The Fear of Hell

[tonyrey]

Do you think that us mere mortals here on earth should be totally unconcerned if someone was in “self-inflicted” torture here on earth?

Of course we should be concerned but when we realise the person is determined to ignore others and be totally independent we also realise we shouldn’t waste further time and energy when we could be helping some one else.

Don’t you think that God would want us to maybe make some kind of effort to help this person?

Obviously but there comes a point at which some one more deserving of our help should have priority.

Why should all caring leave us once we get to what many call heaven?

It doesn’t but in heaven we know who despises anyone who loves God and doesn’t deserve our pity.

This is merely my opinion but I do NOT think that God has created anyone that is beyond the “cleaning-up” ability, so to speak, of God.

Jesus thought otherwise when He gave us the parable of the sheep and the goats. Do you think He made a mistake?

Could be why God came up with a Plan even before creation and why going to the cross was/is such a central part of God’s Plan.

That also implies Jesus was wrong.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Of course we should be concerned but when we realise the person is determined to ignore others and be totally independent we also realise we shouldn’t waste further time and energy when we could be helping some one else.

As Jesus said, when you can’t get through to people, shake the dust of their town from your feet and move on to the next town.

 

[tonyrey]

This is one of the main reasons, I still wonder what the truth is about hell, somehow I just dont see God creating a place specifically for satan and the other fallen, but then, saying, well, I will also use it for human souls who have rejected me…that does not sound like something God would do imo, seems like he would create another place for human souls, since humans and angels are ENTIRELY different types of beings, so hell for one, would not necessarily be ‘hell’ for the other or vice verse.

However I also believe that humans retain their free will upon death, I have seen nothing to suggest that our free will is a temporary thing, God created us as IMMORTAL beings, meaning our souls never die, well, at birth, we are gifted free will, seems strange at our death it would suddenly be taken away.

Having said this, I kind of think at the time of our death, or milli-seconds before the actual death, we are given one final chance, our eyes are opened to the truth at this time, so there is no more guessing about Gods existence, the afterlife, etc. we see the whole truth in that moment and then we can choose, of course, some people will likely still choose to ‘go away’ from God, if they had no use for him in life, that probably wont change in the after life, so they will be quite content in hell, but some will recognize the error of their ways in life and probably sob at how they could have been so blind, I believe these people will accept God at this moment, and some may go to hell for awhile and then recognize they made a mistake and call out to God.

But the real debate here is ‘free will’ if it is temporary or immortal like everything else related to God is, if it is immortal, we still retain our choice, even after death, if not, than this gift from God is limited time only. ( those words are usually not associated with God and his actions).

You are right in believing we never lose our free will but that implies we can always reject God’s love. Purgatory exists for that very reason, We are given every possible opportunity to repent and make amends for the suffering we have caused. It is hardly likely we shall ever change our mind when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell. Free will doesn’t mean we are forever chopping and changing at the slightest whim - and can never decide what we really want! That certainly would be a form of slavery…

 

[tonyrey]

As Jesus said, when you can’t get through to people, shake the dust of their town from your feet and move on to the next town.

And why it should be different in the next life? There is continuity between the way we think and behave; otherwise for millions of people there would be no point in existing in a world dominated by injustice with nothing to look forward to when they die. The reality of evil points to two possibilities:

Life “is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

or

"'Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[tonyrey]

And why it should be different in the next life? There is continuity between the way we think and behave; otherwise for millions of people there would be no point in existing in a world dominated by injustice with nothing to look forward to when they die. The reality of evil points to two possibilities:

Life “is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

or

"'Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I wish to add that none of us need fear hell if we follow the clear commands given to us by Jesus. That is all we need to know.

 

[tonyrey]

In that case how did free will originate?

Please explain how one obtains consciousness and how protein produces free will. As you believe in God, John, it is more logical that He gives us free will…

 

[tonyrey]

Millions of people in this world don’t have to be afraid of hell because they are in hell already! The difference is they’re not responsible for their misery and suffering. It is only right and just that those who **are **responsible should have a taste of hell themselves. Whether it is forever depends on them; if they don’t regret what they have done or failed to do there is no reason why they shouldn’t have more than a taste… and it doesn’t have to be imposed on them. They simply see the horrific consequences of their decisions in every detail from start to finish. If they lack compassion they do not deserve compassion…

 

[tonyrey]

Millions of people in this world don’t have to be afraid of hell because they are in hell already! The difference is they’re not responsible for their misery and suffering. It is only right and just that those who **are **responsible should have a taste of hell themselves. Whether it is forever depends on them; if they don’t regret what they have done or failed to do there is no reason why they shouldn’t have more than a taste… and it doesn’t have to be imposed on them. They simply see the horrific consequences of their decisions in every detail from start to finish. If they lack compassion they do not deserve compassion…

It is important to note that retribution is not inflicted by God but self-inflicted, either consciously or unconsciously. If the body is poisoned by what we eat it is due to pride, weakness or ignorance. If the mind is poisoned by our thoughts it is also due to pride, weakness or ignorance. Whatever the cause may be we suffer even if it is not our fault but the difference is that there is no excuse or remedy for pride which makes us think we know better than others and are superior to others. The physical suffering caused by pride ends at death but the mental suffering cannot end unless we choose to love others, be liberated from ourselves and recognise that we are all equal in the sight of God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Blaise Pascal in *Pensees *offers that we should always live as if we had eight hours left to live.

When he said this he was at this point conscious of his own mortality due to his terminal illness. The thought is not that we should live in constant fear of death of the body, but that we should live in constant regard for the death of the soul, which will happen in hell. The death of the body is inevitable. The death of the soul is not at all inevitable because of free will, and therefore all the more reason to be daily fearful of falling into soul-killing sin.

 

[mikekle]

We are given every possible opportunity to repent and make amends for the suffering we have caused. It is hardly likely we shall ever change our mind when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell.

I disagree with that, if I were an atheist living my entire life constantly going after material things, without any thought of God in my life, and upon my death, my eyes were suddenly opened to the truth…I MOST certainly would change my tune REAL quick, and repent for all that I have done in life.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree with that, if I were an atheist living my entire life constantly going after material things, without any thought of God in my life, and upon my death, my eyes were suddenly opened to the truth…I MOST certainly would change my tune REAL quick, and repent for all that I have done in life.

This is not consonant with reality.

Even when we have a partial view of the really bad consequences of sin we choose to sin anyway.

So there’s no reason to believe that when are eyes are opened at our death, we would choose differently.

It’s kind of like a teenager saying, “I know I’m lazy at home, but when I get a job I will actually do the things I’m supposed to do.”

We all know that how his character at home has given us an image of how he will be at work.

 

[Aloysium]

I disagree with that, if I were an atheist living my entire life constantly going after material things, without any thought of God in my life, and upon my death, my eyes were suddenly opened to the truth…I MOST certainly would change my tune REAL quick, and repent for all that I have done in life.

That is why it is said that there are no atheists in foxholes. However, there may be some people who hate God for depriving them of what was always illusion: the power, the possessions, the honour and the pleasure, perhaps the hate itself. They may like Lot’s wife look back, unable to let go. The eternal yearning for what will never be, actually never really was their’s, may be their hell.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I disagree with that, if I were an atheist living my entire life constantly going after material things, without any thought of God in my life, and upon my death, my eyes were suddenly opened to the truth…I MOST certainly would change my tune REAL quick, and repent for all that I have done in life.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it does not seem sincere for us to repent at the hour of death, when we could have repented long before. The Lord will know whether in our hearts the repentance is sincere or whether we are just gambling on a get-out-of-jail card.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I disagree with that, if I were an atheist living my entire life constantly going after material things, without any thought of God in my life, and upon my death, my eyes were suddenly opened to the truth…I MOST certainly would change my tune REAL quick, and repent for all that I have done in life.

That would not seem like a viable strategy. It’s quite possible that one will not have an hour’s notice of one’s death. Car accidents, plane accidents, heart attacks, strokes, and other events that may cause death can be rather sudden or leave one unconscious for what remains of their life.

Also, it doesn’t seem like an honest strategy. Then again perhaps there are people that really become convinced while in the process of experiencing death.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Also, it doesn’t seem like an honest strategy. Then again perhaps there are people that really become convinced while in the process of experiencing death.

Experiencing death in and of itself does not necessarily produce conviction, since some may not repent at the hour of death, so your “perhaps” is well taken.

 

[tonyrey]

• We are given every possible opportunity to repent and make amends for the suffering we have caused. It is hardly likely we shall ever change our mind when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell.*

I stipulated “when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell” which cannot be the case if our eyes are suddenly opened to the truth.

 

[Bradski]

That would not seem like a viable strategy. It’s quite possible that one will not have an hour’s notice of one’s death. Car accidents, plane accidents, heart attacks, strokes, and other events that may cause death can be rather sudden or leave one unconscious for what remains of their life.

My wife and I were involved in a vehicle accident a few years ago. The whole episode lasted just a few seconds (although, as is common in these type of events, it seemed like a lot longer). In any case, there was certainly enough time to realise what was about to happen, hope that it wasn’t going to hurt too much and worry about the kids.

If there are opportunities to repent in situations like this, then it didn’t present itself to me on this occasion. Maybe God knew that it wasn’t my time (although I certainly did). Or maybe he’s got me down as a lost cause. But I’ll probably go with the third option.

 

[tonyrey]

That would not seem like a viable strategy. It’s quite possible that one will not have an hour’s notice of one’s death. Car accidents, plane accidents, heart attacks, strokes, and other events that may cause death can be rather sudden or leave one unconscious for what remains of their life.

Also, it doesn’t seem like an honest strategy. Then again perhaps there are people that really become convinced while in the process of experiencing death.

Indeed. If we’re physically unconscious it doesn’t follow that we’re totally unconscious. A friend of mine was in a coma before she died but she groaned on hearing some one playing a piano…

 

[tonyrey]

My wife and I were involved in a vehicle accident a few years ago. The whole episode lasted just a few seconds (although, as is common in these type of events, it seemed like a lot longer). In any case, there was certainly enough time to realise what was about to happen, hope that it wasn’t going to hurt too much and worry about the kids.

If there are opportunities to repent in situations like this, then it didn’t present itself to me on this occasion. Maybe God knew that it wasn’t my time (although I certainly did). Or maybe he’s got me down as a lost cause. But I’ll probably go with the third option.

Even if it’s a close shave it doesn’t really indicate what happens when we do die. And I don’t think we have to be so precise. The opportunity may well come just after we die given that for most of us it’s the most important event of our existence.

 

[tonyrey]

I stipulated “when we have full knowledge of all the implications of heaven and hell” which cannot be the case if our eyes are suddenly opened to the truth.