The Fear of Hell

[Tom_Baum]

You don’t know what you are talking about.

aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/hiv-aids-101/statistics/

I look at the site that you gave and it says that gay men in America are the biggest at risk group but it does not break it down around the rest of the world and awhile back from what I heard, and maybe still so, the most at risk group in Africa was the heterosexual community.

Do you know the break down in Africa?

What we should never forget is that it is a human disease not a homosexual disease.

One of the statistics: "MSM accounted for 54% of all people living with HIV infection " and this is a US statistic, so that means that 46% of all people living with HIV infection in the US is not accounted from homosexual sex, if I read it right.

No matter what, as I said it is a human disease.

 

[tonyrey]

It is unwise to draw a conclusion on words that were not said in a parable whereas the precise words of the prayer given to us by Jesus must be taken literally. If we are not prepared to forgive others how could we possibly share life with them in heaven? Without repentance we are not fit to be in God’s presence. That warning dates from the prophets in the Old Testament, was the theme of St John the Baptist’s message and implied in Our Lord’s prayer on the Cross:

Their prayers are useless if we disobey Christ’s command to forgive others and love them as He has loved us. We would be like the servant in His parable who was forgiven by his master and then had another man thrown into prison:

Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Concerning, “Without repentance we are not fit to be in God’s presence.”

Maybe God actually cares for us, you have heard that God became One of us and took ALL of EVERYONE’S sins upon Himself on the cross, haven’t you?

Who knows maybe God WANTS those that He created in His Image to be with Him in Paradise and it is us who keeps shoving God away.

And you wrote, “That warning dates from the prophets in the Old Testament, was the theme of St John the Baptist’s message and implied in Our Lord’s prayer on the Cross: “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”.”

Yes, Jesus said, ““Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”.”,

Jesus did NOT say, ‘Forgive only those that repent’.

It wasn’t necessary because He had already condemned self-righteous hypocrites like the Pharisees who believe they are sinless and have no reason to repent.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems as if when Jesus said, “Forgive them, Father,…”, it was a simple, clear, straight-forward, catholic statement.

Jesus was referring to those who were crucifying Him and not evil people who are well aware that what they have done is wrong and will not admit it:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[PRmerger]

Every Christian on this thread believes it exists yet even the Pope thought it only a possibility.

Sorry. I missed that reference. Could you repost where “the Pope thought [hell] only a possiblity”?

 

[tonyrey]

OK, so it exists. Eternal torment. But then ‘eternal’ is simply too difficult for us mere mortals to get out head around. Let’s make it something we can grasp. Let’s make it a little shorter. Let’s make it ten years. We can all cope with that.

So forget people being tormented for ever. Just consider someone being tormented for ten years. That will be every second of every hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, for the full term. So when you get up in the morning making the kids’ breakfast, they are being tortured. And still being tortured while you’re at work and when you pick the kids up from school. Even when you drop off to sleep it’s going on. When you’re on holiday. While you are in church. While you’re at the ball game. It just goes on and on.

Now eternity is quite a long time. But ten years is just a drop in the ocean in comparison. So it shouldn’t be difficult to imagine someone suffering torment for that length of time. So let me know who you think deserves that. Constant, continuous, non-stop torture from now until 2025. Who would like to nominate anyone at all for that punishment?

And I don’t want any excuses thrown around along the lines of: ‘It’s not for us to decide who goes to hell!’ I’m not asking you to decide. If you think hell exists and it’s for people who do evil, then I just want you to tell me who you think deserves it.

Will there be anything other than deathly silence?

Heaven and hell do not exist in time and space. Like truth, goodness, freedom, justice and love they are immaterial and transcend the physical universe. Human words are only symbols used to describe spiritual reality. We are the same persons throughout all the changes that occur in our life on earth and after death. We all deserve to suffer because we have all caused suffering deliberately or through negligence. What counts is whether we are sorry for what we have done or failed to do and whether we are prepared to make amends or not.

I believe what happens in this world is a good guide to what happens in the next. Heaven and hell begin from the time we reach the age of reason: our happiness or misery depends on our degree of love for others and ourselves. The more unselfish we are the more content we become because we are liberated from ourselves and share what we are and what we have. On the other hand the more selfish we are the more enslaved we become to our desires and ambitions. We should love ourselves, of course, but not at the cost of other people’s happiness. This is where the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity come in. They are not arbitrary maxims but truths about personal development. If we ignore them we are punishing ourselves because we have an unbalanced view of our own value and importance. In effect we are living in a fool’s paradise which turns out to be a mental inferno. The more selfish we are the more detestable and isolated we become.

It follows that hell is not a superstition but a fact we cannot afford to ignore. It is wishful thinking to believe psychological justice is an illusion in view of all the evidence that a criminal mentality is not conducive to happiness or peace of mind. I believe there will not be a deathly silence after death because nothing would make sense. It wouldn’t matter how saintly or diabolical we have been if we existed for no reason whatsoever. The gross injustice in the world would never be rectified and the victims never compensated for their suffering. The only possible conclusion would be that life is absurd, a view that makes it impossible to explain how we are capable of reasoning and realising life is absurd!

So my answer to your question is that we are all in hell - or heaven - to the extent that we are obsessed with ourselves and unconcerned about others. It is impossible for us to know the precise degree of misery we can inflict on ourselves but there seems no reason why it cannot last indefinitely. Why impose limits when we cannot even understand how our minds exist? Consciousness has never been explained and there is no sign that it will be…

 

[Bradski]

Sorry. I missed that reference. Could you repost where “the Pope thought [hell] only a possiblity”?

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

I can’t remember who originally posted it, but here’s a link: romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html

Kinda weird that. Everyone is absolutely positive, beyond any doubt, that hell exists (every single post bar those with no belief has been predicated on that fact) and yet here we have John Paul saying that eternal damnation is nothing but a possibility.

So my answer to your question is that we are all in hell - or heaven - to the extent that we are obsessed with ourselves and unconcerned about others.

That’s not a reply. It’s what’s called evading the question. Give me just one person, Tony. Make him or her up if you like. Tell me who you think deserves torturing for just a measly 10 years. There just has to be someone, otherwise…well, otherwise this thread has been a waste of everyone’s time. There’s no point in having a hell if no-one deserves to go there.

C’mon, just one name. Or forget the name. Just describe what crime justifies 10 years of continuous torture. Anyone at all…?

 

[Aloysium]

It’s late, my mind is foggy and maybe I am misreading things, but I think a caveat is in order. If you are going to link a site to support a claim concerning the Catholic Church, you do not gain much credibility if it is one that claims our Popes are heretics. Just a heads up.

 

[Bradski]

It’s late, my mind is foggy and maybe I am misreading things, but I think a caveat is in order. If you are going to link a site to support a claim concerning the Catholic Church, you do not gain much credibility if it is one that claims our Popes are heretics. Just a heads up.

Do you think the Pope is a heretic in using such language? Because not only is the quote in L’Osservatore Romano, it appears it has been written into the Acta Apolistolicae Sedis. That’s about as official as you can get. The revised quote at the end carries my emphasis.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/are-there-souls-in-hell-right-now

It was originally recorded in the L’Osservatore Romano, August 4, 1999, and it read:
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.

This sounds like it agrees with Fr. Barron and von Balthasar, doesn’t it? However, when this statement was placed in the AAS (Acta Apostolicae Sedis—all of the official statements of our Popes are placed there in their official form), “whether or” was edited out. This is most significant. The Pope’s original statement seemed to lend itself to questioning whether or not any souls are in hell. At the time, it was met with serious blow-back. But it was purposely amended, it appears, to eliminate those two problematic words. Thus, the official statement of the Pope reads:

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of which human beings are effectively involved in it.

 

[davidv]

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

A more reasonable interpretation of this is that of the uncertainty of who if anyone this there. I don’t see any uncertainty of the reality of hell.

I can’t remember who originally posted it, but here’s a link: romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html

Kinda weird that. Everyone is absolutely positive, beyond any doubt, that hell exists (every single post bar those with no belief has been predicated on that fact) and yet here we have John Paul saying that eternal damnation is nothing but a possibility.

That’s not a reply. It’s what’s called evading the question. Give me just one person, Tony. Make him or her up if you like. Tell me who you think deserves torturing for just a measly 10 years. There just has to be someone, otherwise…well, otherwise this thread has been a waste of everyone’s time. There’s no point in having a hell if no-one deserves to go there.

C’mon, just one name. Or forget the name. Just describe what crime justifies 10 years of continuous torture. Anyone at all…?

 

[Magdalenaa]

I would simply quote Peter Kreeft

“Heaven is Truth embraced, hell is Truth refused. So heaven and hell are the same objective reality experienced in opposite subjective ways. Metaphorically heaven and hell are the same place. What is hell to one is heaven to the other. So the very fires of hell may consists of the eternal truth and goodness and love of God. That is ultimate reality. This eternal truth that simultaneously blessed the blessed and damns the damned is not something abstract, is the face of God.”

 

[tonyrey]

I would simply quote Peter Kreeft

“Heaven is Truth embraced, hell is Truth refused. So heaven and hell are the same objective reality experienced in opposite subjective ways. Metaphorically heaven and hell are the same place. What is hell to one is heaven to the other. So the very fires of hell may consists of the eternal truth and goodness and love of God. That is ultimate reality. This eternal truth that simultaneously blessed the blessed and damns the damned is not something abstract, is the face of God.”

A warm welcome to the forum!

If anyone denies the reality of truth, goodness and love it is waste of time and energy trying to reason with them. They are isolated in a box of their making…

 

[tonyrey]

So my answer to your question is that we are all in hell - or heaven - to the extent that we are obsessed with ourselves and unconcerned about others

If it’s not a reply why don’t you refute it?

Give me just one person, Tony. Make him or her up if you like. Tell me who you think deserves torturing for just a measly 10 years. There just has to be someone, otherwise…well, otherwise this thread has been a waste of everyone’s time. There’s no point in having a hell if no-one deserves to go there.

C’mon, just one name. Or forget the name. Just describe what crime justifies 10 years of continuous torture. Anyone at all…?

No reasonable person believes we can know precisely what happens after death but we have plenty of evidence as to what happens in this life. Can you explain why our virtues don’t bring their own reward and our vices don’t incur their own punishment? Does being proud, selfish, lazy, greedy, impatient, envious, jealous or callous make us happy and endear us to other people? Failure to answer that question destroys the credibility of your scepticism.

This thread is certainly a waste of time for those who ignore what others have written, e.g. “deserves torturing” implies that it isn’t self-inflicted - which is the fundamental objection to your rejection of hell.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Hell is was not prepared for PEOPLE either. Just because people send theirselves there out of self want and self love, does not mean hell is for people. That is ludicrous. It was prepared for the devil and his fallen comrads.

Hell was prepared for those who reject the will of God.

That includes the devil and his angels … and also the people seduced by the devil.

Seeker, what are you seeking if not the truth of Jesus revealed to us in his own words?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No matter what, as I said it is a human disease.

Yes, AIDS is a human disease. But why are you laboring to state the obvious?

 

[TheSeeker2014]

Hell was prepared for those who reject the will of God.

That includes the devil and his angels … and also the people seduced by the devil.

Seeker, what are you seeking if not the truth of Jesus revealed to us in his own words?

No where in the bible does it say hell was prepared for people. It does say it was prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels. It also says hell expanded for those who reject God, but no where does it say hell was prepared for humans. If it was prepared for humans, then why even have Jesus (a way of salvation from a place that was prepared for humans)?
However the bible does talk about Jesus going away to prepare a place for His people in heaven John 14:3

Hell does accept people and make room for people who refuse Jesus, but it was not prepared for people. It was not created for people. It was prepared for the devil and his fallen and it was created for the devil and his fallen. It just now serves more than one purpose since people are sending themselves to hell since they want to reject Christ. It just expands.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No where in the bible does it say hell was prepared for people. It does say it was prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels.

Now we are just quibbling, aren’t we?

God exists outside time, so he knows from all eternity that hell is created for people as well as the devil and his fallen angels. Initially, for the devil, but absolutely for all (including humans) who will reject God.

 

[TheSeeker2014]

Now we are just quibbling, aren’t we?

God exists outside time, so he knows from all eternity that hell is created for people as well as the devil and his fallen angels. Initially, for the devil, but absolutely for all (including humans) who will reject God.

Thats not what he said… he said it was expanded for those who reject him
(human wise). People send themselves there, they were not sent there by God unlike Satan and his fallen. don’t put words in God’s mouth. Not wise. If hell was created for people then why not say that? Why not say hell was prepared for the devil his fallen angels and those who reject God instead of just Satan and his fallen angels? why only say half the truth? Half the truth is deception… Satan is the Father of Deception not GOD.
If hell was created for people, then why Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

I can’t remember who originally posted it, but here’s a link: romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html

Kinda weird that. Everyone is absolutely positive, beyond any doubt, that hell exists (every single post bar those with no belief has been predicated on that fact) and yet here we have John Paul saying that eternal damnation is nothing but a possibility.

I think you are adding quite a bit to JP2’s statement. Firstly, it’s not “ONLY” a possibility. But simply: a possibility.

Secondly, it’s not “nothing but” a possibility. But simply: a possibility.

Imagine if your child asked you, “Daddy Bradski, if lie under a bike ramp while someone jumps over me, is it possible for him to smash my head?”

You respond, “Yes, dearest child o’ mine. It’s always a possibility”.

He concludes: “My daddy doesn’t even think it’s possible for me to get my head smashed! He said it’s ONLY a possibility. And! He said it’s ‘nothing but’ a possibility! I think that means that he says there’s no possible way I’m going to get hurt! Let’s do it!”

Off to the street he goes…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Tom_Baum]

Their prayers are useless if we disobey Christ’s command to forgive others and love them as He has loved us. We would be like the servant in His parable who was forgiven by his master and then had another man thrown into prison:

So, basically, you are saying that “prayers are useless”.

You missed my point and that is that the servant who did NOT forgive was not thrown in prison for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever but was thrown in “until his debt was paid”, quite a big difference and the fact that you apparently missed this difference shows just what many others may have missed and just what may be one of the “important” lessons of the parable.

It wasn’t necessary because He had already condemned self-righteous hypocrites like the Pharisees who believe they are sinless and have no reason to repent.

Maybe it wasn’t necessary for you to add to what Jesus said.

Jesus said many things and some seem to be contradictory but they may just be complementary if we actually believe that He said what He said.

Jesus was referring to those who were crucifying Him and not evil people who are well aware that what they have done is wrong and will not admit it:

When God speaks, God may very well be speaking to more than what seems to be God’s immediate audience.

Do you think that all of the things that Jesus said was meant only for the people in His immediate audience?

What Jesus said in His earthly ministry, including what He said on the cross, I believe was meant for ALL, including to this day and to the future.

As far as “to those who were crucifying Him”, if we believe that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross than to see who crucified Jesus, all one needs to do is to look in the mirror.

 

[Tom_Baum]

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

I can’t remember who originally posted it, but here’s a link: romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.html

Kinda weird that. Everyone is absolutely positive, beyond any doubt, that hell exists (every single post bar those with no belief has been predicated on that fact) and yet here we have John Paul saying that eternal damnation is nothing but a possibility.

First you said, “Everyone is absolutely positive, beyond any doubt, that hell exists” and then you said, “yet here we have John Paul saying that eternal damnation is nothing but a possibility.”

“Hell” and “eternal damnation” are not one and the same in some people’s minds, so for you to say that everyone on here that believes in hell also believes in eternal damnation is a “fact” in your mind, not in reality, if in fact to you, “eternal damnation” means one is punished for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

 

[Techno2000]

“until his debt was paid”

I think Jesus is talking about Purgatory.