is one of those details.

 

[tonyrey]

We also could say we know some of the details of God’s plan because he has revealed them to us.

The existence of an eternal hell that we should fear is one of those details.

Otherwise why did Jesus refer to hell more than forty times? That suggests it’s far more than a detail!

 

[Tom_Baum]

God cannot lose because He has created us to choose - to love ourselves more than others or as well as ourselves.

Even though it might not be the bible or theology, have you ever heard of the “hound of heaven”?

I do not know much about the “hound of heaven” but I do really believe that God knows more than us.

“could” is the key word. We should take Jesus at His word rather than ignore His distinction between the sheep and the goats.

You wrote, ““could” is the key word”, I agree, isn’t it nice that God gave us the ability to “hope” when many tell us that to hope is impossible and I already pointed out what Jesus said about “impossible”.

I wrote something about the “sheep and the goats”, did you see that?

I asked, "Doesn’t it seem that no one is a “total sheep” and no one is a “total goat” but that ALL of us seem to be a mixture of goat and sheep, any thoughts on that?

According to that argument many people could be in hell!

Or could be that God took ALL sins upon Himself for a reason other than a “tie” with satan.

Could be that Jesus went to hell, not just the abode of the good dead, and that is at least part of the reason that Jesus said, “… and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.

To underestimate the power God has given us amounts to underestimating God. Why would Jesus warn us about the danger of Hell if it doesn’t exist? Wasn’t He telling the truth?

Could be that I am NOT the one underestimating the “power” that God gave us.

Seems that there are those that think that the only “power” that God gave us is the power to put ourself in hell.

Maybe since Jesus died for us, one of the “powers” that God gave us is to be able to die for others.

I have never said that hell doesn’t exist, I HAVE said that I do not believe in some people’s “conception” of hell.

I believe Jesus and I also believe that we do NOT know everything.

That view has resulted in the existence of over forty thousand Christian denominations which disagree with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church…

So you do know that all of the “over forty thousand Christian denominations” do “disagree with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church”?

You wrote this in response to, “Maybe I should follow Jesus the way the I think/believe that I should follow Jesus rather than the way others think I should follow Jesus”.

I would rather honestly follow Jesus the way that I believe that God wants me to follow Jesus than the way that others think/believe that I should follow Jesus, it is that simple.

Jesus said, “I AM the Vine, you are the branches”, He did not say, ‘I AM the Vine, you are the branch’.

 

[Tom_Baum]

O.K. I see you are not interested in answering my question. In the quotes I gave you, Jesus and the CCC are in agreement. Wonder why you refuse to see this. Hell is eternal.

But since I can’t get you to agree that hell is eternal, it appears you disagree both with Christ and the CCC.

Are you saying that ALL mortal sins are “blasphemy against the Spirit”?

Do you know just what “eternal” means?

Do you know if “eternal” will be around for ever?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

We don’t know what went on in his mind before he died

No, we don’t know. That’s why I qualified my statement with the word “suspect.”
"ThinkingSapien:

I suspect he didn’t realize he would not be getting up from his rest

nor can we reasonably assume that was the end of him!

I don’t think anyone is assuming that death is the end of him. Whether death is a transition to another state of existence of the self or the doorway to annihilation, it seems that if you want to ensure that you do something before you die that waiting until the possibly unknown moment of your death isn’t a strategy that is likely to have a high rate of success.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Of course we should be concerned but when we realise the person is determined to ignore others and be totally independent we also realise we shouldn’t waste further time and energy when we could be helping some one else.

In response to, “Do you think that us mere mortals here on earth should be totally unconcerned if someone was in “self-inflicted” torture here on earth?”

Seems that there are those that are in mental institutions, other care facilities and on medications, that were in ““self-inflicted” torture”, that not everyone considered a “waste” of “further time and energy”.

Obviously but there comes a point at which some one more deserving of our help should have priority.

I consider that two of the most important things that I have learned in this life were learned in second grade and one of them was, “We are ALL equal in God’s Eyes”.

Who is the “more deserving of our help”, the one who can “afford” it or the one who needs it most?
When more than one needs help, quite often it does not boil down to who is “more deserving of our help”, it boils down to they just plain need help.

It doesn’t but in heaven we know who despises anyone who loves God and doesn’t deserve our pity.

Just seems kind of strange that heaven would make us more hard-hearted and less caring, doesn’t it to anyone else?

Jesus thought otherwise when He gave us the parable of the sheep and the goats. Do you think He made a mistake?

I don’t think that Jesus made a mistake in the “parable of the sheep and the goats” but we may have.

I also do not think that Jesus made a mistake in taking ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross and as I said, “I do NOT think that God has created anyone that is beyond the “cleaning-up” ability, so to speak, of God”.

That also implies Jesus was wrong.

You wrote this in response to, “Could be why God came up with a Plan even before creation and why going to the cross was/is such a central part of God’s Plan”.

It may imply that “Jesus was wrong” to you but it could also “imply” that when we think that we know it all, we don’t.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I stipulated “when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell” which cannot be the case if our eyes are suddenly opened to the truth.

Do you really think that “full knowledge” can not come in less than an instant?

 

[mikekle]

The problem with this way of thinking is that it does not seem sincere for us to repent at the hour of death, when we could have repented long before. The Lord will know whether in our hearts the repentance is sincere or whether we are just gambling on a get-out-of-jail card.

Yes, God will know whether we are sincere or not.

Regarding WHEN we repent…that should not make any difference, if we are truly immortal beings, we exist FOREVER, and therefore have freewill FOREVER, thus enabling us to continue making choices, WE are our souls our souls ARE believed to be immortal, so if we believe this, anything granted to us by God, would also be immortal/ indefinite.

if we only have this very short human lifespan to make these important choices, then our free will would be temporary and very limited.