The Fear of Hell

[tonyrey]

My apologies! I’m so sorry, I put the wrong letter down. Of course I meant to say C, which was the whole point of making the list so it would reflect what he said.

Please consider it retracted and my apologies to all who may have been offended. If I used emoticons and there was one indicating ‘I feel like a complete idiot’ then it would appear here.

I made a similar mistake recently, Brad, when I wrote the exact opposite of what I had in mind. We’re all in the same boat! Perhaps this would fit the bill: :doh2:

 

[tonyrey]

Thats not what he said… he said it was expanded for those who reject him
(human wise). People send themselves there, they were not sent there by God unlike Satan and his fallen. don’t put words in God’s mouth. Not wise. If hell was created for people then why not say that? Why not say hell was prepared for the devil his fallen angels and those who reject God instead of just Satan and his fallen angels? why only say half the truth? Half the truth is deception… Satan is the Father of Deception not GOD. If hell was created for people, then why Jesus?

Although hell may not have been created for people it doesn’t follow that it’s the monopoly of Satan & Co, i.e. Satan Ltd. Jesus died for everyone but we’re not compelled to accept His love.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

A warm welcome to the forum!

If anyone denies the reality of truth, goodness and love it is waste of time and energy trying to reason with them. They are isolated in a box of their making…

From Mark paraphrasing Jeremiah:

‘Having eyes, see you not? and having ears, hear you not? neither do you remember.’

In the words of the late Prof. Karl Popper:

No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude.

[Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.

Science may be described as the art of systematic over-simplification.]

 

[tonyrey]

From Mark paraphrasing Jeremiah:

‘Having eyes, see you not? and having ears, hear you not? neither do you remember.’

In the words of the late Prof. Karl Popper:

No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude.

[Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.

Science may be described as the art of systematic over-simplification.]

Especially when scientists seek to explain themselves!

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom Baum,

Do you believe or do you deny that some people will go to an eternal hell?

First off, I do NOT know ALL of the details of God’s Plan.

Is your definition of “eternal hell”, one that lasts for eternity?

Can you give me “the” definition of eternity and if not than your definition of eternity?

Does eternity lasts for eternity or does eternity last for ever?

Seems to me that “eternity”, whatever it exactly is, just seems to be, as in not created, whereas “for ever” seems to be associated with “time” which is something that I believe that God “created”.

Does God have a Plan to swallow up eternity, whatever it is, in time?

As far as the “new heavens and the new earth” spoken of in the bible, where is “hell”, which is not mentioned, could something have happened to “hell and spiritual death”, which Jesus said, " , and the gates of the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) shall not prevail against It"?

I believe that God has a Plan and in God’s Plan, Jesus is the Saviour of the world and as I said, I do NOT know ALL of the details.

Even though you may think that you know all of the details of God’s Plan, I have said and I repeat, I do not know all of the details of God’s Plan.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

First off, I do NOT know ALL of the details of God’s Plan.

Is your definition of “eternal hell”, one that lasts for eternity?

Can you give me “the” definition of eternity and if not than your definition of eternity?

Does eternity lasts for eternity or does eternity last for ever?

Seems to me that “eternity”, whatever it exactly is, just seems to be, as in not created, whereas “for ever” seems to be associated with “time” which is something that I believe that God “created”.

Does God have a Plan to swallow up eternity, whatever it is, in time?

As far as the “new heavens and the new earth” spoken of in the bible, where is “hell”, which is not mentioned, could something have happened to “hell and spiritual death”, which Jesus said, " , and the gates of the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) shall not prevail against It"?

I believe that God has a Plan and in God’s Plan, Jesus is the Saviour of the world and as I said, I do NOT know ALL of the details.

Even though you may think that you know all of the details of God’s Plan, I have said and I repeat, I do not know all of the details of God’s Plan.

I notice several times that when you are asked a question, you like to answer with multiple questions instead of a simple yes or not.

I’ll try again. Do you agree with the quotes below from the Catechism and from the Bible?

Please don’t answer with more questions that evade my question.

From the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its **eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Matthew 25: 39-41
‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ "The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the **eternal fire **which has been prepared for the devil and his angels…”

 

[Tom_Baum]

You didn’t answer any of my questions but I will try to answer yours.

1. I believe that God is capable of “convincing” without compelling.
2. By “totally independent”, I take it you mean totally independent of God, I do not consider hell to be “totally independent” of God since I believe that it is the “Consuming Fire”, which is God, that can caress or burn, it is “spiritual death” that is separation from God. I believe that God is capable of things that some seem to think God being incapable of. As I said above, “I believe that God is capable of “convincing” without compelling.”
3. I believe that Jesus is saying more there than some think God capable of saying.
   
   Do you think that you know any people who are “total sheep” or “total goat”?
4. As far as, “Can we force those who choose to be totally independent to change their mind?”, I happen to believe that God is very much an integral part of the equation, so to speak, and you seem to have left him out, in this question of yours, “Can we force those who choose to be totally independent to change their mind?’”, haven’t you?
5. Jesus said some things that are very interesting and the bible states things that are also very interesting, I suppose there are those that can see some “hope” in some of what is written in the bible:

1. "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

2)  "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

I tell no one what to think or believe but with the “experiences” that I have had and the “ponderings” I have done, I hope.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Sin is in the willful refusal to adopt a rational attitude.

That is why atheism is not only an error of intellect, but also a willful sin.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I made a similar mistake recently, Brad, when I wrote the exact opposite of what I had in mind. We’re all in the same boat! Perhaps this would fit the bill: :doh2:

We’re all human.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I notice several times that when you are asked a question, you like to answer with multiple questions instead of a simple yes or not.

I’ll try again. Do you agree with the quotes below from the Catechism and from the Bible?

Please don’t answer with more questions that evade my question.

From the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its **eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Matthew 25: 39-41
‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ "The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the **eternal fire **which has been prepared for the devil and his angels…”

You wrote, "From the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its **eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

From the bible, Jesus supposedly said, “Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

As far as I know, no one knows what “blasphemy against the Spirit” is and I pray to God that God somehow protects ALL of us from that somehow.

Does the CCC trump Jesus, in your opinion?

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;12942824:

You didn’t answer any of my questions but I will try to answer yours.

1. I believe that God is capable of “convincing” without compelling.

“convince” is derived from “vincere” = defeat - which implies that everyone is ultimately conquered by God. If that is so what happens to free will and why are there angels in hell?

1. By “totally independent”, I take it you mean totally independent of God, I do not consider hell to be “totally independent” of God since I believe that it is the “Consuming Fire”, which is God, that can caress or burn, it is “spiritual death” that is separation from God. I believe that God is capable of things that some seem to think God being incapable of. As I said above, “I believe that God is capable of “convincing” without compelling.”

All things are possible for God but He is not inconsistent. He creates us in His God’s image and gives us the power to determine our own destiny. If no one is in hell it would be evidence that we are not genuinely free.

1. I believe that Jesus is saying more there than some think God capable of saying.

 Do you think that you know any people who are "total sheep" or "total goat"?

Jesus didn’t make that distinction. Nor does the Church’s doctrine of purgatory imply that everyone repents.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (*GCD *69), also called “hell.”

1. As far as, “Can we force those who choose to be totally independent to change their mind?”, I happen to believe that God is very much an integral part of the equation, so to speak, and you seem to have left him out, in this question of yours, “Can we force those who choose to be totally independent to change their mind?’”, haven’t you?

I have already addressed that issue in my first question.

1. Jesus said some things that are very interesting and the bible states things that are also very interesting, I suppose there are those that can see some “hope” in some of what is written in the bible:

1. "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

2)  "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

Neither of those statements implies that everyone wills to be saved. To think otherwise is to underestimate the power God has given us - which is directly responsible for all the horrific destruction and suffering in the world throughout the history of the human race.

I tell no one what to think or believe but with the “experiences” that I have had and the “ponderings” I have done, I hope.

I don’t doubt your experiences but the significance of private revelations has to be assessed in the light of the Church’s teaching about hell. We have to believe God is both just and merciful with the corollary that we are forgiven to the extent that we forgive others. Otherwise why did Jesus ask us to say that prayer?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom Baum;12944047:

“convince” is derived from “vincere” = defeat - which implies that everyone is ultimately conquered by God. If that is so what happens to free will and why are there angels in hell?

Didn’t know that about convince, but it would sure be beyond great if God’s Victory is Total and God wins ALL including those angels that you asked about “in hell”.

It is said that God works in mysterious ways and you telling me about “convince” being derived from “defeat”, is to me, God speaking to me thru you, as I have said many times, God wins, satan loses, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

All things are possible for God but He is not inconsistent. He creates us in His God’s image and gives us the power to determine our own destiny.

If no one is in hell it would be evidence that we are not genuinely free.

Or it could be evidence that God cares so much for ALL of us that God came up with a Plan that many find impossible but as Someone once said, “With man it is impossible but with God, ALL things are possible”.

Jesus didn’t make that distinction. Nor does the Church’s doctrine of purgatory imply that everyone repents.

Ever heard of God being called the “God of surprises”?

I know that I do NOT know all of the details of God’s Plan, do you?

1056

Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (*GCD *69), also called “hell.”

I have already addressed that issue in my first question.

Neither of those statements implies that everyone wills to be saved

. To think otherwise is to underestimate the power God has given us - which is directly responsible for all the horrific destruction and suffering in the world throughout the history of the human race.

Maybe we should not underestimate God.

I don’t doubt your experiences but the significance of private revelations has to be assessed in the light of the Church’s teaching about hell. We have to believe God is both just and merciful with the corollary that we are forgiven to the extent that we forgive others. Otherwise why did Jesus ask us to say that prayer?

Maybe I should follow Jesus the way the I think/believe that I should follow Jesus rather than the way others think I should follow Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

To apologise is to ask to be forgiven - which fulfils the prayer given to us by Jesus and a sign of not being on the way to hell!

 

[PRmerger]

Doesn’t look like the guy in the red t-shirt got his head smashed so maybe God really did come up with a catholic Plan of Salvation.

Not sure what your point is here, Tom.

Are you saying that you would permit your son to be in this red-shirted guy’s position?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A simple yes or no is requested.

You can expound, later. But I need a yes or no first.

Thanks.

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;12944194:

“convince” is derived from “vincere” = defeat - which implies that everyone is ultimately conquered by God. If that is so what happens to free will and why are there angels in hell?

Didn’t know that about convince, but it would sure be beyond great if God’s Victory is Total and God wins ALL including those angels that you asked about “in hell”.

It is said that God works in mysterious ways and you telling me about “convince” being derived from “defeat”, is to me, God speaking to me thru you, as I have said many times, God wins, satan loses, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

God cannot lose because He has created us to choose - to love ourselves more than others or as well as ourselves.

All things are possible for God but He is not inconsistent. He creates us in His God’s image and gives us the power to determine our own destiny. If no one is in hell it would be evidence that we are not genuinely free.

Or it could be evidence that God cares so much for ALL of us that God came up with a Plan that many find impossible but as Someone once said, “With man it is impossible but with God, ALL things are possible”.

“could” is the key word. We should take Jesus at His word rather than ignore His distinction between the sheep and the goats.

Jesus didn’t make that distinction. Nor does the Church’s doctrine of purgatory imply that everyone repents.
Ever heard of God being called the “God of surprises”?
I know that I do NOT know all of the details of God’s Plan, do you?

According to that argument many people could be in hell!

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (GCD 69), also called “hell.”

Neither of those statements implies that everyone wills to be saved. To think otherwise is to underestimate the power God has given us - which is directly responsible for all the horrific destruction and suffering in the world throughout the history of the human race.

Maybe we should not underestimate God.

To underestimate the power God has given us amounts to underestimating God. Why would Jesus warn us about the danger of Hell if it doesn’t exist? Wasn’t He telling the truth?

I don’t doubt your experiences but the significance of private revelations has to be assessed in the light of the Church’s teaching about hell. We have to believe God is both just and merciful with the corollary that we are forgiven to the extent that we forgive others. Otherwise why did Jesus ask us to say that prayer?

Maybe I should follow Jesus the way the I think/believe that I should follow Jesus rather than the way others think I should follow Jesus.

That view has resulted in the existence of over forty thousand Christian denominations which disagree with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church…

 

[mikekle]

No where in the bible does it say hell was prepared for people. It does say it was prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels. It also says hell expanded for those who reject God, but no where does it say hell was prepared for humans. If it was prepared for humans, then why even have Jesus (a way of salvation from a place that was prepared for humans)?
However the bible does talk about Jesus going away to prepare a place for His people in heaven John 14:3

Hell does accept people and make room for people who refuse Jesus, but it was not prepared for people. It was not created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his fallen and it was created for the devil and his fallen. It just now serves more than one purpose since people are sending themselves to hell since they want to reject Christ. It just expands.

This is one of the main reasons, I still wonder what the truth is about hell, somehow I just dont see God creating a place specifically for satan and the other fallen, but then, saying, well, I will also use it for human souls who have rejected me…that does not sound like something God would do imo, seems like he would create another place for human souls, since humans and angels are ENTIRELY different types of beings, so hell for one, would not necessarily be ‘hell’ for the other or vice verse.

However I also believe that humans retain their free will upon death, I have seen nothing to suggest that our free will is a temporary thing, God created us as IMMORTAL beings, meaning our souls never die, well, at birth, we are gifted free will, seems strange at our death it would suddenly be taken away.

Having said this, I kind of think at the time of our death, or milli-seconds before the actual death, we are given one final chance, our eyes are opened to the truth at this time, so there is no more guessing about Gods existence, the afterlife, etc. we see the whole truth in that moment and then we can choose, of course, some people will likely still choose to ‘go away’ from God, if they had no use for him in life, that probably wont change in the after life, so they will be quite content in hell, but some will recognize the error of their ways in life and probably sob at how they could have been so blind, I believe these people will accept God at this moment, and some may go to hell for awhile and then recognize they made a mistake and call out to God.

But the real debate here is ‘free will’ if it is temporary or immortal like everything else related to God is, if it is immortal, we still retain our choice, even after death, if not, than this gift from God is limited time only. ( those words are usually not associated with God and his actions).

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You wrote, "From the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its **eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” **The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

From the bible, Jesus supposedly said, “Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

As far as I know, no one knows what “blasphemy against the Spirit” is and I pray to God that God somehow protects ALL of us from that somehow.

Does the CCC trump Jesus, in your opinion?

O.K. I see you are not interested in answering my question. In the quotes I gave you, Jesus and the CCC are in agreement. Wonder why you refuse to see this. Hell is eternal.

But since I can’t get you to agree that hell is eternal, it appears you disagree both with Christ and the CCC.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

This is one of the main reasons, I still wonder what the truth is about hell, somehow I just dont see God creating a place specifically for satan and the other fallen, but then, saying, well, I will also use it for human souls who have rejected me…**that does not sound like something God would do imo, seems like he would create another place for human souls, **since humans and angels are ENTIRELY different types of beings, so hell for one, would not necessarily be ‘hell’ for the other or vice verse.

What you think is not really important. What Jesus taught is all that matters, unless you have ceased to believe in Jesus.

 

[mikekle]

What you think is not really important. What Jesus taught is all that matters, unless you have ceased to believe in Jesus.

No, I still believe in Jesus/God, still believe he is the creator of everything, still believe he was born and died on the cross for our sins…BUT I also believe we have mis-interpreted certain parts of the bible, Im not sure what denomination that makes me exactly, but I still call myself a Christian.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I still believe in Jesus/God, still believe he is the creator of everything, still believe he was born and died on the cross for our sins…BUT I also believe we have mis-interpreted certain parts of the bible, Im not sure what denomination that makes me exactly, but I still call myself a Christian.

Well, mike, you get your “data” that Jesus died on the cross for our sins from the Catholic Church.

If you don’t believe Catholicism is correct, then how do you know that the Church got it right about that part of good news?