The Fear of Hell

[PRmerger]

Nevertheless, if anyone adds anything to what Jesus said, I feel quite free to accept or reject it.

You would accept it based on…what?
And reject it based on…what?

 

[openmind77]

How do you know He will be back “pretty soon”, and how do you know that “all errors will be corrected” then?

The signs of his Return are all there - millions of people are expecting it to happen.

Even as we discuss this here, people are being divided into goats and sheep (per Matthew 25 31-46).

As for errors being corrected, when he is once again among us in the world, all we have to do is ask him.

Do you think he won’t tell us the truth or do you think he will be wrong?

 

[openmind77]

You would accept it based on…what?
And reject it based on…what?

On the basis of his words of course. If anythings departs even slightly from what Jesus said and away from his nature of forgiveness and love, it is obviously untrue.

The belief in eternal hell for any sinner after his death without another chance, definitely goes against Jesus’s nature of forgiveness and compassion.

 

[PRmerger]

The signs of his Return are all there - millions of people are expecting it to happen.

Even as we discuss this here, people are being divided into goats and sheep (per Matthew 25 31-46).

Amen!

And you know this because you are submitting to the authority of the CC, which told you that we are being divided into goats and sheep (Matthew 25).

Do you think he won’t tell us the truth or do you think he will be wrong?

Of course He cannot be wrong, for He is God.

And I know this the same way you do: because I have implicit trust in the authority of the CC.

That’s all I’m saying, openmind.

When you say that you don’t submit to the authority of the CC, while also stating that “Jesus said this!” and “Jesus will do that!”, you are actually asserting your tacit submission to the authority of the CC.

 

[PRmerger]

On the basis of his words of course. If anythings departs even slightly from what Jesus said and away from his nature of forgiveness and love, it is obviously untrue.

So what the Catholic Church has said is what you use as the blueprint, or the master list, to which you compare all other doctrines?

 

[GEddie]

So the position you have taken seems the reasonable one to take. What fool having seen the Face of God would choose to turn his back on that Face?

But then … there is Judas!

I’m not sure that we can compare seeing our LORD in His standard-issue human soma, is comparable to seeing HIM fully.

After all, tens of thousands saw Him bodily during His human life and had no inkling that they were beholding divinity.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[openmind77]

Amen!

And you know this because you are submitting to the authority of the CC, which told you that we are being divided into goats and sheep (Matthew 25).

Of course He cannot be wrong, for He is God.

And I know this the same way you do: because I have implicit trust in the authority of the CC.

That’s all I’m saying, openmind.

When you say that you don’t submit to the authority of the CC, while also stating that “Jesus said this!” and “Jesus will do that!”, you are actually asserting your tacit submission to the authority of the CC.

I would say the words of Jesus (in Matthew 25 31-46) come from the authority of God. No church can supercede the authority of God.Those words would live even if the church no longer existed.

 

[openmind77]

So what the Catholic Church has said is what you use as the blueprint, or the master list, to which you compare all other doctrines?

Not at all. I only take the words of Jesus alone as the truth. I don’t see any contradiction between Jesus’s teachings and other doctrines I know.

However, I see plenty of differences between what the Church adds on top of what Jesus said and other doctrines I folllow - this belief in sinners being sent to hell for eternity being just one of them.

 

[PRmerger]

I would say the words of Jesus (in Matthew 25 31-46) come from the authority of God. No church can supercede the authority of God.Those words would live even if the church no longer existed.

The above is very Catholic.

It still, however, doesn’t address the fact that** each and every time **you say “Jesus said…” or “Jesus wouldn’t…” you are declaring that you submit to the authority of the CC…which discerned, preserved, recorded and proclaimed that these are the words of Jesus.

Each and every time, openmind.

 

[PRmerger]

Not at all. I only take the words of Jesus alone as the truth.

Fair enough.

But you submit to the authority of the CC when you “take the words of Jesus”.

I don’t see any contradiction between Jesus’s teachings and other doctrines I know.

This, too, is very Catholic.

However, I see plenty of differences between what the Church adds on top of what Jesus said and other doctrines I folllow - this belief in sinners being sent to hell for eternity being just one of them.

How do you know the Church got it wrong with these additions if she got it right with Jesus’ Words?

And if you don’t think she got it right with Jesus’ Words then you ought to stop saying, “Jesus said…”, no?

 

[openmind77]

Fair enough.

But you submit to the authority of the CC when you “take the words of Jesus”.

This, too, is very Catholic.

How do you know the Church got it wrong with these additions if she got it right with Jesus’ Words?

And if you don’t think she got it right with Jesus’ Words then you ought to stop saying, “Jesus said…”, no?

I don’t understand this stuff about submitting to the authority of the Church if I believe in some quotes in the Bible. Thats like saying if I believe in some book, I am submitting to the authority of the publisher! There are lots of books I have faith in, I don’t even know who the publisher is - in many cases I may disagree with the publisher totally. If you are suggesting that the words of Jesus in the Bible are not his own, but have been dictated by the Church, you know more than I do.

I already explained to you the basis of why I think the Church has many things wrong. I don’t think there is any point in arguing about something that you want to believe without questioning or using your own judgment.

Hopefully when the Christ returns, you will make the right choice of whom to believe, when there are differences in teachings. Actually, at that time, many will stick with their current dogma and refuse to accept the Christ - but that is their choice.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand this stuff about submitting to the authority of the Church if I believe in some quotes in the Bible. Thats like saying if I believe in some book, I am submitting to the authority of the publisher!

Not the publisher, openmind, but the author. You do submit to the authority of the author when you profess that what the author said is true.

So let’s say someone named Jasmine Aluwe writes a book that states, “In Lagos there are 2,000 different Christian churches”.

When you come here on the CAFs and state, “Lagos has 2000 different Christian churches” we can be assured that you trust in the authority of the author of that statement.

And the author of the Bible is…the Catholic Church.

(Of course, we understand God to be the primary author, but God used the Catholic

Church to write the Bible. The Bible is a Catholic book written by Catholics for Catholics.)

So the logical conclusion is that you submit to the authority of the CC each and every time you quote from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc etc etc.

 

[openmind77]

Not the publisher, openmind, but the author. You do submit to the authority of the author when you profess that what the author said is true.

So let’s say someone named Jasmine Aluwe writes a book that states, “In Lagos there are 2,000 different Christian churches”.

When you come here on the CAFs and state, “Lagos has 2000 different Christian churches” we can be assured that you trust in the authority of the author of that statement.

And the author of the Bible is…the Catholic Church.

(Of course, we understand God to be the primary author, but God used the Catholic

Church to write the Bible. The Bible is a Catholic book written by Catholics for Catholics.)

So the logical conclusion is that you submit to the authority of the CC each and every time you quote from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc etc etc.

OK, when an article or a book quotes some person, they are not the author of the quoted words.

Are you saying that if I believe some journalist when he quotes Obama, that I am submitting to the journalist’s authority? (what a weird idea!)

It is the direct words of Jesus that I have faith in. Are you suggesting that the Church is the author of Jesus’s words?

I don’t think the Church would dare change the actual words that Jesus himself spoke, which is why I have faith that the words are His (not the Church’s).

However, I do suspect that the Church may have left out some words of Jesus which they had strong objections to, but there is no way to verify that.

So the point is - I don’t think the direct words of Jesus in the Bible support the belief that sinners get sent to Hell for eternity - that is just something the Church added on.

 

[PRmerger]

It is the direct words of Jesus that I have faith in.

Ok.

Let’s take it back a step.

Where do you think these words of Jesus came from?

Did they float down from the sky from the Hand of God?

Let’s examine what your beliefs are regarding this, for I’m pretty sure you haven’t really through this out. You’ve simply read the Bible (and good for you!) and decided that you like this Jesus and have taken His Words to heart (and, again, good for you!).

But let’s scrutinize something you haven’t ever thought of…

How did these words of Jesus come to you and me?

 

[openmind77]

Ok.

Let’s take it back a step.

Where do you think these words of Jesus came from?

Did they float down from the sky from the Hand of God?

Let’s examine what your beliefs are regarding this, for I’m pretty sure you haven’t really through this out. You’ve simply read the Bible (and good for you!) and decided that you like this Jesus and have taken His Words to heart (and, again, good for you!).

But let’s scrutinize something you haven’t ever thought of…

How did these words of Jesus come to you and me?

The words of Jesus quoted in Bible were passed down by people verbally and maybe sometimes in writing, but originally from those who actually heard him say them. Someone called Matthew wrote them down. The only thing church did was allow them to remain in the official version of the Bible. Changing the words themselves would have been too egregious a thing to do for anyone, including the church. But like I said, I suspect that the church exercised its editorial prerogative to leave out somethings.

So taking the analogy of a book or article - Matthew was the author, the Church was editor/publisher and Jesus the one who uttered the quoted words.

So any additions that the church makes to Jesus’s words - like saying that sinners go to the hell for eternity should be examined and judged just like we judge the analysis and commentary of a journalist who adds it after quoting someone.

 

[PRmerger]

The words of Jesus quoted in Bible were passed down by people verbally and maybe sometimes in writing, but originally from those who actually heard him say them. Someone called Matthew wrote them down.

Ok. Let’s stop right here.

How do you know that Matthew’s written account is correct, but that the Gospel of “The Sophia of Jesus Christ” is not?

earlychristianwritings.com/text/sophia.html

The only thing church did was allow them to remain in the official version of the Bible.

Well, the Church decided which books belong in the NT and which don’t.

So the fact that you believe that Matthew wrote the words of Christ means that you believe that the Church correctly discerned that Matthew’s words were correct.

o taking the analogy of a book or article - Matthew was the author, the Church was editor/publisher and Jesus the one who uttered the quoted words.

But you only know this because you trust that the CC got it right.

Let’s say that there were some other early Christian texts that say Christ talked about souls going to hell eternally, but these are not included in the Bible…what would you say to that?

 

[tonyrey]

You really are out of line here!

I did not judge Judas, even if I would not want to be in his shoes right now.

He saw the face of God in Jesus and turned his back on that Face when he sold it for 30 pieces of silver.

Try not to put uncharitable words in my mouth … PLEASE!!!

I wasn’t even thinking of you, Charlie! There are others on this forum who have stated that Judas is definitely in hell for having betrayed his Master. They are in the wrong to refuse to admit they may be wrong.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Can you cite official Church teaching that states this?
This states that those in hell are in a state of eternal separation from God.

This being, "Originally Posted by CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire.“617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”

Jesus said something to the effect that ALL sins will be forgiven except “blasphemy of the Spirit”, would you consider “all mortal sins” to be “blasphemy of the Spirit”?

As far as I know, no one has ever figured out what “blasphemy of the Spirit” is, do you know just what it is?

It is one of my most fervent prayers that somehow God would keep ALL from that sin.

Seems as if what Jesus supposedly said and what the catechism says is at odds.

I believe that Jesus trumps the catechism.

Any thoughts from you or anyone else concerning what Jesus said concerning forgiveness?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It is one of my most fervent prayers that somehow God would keep ALL from that sin. . .

Really? I find it hard to reconcile with you view that God will ultimately force everyone to love Him and one another.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t understand this stuff about submitting to the authority of the Church if I believe in some quotes in the Bible. Thats like saying if I believe in some book, I am submitting to the authority of the publisher! There are lots of books I have faith in, I don’t even know who the publisher is - in many cases I may disagree with the publisher totally. If you are suggesting that the words of Jesus in the Bible are not his own, but have been dictated by the Church, you know more than I do.

I already explained to you the basis of why I think the Church has many things wrong. I don’t think there is any point in arguing about something that you want to believe without questioning or using your own judgment.

Hopefully when the Christ returns, you will make the right choice of whom to believe, when there are differences in teachings. Actually, at that time, many will stick with their current dogma and refuse to accept the Christ - but that is their choice.

It sounds to me that you take on board and agree with the teachings of Christ. You haven’t submitted to the CC, one would have to be initiated into the church and practise the faith to be able to submit. Just my opinion