The Fear of Hell

[PRmerger]

OK – from a few randomly selected posts on this thread.

Well, we’re off to a good start. If it exists, it’s not even Christian. And not even created for us:

But we shouldn’t fear it (so why it’s there I’m not sure).

Although if it is founded, it’s not just a place where it’s an absence of God. It’s…

Or is it:

Sounds pretty harmless. And…

Sounds like a bad day at the office. And…

Just like getting refused to a restaurant because you haven’t got a jacket. It was hell I tell you. And more:

I murdered 35 people and now I’m really sad. But no-one wants to go there, surely. Except some do apparently:

So there must be lots of people there. Although:

Not many? Yet the greek fathers are of a different opinion:

Among the Greek Fathers, Irenaeus, Basil, and Cyril of Jerusalem are typical in interpreting passages such as Matthew 22:14 as meaning that the majority will be consigned to hell. St. John Chrysostom, an outstanding doctor of the Eastern tradition, was particularly pessimistic: “Among thousands of people there are not a hundred who will arrive at their salvation, and I am not even certain of that number, so much perversity is there among the young and so much negligence among the old.”

But even the Pope isn’t sure about it existing! A possibility?

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

So do we choose it? Yes we do.

Oh, sorry, no we don’t.

So maybe we’re not really sure what this hell is really all about:

Yet it is Eternal Punishment. Jesus says so.

Or maybe people chasing shadows:

But if it was eternal torment, who in their right mind would take joy from it:

'Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned." - newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

LOL!!!

None of those points are contradictory. None of them are anything but logical possibilities.

Imagine if you were in a forum of pro-vaccination folks. You concluded, “None of you guys know what the hell you’re talking about! Look at these comments I’ve picked out that you’ve said:”

Jtruth says: “Vaccines are immunogenic–that’s a fact!”

and yet!

MarvaRN says: “My opinion is that every single parent should immunize their children!”

What is it? Fact or opinion??

And here’s ShotsRGood saying “Some children will get a fever or have some malaise after getting immunized.”

But look at this:

MorningGlory said, “In all my years as a doctor I’ve never encountered a single individual who has died from getting immunized.”

You guys can’t get your facts straight! You’re saying there are side effects, and that there aren’t side effects. Which is it, folks???

And there’s more!

KLV said: “My insurance covers all the HPV vaccines!”

BUT!!

PaulinCalifornia said, “My insurance refused to cover all the HPV vaccines!”

See? That’s why I believe immunizations are satanic! They inject the devil into my children’s bodies and I care for my child enough to not do that, thank you very much!

It would be idiotic, right, to:

1. assume that pro-vaccine people don’t have their stories straight
2. that vaccinating one’s child is wrong because of #1.

Yes?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

PRmerger,

Perhaps a better analogy would be this:

OP of this thread: “Some people don’t want to vaccinate their kids because they think vaccines cause autism. How would you answer this critique of vaccines? ”

If the responses to that thread were:

“There are no vaccines”
“So and So said her son got it from a vaccine”
“First person account of someone with autism saying their symptoms developed the same instant as the injection, even though they were 12 months old and there is no way to corroborate the testimony.”
“No, vaccines don’t cause autism”
“Vaccinated kids deserve autism so no big deal”
“Autism is a nice thing, it helps you concentrate”
“Autism isn’t so bad, so why worry?”
“Autism isn’t real”
“Most people are going to get it anyway”
“Autism is the most horrific thing ever, truly unimaginably awful”
etc…

We may be able to suppose, from the diversity and contradictory nature of the opinions, that the knowledge of the relationship between vaccines and autism is at the least unclear and vague to the people in the thread. Is that not a warranted suspicion? Why not?

Can this issue be resolved? Yes, with scientific study.

Can the hell issue be resolved? I hope so, but with reason (rather than science).

That said, this is post 1,000. No resolution. Sorry to waste the 1,000th post on this silly analogy. I suppose someone else can start a new thread, maybe after a thousand more posts we’ll get some clarity.

 

[tonyrey]

Sorry, I don’t know how to do the fancy double quotes.

It’s quite simple. You select both posts: -QUOTE]-QUOTE]Why?-/quote]Why not?-/quote]You omit the hyphens of course.

You said that God created us for love and happiness…so if we achieve our purpose in hell…all of the people in hell love each other and are happy??? But, here you say it is to “shape our own destiny.” So, which purpose is our end? If you say “both” I can see how those who freely choose heaven have achieved both purposes. But, how can those in hell have achieved both? If they do…then what is the difference between the places? How can hell be a punishment? I don’t understand.

1. God created us to shape our own destiny.
2. God created us for love and happiness.
3. God doesn’t compel us to love others and be happy with them because our freedom is more important than anything else. #1 has priority over #2 because without freedom we are incapable of the highest form of love.

Would you prefer not to be free to choose what to believe and how to live?

If we choose hell we don’t torture ourselves deliberately or gratuitously. Our misery is the inevitable consequence of pride.

…
Wait, so if we aren’t punishing ourselves deliberately, then how does it make sense to say it is a choice? Choice implies volition, but you make it sound involuntary. Is it just a natural reaction? Prideful people will just make themselves miserable continuously for eternity?

It is a choice because we shall know the consequences of our decision to live for ourselves or others and are prepared to accept them if we value our freedom more than anything else -** without respecting the freedom of others**.

Do you envision hell as a place where God both sustain the existence of and allows his children to involuntarily torment themselves eternally?

We are in hell if we are prepared to be isolated with others who are also extremely selfish. Sartre was right up to a point: “L’enfer est autrui” - but he didn’t specify what type of people the others are. It is revealed in his play.

God doesn’t withhold the gift of faith in love and that is all that matters. If we accept the teaching of Jesus that we should love others and put it into practice we cannot possibly be damned.

I want to believe this but I just don’t think the RCC teaches this!

Where does it contradict it?

Further, who among us loves everyone around us to the greatest extent possible? All of us fail to do this to a certain extent, and that makes us all guilty and deserving of hell.

We are not expected to be perfect but to aim at perfection. God doesn’t demand the impossible!

Actually, according to the RCC’s theory of original sin, just existing in the first place makes us deserving of eternal hell.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

We shouldn’t go into that topic here, since the rules state we’re not supposed to go off-topic, but anyway, the reason failing to have faith causes one to go to hell is because it exposes one to God’s avenging justice. Aquinas states this explicitly. I may not be going to hell directly because I don’t have supernatural faith, but because I don’t have supernatural faith, I’m going to hell for whatever other mortal sin I may have committed at some point.

Your opinion is contradicted by the sublime prayer Jesus gave us:

“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

There is no conflict whatsoever between divine mercy and divine justice. After death we are given the opportunity to choose whether or not to forgive and love others regardless of how they have treated us.

It is sort of like if I couldn’t pay my medical bills and the doctor lets me die.

Me: “But…you’re killing me!!”
Doctor: "Now, now, don’t worry. I’m not killing you because you can’t pay me! That would be so unfair!
Me: “But…I’m dying from horrible cancer!”
Doctor: “Hmm yes that is unfortunate. But, you can’t pay your bill so good luck I guess.”

I’m sorry but how this is relevant?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Ever thought that God just might like us to be honest with God even if it is that we do not believe that God Is?

If one doesn’t believe than it is my opinion that one should not try to pretend that one believes.

Do you really think that God does not know that some do not believe that God Is?

Remember Thomas the Apostle, he was honest in his unbelief and he was “rewarded” for his honesty, at least that is my take on what happened.

Or you could say Jesus admonished Thomas for not believing without seeing.

You seem to be a Catholic arguing that atheism is justified as long as it is sincere.

Are you aware the Catechism defines atheism as a mortal sin?

Are you another one of those Catholics who doesn’t take the Catechism seriously?

Christ’s death on the cross should not be snubbed by atheists, since he died for them too.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You think?

This is what we have on the cigarette packages down here. Along with gangrenous feet, cancer ridden faces and plenty of other stomach turning examples of the results of smoking.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/414546-3x4-700x933.jpg

And guess what…it works. People, once they are confronted by what is likely to happen to them - every time they take a cigarette out of the packet, are deciding it is not worth the risk.

Now, if God could just give that heads up on hell…?

When I was an atheist I experienced personally what life would be like without God.

It was my personal hell.

So yes, God does give us a heads up on hell. It can’t be helped if some people are too stupid to know hell when they are in one on earth.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Maybe we should take seriously that each and every one of us nailed Jesus to the cross and we should be thankful that Jesus took ALL of the SINS of ALL to the cross.

If the GOOD NEWS is not Good News for ALL then it is not good news at all.

Father forgive THEM, THEY know not what they do.

IT IS FINISHED translates as PAID IN FULL.

Do you believe in the existence of hell? Or do you believe everyone goes to heaven?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Just like getting refused to a restaurant because you haven’t got a jacket. It was hell I tell you. . . .

For what its worth, I don’t think you are going to hell.
Our Father’s house has many rooms; neither you nor I deserve the penthouse suite.
And, there’s something wholesome about being satisfied with McDonald’s - gotta love the Big Mac combo.

On a negative note, what would Brad’s hell be like?
I suppose it would be shouting out alone in the empty darkness, hearing no reply.
No one is listening, because the second most important person in the drama is not listening.

That would be my guess. Sorry for the intrusion.

 

[TheSeeker2014]

Whether it be heaven or hell, there is no reason to show us what it is until we deserve to see it.

Showing people a photo of a horribly diseased lung won’t stop them from smoking.
Showing people the disfigurement of AIDS won’t stop them from homosexual lust.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Just for the record AIDS can be acquired many ways. Disease does not discriminate. Homosexual lust vs heterosexual lust Both can get AIDS. AIDS is caused by a virus, not by a genetic defect or by a lifestyle.
Plus to acquire AIDS sexually, you have to physically do something to obtain it. You cannot just have lust.
I apologize for nit picking, but I am really tired of people connecting homosexuality with AIDS when heterosexuals obtain AIDS all the time.
MYTH: HIV/AIDS is mostly a disease of homosexual men.
Primarily spread by heterosexual sex, HIV/AIDS now infects as many women as men worldwide. Although the disease was first recognized in the United States among gay men, it is also significantly spread among IV drug users. Internationally, it is more often a disease of heterosexuals.
rense.com/general73/homphn.htm
whale.to/vaccine/cantwell.html
apaa.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=178&Itemid=91

 

[Tom_Baum]

Or you could say Jesus admonished Thomas for not believing without seeing.

You seem to be a Catholic arguing that atheism is justified as long as it is sincere.

Are you aware the Catechism defines atheism as a mortal sin?

Are you another one of those Catholics who doesn’t take the Catechism seriously?

Christ’s death on the cross should not be snubbed by atheists, since he died for them too.

I am “one of those Catholics” who happen to believe that God appreciates honesty from people.

As far as, “Christ’s death on the cross should not be snubbed by atheists, since he died for them too.”

I happen to believe that what Jesus did , He did for EVERYONE.

I also believe that those that believe in God should be honest about their belief and that those who do not believe in God should be honest about not believing.

Do you think that someone who does not believe in God should lie about it?

Isn’t there a commandment about lying?

Even though they do not believe in God and by extension, probably, do not believe in the commandments, they are at least following one of the commandments concerning lying, should they lie to please you?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Do you believe in the existence of hell? Or do you believe everyone goes to heaven?

I believe in the “existence of hell” but I do NOT believe in your “conception” of hell.

I believe that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.”

I believe that God’s WILL will by done, I don’t know all of the details but I don’t need to know all of the details.

I believe that when Jesus said, “It is finished” which translates as PAID IN FULL, He meant it.

I believe that Jesus, Himself, went to hell and when He said, “…and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, He meant what He said and the power of “hell and spiritual death” have been crushed.

I believe in punishment, not in the blood-sucking horrors of an everlasting torment that some of my fellow human beings seem to believe.

Some seem to not only believe in it but to think that it is a “gift” of God to the “person” that is in this “horror” for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever, this is truly mind-boggling and disgusting to me.

I do not see the heaven where its inhabitants get “joy” from the “horrors” of those in hell, that is for ever and ever, even indirectly, as being very heavenly or Godly.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I believe in the “existence of hell” but I do NOT believe in your “conception” of hell.

Ah, you know my conception of hell? How does it differ from the place that Jesus described?

Do you believe in the conception of hell described by Jesus?

“Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” (Matt. 13:40-42)

Please answer my earlier question.

Do you believe everyone ultimately goes to heaven? Yes or no?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Isn’t there a commandment about lying?

Even though they do not believe in God and by extension, probably, do not believe in the commandments, they are at least following one of the commandments concerning lying, should they lie to please you?

There is a commandment against lying, and lying to oneself is included in that commandment.

The atheist lies to himself when he says there is no God, and he believes his own lie.

That is a far cry from sincerity. “The fool says in his heart there is no God.” Psalms 14:1

 

[tonyrey]

Remember the parable about the person that was forgiven a great deal but then would NOT FORGIVE a little deal from a fellow servant?

Seems to me that it was said that he would not be released until he paid it all, it DID NOT say that he would NEVER be released, did it?

Maybe God accomplished more on the cross than many think possible.

Could be we are getting “our conception” of justice, which seems to be light-years away from anything even resembling justice, mixed up with God’s Justice.

Just as the old saying goes, “God created us in His Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us” implies that some may not…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I apologize for nit picking, but I am really tired of people connecting homosexuality with AIDS when heterosexuals obtain AIDS all the time.

They do NOT get AIDS all the time. Please talk sense!

Heterosexual sex does not in and of itself produce AIDS.

If that were so, every child would be born with AIDS.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There are over 1,000 post and 14,000 views, so this thread may be closed soon.

Thank you all for participating.

May God protect you all from he who prowls about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

 

[tonyrey]

OK – from a few randomly selected posts on this thread.

Well, we’re off to a good start. If it exists, it’s not even Christian. And not even created for us:

But we shouldn’t fear it (so why it’s there I’m not sure).

Although if it is founded, it’s not just a place where it’s an absence of God. It’s…

Or is it:

Sounds pretty harmless. And…

Sounds like a bad day at the office. And…

Just like getting refused to a restaurant because you haven’t got a jacket. It was hell I tell you. And more:

I murdered 35 people and now I’m really sad. But no-one wants to go there, surely. Except some do apparently:

So there must be lots of people there. Although:

Not many? Yet the greek fathers are of a different opinion:

Among the Greek Fathers, Irenaeus, Basil, and Cyril of Jerusalem are typical in interpreting passages such as Matthew 22:14 as meaning that the majority will be consigned to hell. St. John Chrysostom, an outstanding doctor of the Eastern tradition, was particularly pessimistic: “Among thousands of people there are not a hundred who will arrive at their salvation, and I am not even certain of that number, so much perversity is there among the young and so much negligence among the old.”

But even the Pope isn’t sure about it existing! A possibility?

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

So do we choose it? Yes we do.

Oh, sorry, no we don’t.

So maybe we’re not really sure what this hell is really all about:

Yet it is Eternal Punishment. Jesus says so.

Or maybe people chasing shadows:

But if it was eternal torment, who in their right mind would take joy from it:

'Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned." - newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

And Charles is quite pleased about it as well.

Bet he doesn’t take the blue pill. He* wants* to know.
Not all those views are inconsistent and, as I pointed out in another post, Aquinas explained that it doesn’t mean the saints enjoy the suffering of the damned. That would be evil.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ah, you know my conception of hell? How does it differ from the place that Jesus described?

Do you believe in the conception of hell described by Jesus?

“Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” (Matt. 13:40-42)

Please answer my earlier question.

Do you believe everyone ultimately goes to heaven? Yes or no?

I believe in the hell that God granted me the “experience” of experiencing.

I experienced “hell and spiritual death” and there are those that get the two confused and there are those that unknowingly combine the two.

Jesus said lots of things concerning hell and judgment and salvation, not just the things that you mention.

As far as, “Do you believe everyone ultimately goes to heaven? Yes or no?”

Of course, I believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the World, don’t you?

 

[Tom_Baum]

There is a commandment against lying, and lying to oneself is included in that commandment.

The atheist lies to himself when he says there is no God, and he believes his own lie.

That is a far cry from sincerity. “The fool says in his heart there is no God.” Psalms 14:1

Doesn’t it also say in the bible, "But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

 

[Tom_Baum]

“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us” implies that some may not…

I know what it says in the Lord’s Prayer and that is if we forgive completely than we are forgiven completely, but I asked about something different, could you reply to what I asked, which was:

Remember the parable about the person that was forgiven a great deal but then would NOT FORGIVE a little deal from a fellow servant?

Seems to me that it was said that he would not be released until he paid it all, it DID NOT say that he would NEVER be released, did it?

Maybe God accomplished more on the cross than many think possible.

Could be we are getting “our conception” of justice, which seems to be light-years away from anything even resembling justice, mixed up with God’s Justice.

Just as the old saying goes, “God created us in His Image and Likeness and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

 

[Bradski]

None of those points are contradictory.

You didn’t ask for contradictory – although some of those obviously are. You asked for differences.

Why don’t you give a list of what these very specific ideas each of us Catholics has given, and how they differ from the others here on the thread.

Every Christian on this thread believes it exists yet even the Pope thought it only a possibility. Is that enough of a difference? Someone thought it wasn’t even Christian. Others think it’s the equivalent to a bad hair day and others that you are being tortured incessantly. I think there’s a difference in there that’s not too hard to put a finger on. Some think it’s a good thing – they enjoy the thought of sinners being there, and others would rather not know. Some think the place is packed and others empty. Another two ideas that are not the same. i.e. different. In fact, contradictory.

You even think that wife beaters should go there but not genocidal lunatics. Quite a difference. Although I’m putting your comments about old Grandad down as hyperbole. But that is part of the problem. Hyperbole, exaggeration, flights of fancy, wishful thinking, speculation…you name it, we’ve had it in spades throughout a thousand posts.

And in all that time, no-one, but no-one, knows of anyone who deserves to be there.

And here’s the latest and perhaps one of the last:

When I was an atheist I experienced personally what life would be like without God. It was my personal hell.

That in answer to a question as to why we don’t know what it will be like. And according to Charles (contradicting earlier comments) it’s just life without God. In which case, if this is my hell, then I highly recommend it.