The Fear of Hell

[Techno2000]

Now, if God could just give that heads up on hell…?

Lol, here we go again, you don’t believe, because you** don’t want to believe** .

Jesus said unto him, “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Tom_Baum]

Actually this is from Jesus who told some saint or mystic, can’t remember, in a private revelation.

OK, so you repeated it, do you have any thoughts on this statement that you repeated?

This statement being: “If the Devil would repent, Hell would cease to exist.”

Do you think that it is from Jesus thru “some saint or mystic”?

If so, do you think that “the Devil” will “repent”, so that “Hell” will “cease to exist”?

Any comment on the questions that I submitted:

"Are you saying that the devil has God over a barrel, so to speak?

Are you saying that with all that God did in the Incarnation and thru other things, associated with the Incarnation, that the devil is in charge?

Are you saying that God created someone, for it was God Who created the devil, that is more powerful than God?

Are you saying that it is in the devil’s hands and that God’s Hands are tied, so to speak?

Are you saying that ALL that God did is NOT enough but if the devil repented, it would be enough?"

 

[Mappie60]

Why would anybody be afraid of hell? Man made invention that’s all.

 

[Techno2000]

OK, so you repeated it, do you have any thoughts on this statement that you repeated?

This statement being: “If the Devil would repent, Hell would cease to exist.”

Do you think that it is from Jesus thru “some saint or mystic”?

If so, do you think that “the Devil” will “repent”, so that “Hell” will “cease to exist”?

Any comment on the questions that I submitted:

"Are you saying that the devil has God over a barrel, so to speak?

Are you saying that with all that God did in the Incarnation and thru other things, associated with the Incarnation, that the devil is in charge?

Are you saying that God created someone, for it was God Who created the devil, that is more powerful than God?

Are you saying that it is in the devil’s hands and that God’s Hands are tied, so to speak?

Are you saying that ALL that God did is NOT enough but if the devil repented, it would be enough?"

And He replied to me:

• Salvation does not depend on today, yesterday or tomorrow, but on the last moment. For
  that reason you must repent constantly. You are saved because I have saved you, and not
  for your merits. Only the degree of the glory that you receive in eternity depends on your
  merits. Therefore, you must constantly practice two things: repentance for your sins and
  frequently saying: “Oh my Jesus, in your hands I entrust my soul.”

One should not be scared of the judgment. Jesus, like a humble lamb, surrounds souls with
an indescribable love. The soul that yearns to be clean arrives at the judgment to be able to
be with the same Love, with whom it will be enamored eternally. However, the proud soul
detests this Love, she herself avoids it, and this in itself is hell.

Once, supported on Jesus’ shoulder, I cried asking him:

• Why did you create hell?

In order to answer me, Jesus took me to the judgment of a very sinful soul, to whom its sins were pardoned. Satan was furious:

• You are not fair! - he shouted. - This soul was mine all its life! He committed many sins,
  whereas I committed only one, and You created hell for me.
• Lucifer! - Jesus with infinite love answered him -. Did you ever ask to be pardoned by
  Me?
  Then Lucifer, besides himself, shouted:
• That never! That never will I do!

Then Jesus turned towards me, telling me:

• You have seen it, if he asked to be pardoned even once, hell would not exist.

atonementbooklets.com/p/victoriousqueen.pdf

 

[Techno2000]

Why would anybody be afraid of hell? Man made invention that’s all.

Ok, that settles that.

 

[Bradski]

Every person is exactly equal in worth and dignity, by virtue of our being a member of the human race. And I think that even you believe this, except that you haven’t been able to articulate this. Else, why are you so opposed to the idea of hell for, say, Pol Pot?

I’m opposed to the idea of torturing anything, let alone people. I was going to say that whatever your crime, being tortured for eternity is completely off the scale as an acceptable punishment. But even saying that gives it a kind of relative position on some sort of measure of acceptability which it simply doesn’t have. Me saying that it is obviously over the top might well enjoinder a reply: ‘Well, how about a few million years? That’s a lot less than eternity’. It is not to be considered. At all. Your idea of hell is obscene.

Because you understand that even how horrific Pol Pot was…he does not deserve eternal torture…because he is a member of the human race…and inherently worthy. You recoil at the thought–because he has dignity.

So he doesn’t, but someone who beats his wife does? Maybe you need to rethink your opinion on your co-workers grandfather. You seem to think that hell is either deserved or not depending on which way the argument is going.

I asked earlier if anyone would like to nominate anyone they think is actually in hell. You can actually make up someone if you think that no-one in real life has done enough evil. But what sort of response has that got? A bit fat zero. Because no-one is inhuman enough to actually thinks the punishment fits any actual or even imagined crime.

I suggest that it doesn’t bother you one bit to consider the idea that an amoeba would suffer in eternity, right? Why? Because amoebas are not…worthy of anything.

I’m pretty sure that amoebas don’t suffer and would in any case find it difficult to grasp the concept of sin. And you want to attempt to draw a comparison between people and single celled life? There is, obviously, a difference between how we treat a eukaryotic and how we treat the guy who delivers the mail. You are also confusing (or trying to suggest, for the sake of your argument) that my rejection of the idea of eternal punishment for anyone is therefore an admission on my part that everyone is therefore equal. It isn’t.

Let’s look at this a bit deeper, Bradski. Connect the dots. Why are they “equal in the eyes of the law”? This ethos must be based on some idea. What is this idea?

C’mon, PR, you know full well what it is. It’s a basic foundation of almost every legal system on the planet. You get tried, without prejudice (which means without pre-judging) for the crime for which you are accused. So if Bryant got caught shoplifting and the Bishop of Sydney was charged with exactly the same crime, the fact that he’s a murderous psychopath and the other a man of the cloth means diddly squat when it comes to deciding their guilt or otherwise. They are ‘equal in the eyes of the law’.

Again, we don’t start with the premise that every living creature is “equal in the eyes of the law”. That would be absurd, right? We don’t give an amoeba rights over an infant. We don’t give a kitty rights over Pol Pot. We don’t give a snake rights over Hugh Jackman. Why?

Because kittens and snakes are not people. But we give equal rights to all people. We treat all equally in the eyes of the law. Everyone is treated equally when it comes to justice. But that doesn’t mean that everyone has equal dignity or worth. God can treat us all the same if He likes, but I never have and I’m not likely to start now. Let’s see if you do:

Bryant needs a kidney. So does someone else. The someone else is a survivor of the massacre who saw his wife gunned down in front of him. He now works for Medicin Sans Frontiere and has dedicated his life to helping others. There’s only one kidney available. Who gets it? Who is more worthy of receiving it? Who deserves it more? Who is the better man? Who has lived his life with dignity and who hasn’t? Forget what God thinks – I want to know what you think.

Lol, here we go again, you don’t believe, because you** don’t want to believe**
.”

No Techno. I don’t believe because…it’s unbelievable. And to add to that, you have no idea what it’s like yourself. In fact, if I asked everyone on this forum of their idea of hell I would get a different answer every time. Have you ever considered why that is?

 

[Techno2000]

No Techno. I don’t believe because…it’s unbelievable. And to add to that, you have no idea what it’s like yourself. In fact, if I asked everyone on this forum of their idea of hell I would get a different answer every time. Have you ever considered why that is?

If it was truly unbelievable then nobody would have believed it.

 

[Bradski]

If it was truly unbelievable then nobody would have believed it.

Notwithstanding that I am firmly of the opinion that people don’t really believe it, the fact that people say they believe in X doesn’t make X true. Couple that with the fact that hardly anyone agrees on exactly what X is makes it even less likely to be true.

Let me make a simple point: Your version of hell is not the same as, let’s say, Tony’s. One of you is wrong. Tony’s is not the same as, let’s say, PR’s. Two of you are wrong. PR’s version is not the same as Geddie’s. Do you see where I’m going with this? The more people I ask about hell and what it is like, the less likely I am to believe it.

When you all reach some agreement, let me know.

 

[Techno2000]

Notwithstanding that I am firmly of the opinion that people don’t really believe it, the fact that people say they believe in X doesn’t make X true. Couple that with the fact that hardly anyone agrees on exactly what X is makes it even less likely to be true.

Let me make a simple point: Your version of hell is not the same as, let’s say, Tony’s. One of you is wrong. Tony’s is not the same as, let’s say, PR’s. Two of you are wrong. PR’s version is not the same as Geddie’s. Do you see where I’m going with this? The more people I ask about hell and what it is like, the less likely I am to believe it.

When you all reach some agreement, let me know.

Right, it’s all speculation on the invisible supernatural realm, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, also there are lots of NDE stories about people getting a “movie trailer” preview of Hell.

 

[PRmerger]

Notwithstanding that I am firmly of the opinion that people don’t really believe it, the fact that people say they believe in X doesn’t make X true. Couple that with the fact that hardly anyone agrees on exactly what X is makes it even less likely to be true.

Let me make a simple point: Your version of hell is not the same as, let’s say, Tony’s. One of you is wrong. Tony’s is not the same as, let’s say, PR’s. Two of you are wrong. PR’s version is not the same as Geddie’s. Do you see where I’m going with this? The more people I ask about hell and what it is like, the less likely I am to believe it.

When you all reach some agreement, let me know.

Well, that’s to be expected, Bradski, since the Word of God is not that explicit about the details of hell.

I suppose the same thing could be said about quarks.

There’s not that much of a consensus about the details of quarks.

But you’re not going to deny that quarks exist because there’s an absence of consensus on them, yeah?

It’s kind of like when ancient folks were describing how they knew the world wasn’t flat. Not much agreement on the details.

Given that, would it have been smart to assume that the world was indeed flat since some folks couldn’t agree on the math?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I’m opposed to the idea of torturing anything, let alone people. I was going to say that whatever your crime, being tortured for eternity is completely off the scale as an acceptable punishment. But even saying that gives it a kind of relative position on some sort of measure of acceptability which it simply doesn’t have. Me saying that it is obviously over the top might well enjoinder a reply: ‘Well, how about a few million years? That’s a lot less than eternity’. It is not to be considered. At all. Your idea of hell is obscene.

I agree with you that torture is obscene and heinous. In fact, I don’t think it is just for any human government to use it for any reason. However, isn’t it possible that a limited amount/duration/whatever of torture is less outrageously unjust than an unlimited amount/duration/whatever? Why can’t this be considered? Surely there are some people who have done things so evil that they must be punished? Shouldn’t Bryant have to face some punishment much worse than jail or execution? Just a thought. I agree that unending torment is deeply unjust, but maybe some amount or punishment in the next life is needed to “balance the scales of justice” or something like that.

No Techno. I don’t believe because…it’s unbelievable. And to add to that, you have no idea what it’s like yourself. In fact, if I asked everyone on this forum of their idea of hell I would get a different answer every time. Have you ever considered why that is?

This is an excellent observation. I wouldn’t say that the RCC’s conception of hell is literally “unbelievable” in the sense that it can’t be held by a rational person because it implies a logical contradiction. However, it does seem to serve as a defeater for the idea that God is “good” or that life is worth living, or that there is anything such as justice at all.

You have made other points about the ambiguity of hell being further proof that is unjust. I would tend to agree with this assertion, but I hadn’t considered it before. The punishment associated with just and honest laws are not “hidden” in my opinion. If the punishment of hell were not “hidden” in an unjust way, then it does seem like there would be more consensus about the nature of hell. General disagreement seems to serve as evidence that either hell 1) doesn’t exist at all or, 2) the law prescribing it as a punishment is unjust in the sense that it is hidden from reason.

How can we be expected to follow a law when the penalty is inscrutable? This objection deserves an answer.

We seem to be short on answers here, although I would like to acknowledge the heroic attempts by tonyrey. I still don’t quite understand, but I’m trying to figure it out. Thank you all for your efforts.

 

[Bradski]

Well, that’s to be expected, Bradski, since the Word of God is not that explicit about the details of hell.

Likewise heaven, I’d suggest. But then why is everyone so explicit about these concepts? Can I suggest a word that is applicable here? Conjecture.

If anyone is asked about hell (or heaven), then they all seem to have a very specific idea of what it entails. But it’s all conjecture. Assumption. Based on bits of scripture, paintings, hearsay, fire and brimstone preachin’, films, idiotic stories of the ‘been-there-seen-that’ variety, chats with dead relatives, NDEs, lengthy yet verbatim reports from tortured souls with a penchant for 19th century verbiage, fear and perhaps hope (for those with a more sadistic personality).

And everyone wants to go to heaven but no-one expects to go to hell. And no-one can even suggest anyone who actually deserves it. Everyone sees the need for a stick but no-one wants to wield it. The place is empty. As an atheist I can confidently tell you that it is one of the most bizarre and sadistic concepts that any religion could conceive. And we can’t wait to tell the kids! Did you touch yourself there Johnny? Lord Almighty, you sinner, you will burn for ever!

Not only is it completely unbelievable, for anyone with an ounce of compassion it doesn’t even earn the right to be considered for belief. If this thread has taught me anything at all, it’s that in this regard no-one knows what the hell (pun intended) they are talking about.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

We do achieve our purpose in hell! We are created to shape our own destiny and that is exactly what occurs in heaven and hell as it does on earth.

Sorry, I don’t know how to do the fancy double quotes. You said that God created us for love and happiness…so if we achieve our purpose in hell…all of the people in hell love each other and are happy??? But, here you say it is to “shape our own destiny.” So, which purpose is our end? If you say “both” I can see how those who freely choose heaven have achieved both purposes. But, how can those in hell have achieved both? If they do…then what is the difference between the places? How can hell be a punishment? I don’t understand.

If we choose hell we don’t torture ourselves deliberately or gratuitously. Our misery is the inevitable consequence of pride…

Wait, so if we aren’t punishing ourselves deliberately, then how does it make sense to say it is a choice? Choice implies volition, but you make it sound involuntary. Is it just a natural reaction? Prideful people will just make themselves miserable continuously for eternity? Do you envision hell as a place where God both sustain the existence of and allows his children to involuntarily torment themselves eternally?

God doesn’t withhold the gift of faith in love and that is all that matters. If we accept the teaching of Jesus that we should love others and put it into practice we cannot possibly be damned.

I want to believe this but I just don’t think the RCC teaches this! Further, who among us loves everyone around us to the greatest extent possible? All of us fail to do this to a certain extent, and that makes us all guilty and deserving of hell. Actually, according to the RCC’s theory of original sin, just existing in the first place makes us deserving of eternal hell. We shouldn’t go into that topic here, since the rules state we’re not supposed to go off-topic, but anyway, the reason failing to have faith causes one to go to hell is because it exposes one to God’s avenging justice. Aquinas states this explicitly. I may not be going to hell directly because I don’t have supernatural faith, but because I don’t have supernatural faith, I’m going to hell for whatever other mortal sin I may have committed at some point.

It is sort of like if I couldn’t pay my medical bills and the doctor lets me die.

Me: “But…you’re killing me!!”
Doctor: "Now, now, don’t worry. I’m not killing you because you can’t pay me! That would be so unfair!
Me: “But…I’m dying from horrible cancer!”
Doctor: “Hmm yes that is unfortunate. But, you can’t pay your bill so good luck I guess.”

 

[Techno2000]

Sorry, I don’t know how to do the fancy double quotes. You said that God created us for love and happiness…so if we achieve our purpose in hell…all of the people in hell love each other and are happy??? But, here you say it is to “shape our own destiny.” So, which purpose is our end? If you say “both” I can see how those who freely choose heaven have achieved both purposes. But, how can those in hell have achieved both? If they do…then what is the difference between the places? How can hell be a punishment? I don’t understand.

People who are going to hell are living in hell now,they just continue on in the next life.

 

[PRmerger]

Likewise heaven, I’d suggest.

You are correct.

But then why is everyone so explicit about these concepts?

I don’t think anyone has said anything explicit as far as the details of hell.

And what what you say we Believers disagree on are simply minutiae.

You are making much ado about nothing.

Can I suggest a word that is applicable here? Conjecture.

A better word would be: logic.

We understand some things about God. We understand some things about love. We understand some things about sin. We understand some things about hell…

The rest we distill from logic and reason of what we do understand.

If anyone is asked about hell (or heaven), then they all seem to have a very specific idea of what it entails.

Why don’t you give a list of what these very specific ideas each of us Catholics has given, and how they differ from the others here on the thread.

That might be helpful.

 

[PRmerger]

Not only is it completely unbelievable, for anyone with an ounce of compassion it doesn’t even earn the right to be considered for belief. If this thread has taught me anything at all, it’s that in this regard no-one knows what the hell (pun intended) they are talking about.

Have you been in any forums discussing dark matter and string theory, Bradski?

There are some very smart people offering their thoughts on these concepts…and if we use the same paradigm for them that you are using here, we would have to say “no one knows what the hell they are talking about” and “I’m going to presume that dark matter and string theory are figments of some stupid scientists’ imaginations”.

Except…that would be a

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[Bradski]

Why don’t you give a list of what these very specific ideas each of us Catholics has given, and how they differ from the others here on the thread.

OK – from a few randomly selected posts on this thread.

First, I would suggest that there is no such thing as a “Christian” hell.

Well, we’re off to a good start. If it exists, it’s not even Christian. And not even created for us:

Our LORD never said that Hell was created for human life, but rather, “the devil and his angels.”

But we shouldn’t fear it (so why it’s there I’m not sure).

…the fear of hell is unfounded if we have free will…

Although if it is founded, it’s not just a place where it’s an absence of God. It’s…

…a place of everlasting suffering.

Or is it:

On judgement day, Jesus acknowledges their decision and allows them to be separated from Him. IOW- They tell Jesus “I don’t want you in my life” and Jesus says “ok”.

Sounds pretty harmless. And…

It just might be that hell is really nothing more than the grinding recognition of the stupidity of choosing to get as far away from God as possible.

Sounds like a bad day at the office. And…

Hell is a bad place; I know everyone would agree.
If heaven can be compared to attending a great feast, hell would be like being thrown out or not allowed in.
If heaven is described as a fulfillment of what we desire most, hell will be seen as an emptiness, a hunger, a place of woe, of pain.

Just like getting refused to a restaurant because you haven’t got a jacket. It was hell I tell you. And more:

Many people have theorized that Hell may in fact be more a place of longing and sadness then a pure torture chamber.

I murdered 35 people and now I’m really sad. But no-one wants to go there, surely. Except some do apparently:

Also, heavy metal songs like “Highway to Hell,” make it the object of their desire.

So there must be lots of people there. Although:

Many people have theorized that Hell may in fact be more a place of longing and sadness then a pure torture chamber. Where you are cut off from the source of happiness, God, through your own volition. It may very well be that there are not many souls in Hell at all.

Not many? Yet the greek fathers are of a different opinion:

Among the Greek Fathers, Irenaeus, Basil, and Cyril of Jerusalem are typical in interpreting passages such as Matthew 22:14 as meaning that the majority will be consigned to hell. St. John Chrysostom, an outstanding doctor of the Eastern tradition, was particularly pessimistic: “Among thousands of people there are not a hundred who will arrive at their salvation, and I am not even certain of that number, so much perversity is there among the young and so much negligence among the old.”

But even the Pope isn’t sure about it existing! A possibility?

In a General Audience talk of July 28, 1999, the Pope…’Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell-and even less the improper use of biblical images-must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!”

So do we choose it? Yes we do.

IWe choose hell. Hell is a place without God. If we reject God and do not choose Him it is our choice.

Oh, sorry, no we don’t.

People don’t choose hell…they choose sin…

So maybe we’re not really sure what this hell is really all about:

I have a feeling we are completely mis-interpreting hell in the bible.

Yet it is Eternal Punishment. Jesus says so.

"Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Or maybe people chasing shadows:

From Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft, “Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.” That is hell.

But if it was eternal torment, who in their right mind would take joy from it:

Intrigued, I googled it and you’re right, Aquinas argues that seeing hell increases the joys of those in heaven:

'Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned." - newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

And Charles is quite pleased about it as well.

i do take pleasure in the thought that God metes our his justice as he will, and that some souls are justly in hell, and that we should not grieve over God’s justice.

Bet he doesn’t take the blue pill. He* wants* to know.

 

[Bradski]

Have you been in any forums discussing dark matter and string theory, Bradski?

One person or another having the correct explanation of dark matter doesn’t affect how I live my life. I don’t consider it.

If you live your life with no consideration of hell, then what is the point of you believing in it?

 

[PRmerger]

One person or another having the correct explanation of dark matter doesn’t affect how I live my life. I don’t consider it.

If you live your life with no consideration of hell, then what is the point of you believing in it?

So let’s at least agree about this: it’s irrelevant as to the truth of a concept whether people discussing it “don’t know what the hell they’re talking about”, yeah?

 

[tonyrey]

Why would anybody be afraid of hell? Man made invention that’s all.

Welcome to the forum! I’m sorry to disillusion you but your statement is an excellent example of the genetic fallacy - and not a rational argument…

BTW Are you afraid of becoming corrupt or doesn’t it matter?