The "Fruit of the Vine" versus wine.

[Sam_777]

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, I have researched that on the Internet and I have found that “fruit of the vine” does not necessary mean “wine”, it could also mean “grape juice”.

However, the word “wine” was used in “Genesis 49:11”, so why it hasn’t been used in the last supper statements if it was really a wine!

I’m sceptical about wine and how it leads to drunkenness and sins, even in some recent medical studies (1) (2) (3) it showed the damage the wine can cause on health.

I know that drinking wine in moderation will not lead to drunkenness, but isn’t it better to be safe than sorry, isn’t it better to substitute wine with grape juice to be in the safe side and prevent any misuse, let us remember 1 Corinthians 6:12:
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything."

I know that alcohol was used in the past to preserve the grape juice, but nowadays we have many ways to preserve the juice without the need for alcohol…

My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

 

[po18guy]

It traces back to Melchizedek, Father Abraham’s King, who was the first King of Salem (later Jerusalem), in Genesis 14. He was also the first Priest to be a King, foreshadowing Jesus. Melchizedek used bread and wine as his sacrifice, which prefigured the bread and wine sacrifice that Jesus made. King David prophesied about the Messiah in Psalm 110, stating that He would be a priest on the “in the order of Melchizedek”. See also Hebrews 7, which speaks much about Melchizedek. As to wine specifically, Luke 7 records Jesus speaking about his drinking of wine: Luke 7:33-34 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

Following this, the drink at the Last supper was clearly wine which was consecrated by Jesus into His Blood. It had to be is He was a Priest forever in the line of Melchizedek. The catechism, in sections 1333 and 1334 speaks of the constitution of the sacrifice. For other uses,“fruit of the vine” might very well have meant grape juice, but with no refrigeration back then, fermentation was the way that grape juice was kept.

 

[MSSheBear]

Sorry about not being very profound, but I want to add my experience: First, I don’t react to wine very well and only rarely drink. I end up taking a nap two hours later regardless of the time! But I drink wine at communion at my church and it doesn’t bother me because it is a very small amount. Second, most Protestant churches offer grape juice and most Baptist like ones offer only grape juice.

I am also under the impression that a few Catholics avoided the Blood (?) of Christ which as the appearance of wine (forgive me if I have this messed up) because of health reasons.

Also, I agree grape juice has a short life as just juice without refrigeration. We are very lucky that we have refrigeration and canned foods these days.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus drank wine.

We at communion time just take a very small sip…could equal 1/4 teaspoon – at the most.

If one receives just the Eucharistic Bread, one is still receiving the Blood of Christ.

Sam_777, have you heard of the Miracle of Lepanto?

Also, I am just recalling a video I saw on You Tube last year…a documentary of a Eucharistic host, if I recall correctly, fell on the floor. It was retrieved and placed in a proper place.

When the host was observed afterwards, it appeared as human flesh. It was brought to a medical people who affirmed it was human flesh…and blood. The flesh came from a human’s heart. The blood was a rare AB form. This is the same result of the host of Lepanto.

Later the host was sent to New York, and when it was observed in more minute detail…not only was it from human heart…but that the flesh was beating…

The heart is the sign of love. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the very heart of love of Christ and His life giving blood.

 

[svid]

Isn’t it true that Catholics do not have to sip from the chalice if they don’t want to? If I’m getting a cold, I definitely pass it up. What if someone is allergic to wine/grape juice, or cannot handle the chalice without risk of spilling?

 

[KathleenGee]

You do not have to take the cup if you do not want to. The Cup was withheld during our flu season last year in my diocese. Each diocese decides for its own what it should do during epidemics as conditions vary in different geographical locations.

The Eucharist is in itself the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. There has been in recent times the Cup offered only on special occasions or a Mass for people becoming consecrated to God by joining an eccelesial community.

Both Eucharist and Cup are practiced here in USA 7 days a week.

Regarding a potential minister being inclined to spill the Cup, the person who is considering becoming a Eucharistic Minister must ask one’s self if they have impediments where they could be inclined to inadvertently drop the Cup when serving – if it is the right ministry for them…

If there is a spill, a purificator is used to remove the spill and the contents properly disposed of through norms of the Church, because the spill does have the Blood of Christ Himself.

Never does the Eucharist ever be tossed into the garbage or down the sink…because we believe in the Eucharist as God’s physical presence among us. So the Church has norms or rules to protect the proper dignity and treatment of God in the Eucharist and Blood.

 

[po18guy]

it could also mean “grape juice” My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

As (name removed by moderator) noted, recent faulty interpretation of scripture and language has corrupted Jesus’ very words and actions. This must be carefully avoided in a search for the truth.

As to Jesus drinking wine, He Himself said so, and His first public miracle was to change water into wine (John 2:1-11). And, this occurred at the request of the Blessed Virgin Mary. But, the Catholic Church does not rely solely on scripture. It is the Sacred Tradition, passed on by the Apostles, that wine was used for communion. Some non-Catholic Churches are trying to reinvent the faith by reverse-engineering it using the bible alone - the same bible which tells you it is incomplete. And, they do not even use a complete bible, having removed 7 books of scripture from it. So, they are easily mislead in their “research”

From 2 Maccabees 15:39 “Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work.”

The wine at communion is mixed with holy water, so you do not drink pure wine. Is it a sin to drink the communion wine, simply because it is wine? No! Communion cleanses you of venial sin. It would be the sin of idolatry to drink juice while believing that it was the Blood of Christ, as juice is not proper matter for consecration to the Lord.

Not once does Jesus ever mention grape juice, nor is it mentioned in the New Testament at all. During communion, you take a sip - even the slightest touch of the Blood of Christ to your lips achieves its full purpose.

 

[Sufjon]

I If I’m getting a cold, I definitely pass it up.

I went to a Lutheran service last week, and they had a very ingenious solution to this problem. At this parish, they give you the bread, and then they let you dip it in a chalice of wine or a chalice of grape juice. This way, no one is passing along germs. Then, as I was commenting on what a great idea that was, my friend (who is a member of that parish) pointed out someone who was double-dipping. She dipped it in the wine, took a bite and dipped it again. I still think it was a rather brilliant solution. Everyone just has to follow the process properly.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[rev_kevin]

I went to a Lutheran service last week, and they had a very ingenious solution to this problem. At this parish, they give you the bread, and then they let you dip it in a chalice of wine or a chalice of grape juice. This way, no one is passing along germs. Then, as I was commenting on what a great idea that was, my friend (who is a member of that parish) pointed out someone who was double-dipping. She dipped it in the wine, took a bite and dipped it again. I still think it was a rather brilliant solution. Everyone just has to follow the process properly.

Your friend
Sufjon

A Methodist minister I know does the same thing.

 

[rev_kevin]

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, I have researched that on the Internet and I have found that “fruit of the vine” does not necessary mean “wine”, it could also mean “grape juice”.

However, the word “wine” was used in “Genesis 49:11”, so why it hasn’t been used in the last supper statements if it was really a wine!

I’m sceptical about wine and how it leads to drunkenness and sins, even in some recent medical studies (1) (2) (3) it showed the damage the wine can cause on health.

I know that drinking wine in moderation will not lead to drunkenness, but isn’t it better to be safe than sorry, isn’t it better to substitute wine with grape juice to be in the safe side and prevent any misuse, let us remember 1 Corinthians 6:12:
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything."

I know that alcohol was used in the past to preserve the grape juice, but nowadays we have many ways to preserve the juice without the need for alcohol…

My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

Both wine and grape juice are made of the same thing, make from the same thing, fruit of the vine. If one wants to have alcohol ie, wine thats fine. If one prefers no alcohol ie. grape juice. thats fine. They are both from the same plant.

 

[Sam_777]

Sam_777, have you heard of the Miracle of Lepanto?

You mean the battle of Lepanto?

If one wants to have alcohol ie, wine thats fine. If one prefers no alcohol ie. grape juice. thats fine.

I would love that but do Catholics agree on that concept?

 

[Esdra]

I know that alcohol was used in the past to preserve the grape juice, but nowadays we have many ways to preserve the juice without the need for alcohol…

My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

Actually, unless you are not orthodox you’ll never get wine at the Eucharist (exception in Catholicism: some very high feasts, but as a Catholic you are not obliged to drink from the cup).

But principally, I go with you, being a Baptist.
Baptists and Pentecostals and most other Evangelicals use grape juice insted of wine at the Last Supper. (Although I don’t know if they explain that with fruit of the vine. But I know that they say that they do so that everyone can partake at the Lord’s Supper. - Also, i.e. former alcoholics, as you are not allowed to drink alcohol being a former alcoholic unless you don’t want to become an alcoholic again.

 

[MartinJordan]

Doesn’t flesh in general always have the element of blood? Atleast that what I had been taught, being born and Baptised Catholic.

Having the Body of Christ I believe already covers both Body and Blood. One does not have to take the wine if they feel they might get drunk or what not;ergo the Body of Christ already has it. Everything else is just excuses, IMHO.

MJ

 

[gentle_atheist]

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, I have researched that on the Internet and I have found that “fruit of the vine” does not necessary mean “wine”, it could also mean “grape juice”.

I believe that the only time the expression “fruit of the vine” appears in the Bible is at the Last Supper. And it was on the night of the Last Supper that Jesus refers to Himself as a vine: “I am the vine. You are the branches.”

So if Jesus is the vine then the fruit of the vine is the blood of Jesus and the salvation wrought by His blood.

Therefore, I don’t think that the expression “fruit of the vine” refers to either wine or grape juice. I think that it refers to the blood of Jesus.

In other words, Protestants have it backwards when they claim that Jesus was speaking figuratively when He said “this is my blood” and literally when He said “fruit of the vine.”

(Just a point I used to make from my cradle Catholic days.)

 

[ignatius777]

I believe that the only time the expression “fruit of the vine” appears in the Bible is at the Last Supper. And it was on the night of the Last Supper that Jesus refers to Himself as a vine: “I am the vine. You are the branches.”

So if Jesus is the vine then the fruit of the vine is the blood of Jesus and the salvation wrought by His blood.

Therefore, I don’t think that the expression “fruit of the vine” refers to either wine or grape juice. I think that it refers to the blood of Jesus.

In other words, Protestants have it backwards when they claim that Jesus was speaking figuratively when He said “this is my blood” and literally when He said “fruit of the vine.”

(Just a point I used to make from my cradle Catholic days.)

You make the point as well as any catholic apologist I have ever heard. I’ll be praying that you return home some day. Amen

 

[KathleenGee]

Sam_

Sorry…Miracle of Lanciano.

And yes, forgot, water is added to the blood…representing baptism and washing away of our sins through the shedding of Blood.

 

[MartinJordan]

Good point!

MJ

 

[ConstantineTG]

I went to a Lutheran service last week, and they had a very ingenious solution to this problem. At this parish, they give you the bread, and then they let you dip it in a chalice of wine or a chalice of grape juice. This way, no one is passing along germs. Then, as I was commenting on what a great idea that was, my friend (who is a member of that parish) pointed out someone who was double-dipping. She dipped it in the wine, took a bite and dipped it again. I still think it was a rather brilliant solution. Everyone just has to follow the process properly.

Your friend
Sufjon

It is called intinction. Its expressedly forbidden for a lay person to intinct the Communion Host in the Precious Blood of Christ. Only a priest or bishop may intinct the Host and give it to a communicant. Some priests will give Communion via intinction. In the Byzantine Rite both Catholic and Orthodox, it is the norm.

Actually, unless you are not orthodox you’ll never get wine at the Eucharist (exception in Catholicism: some very high feasts, but as a Catholic you are not obliged to drink from the cup).

The Eastern traditions are not to the Orthodox alone. There are Catholics among the Eastern Christians who carry the same tradition. Its not about mandatory reception of the Precious Blood, but it is how the tradition in the ritual Church is.

 

[Bluegoat]

I went to a Lutheran service last week, and they had a very ingenious solution to this problem. At this parish, they give you the bread, and then they let you dip it in a chalice of wine or a chalice of grape juice. This way, no one is passing along germs. Then, as I was commenting on what a great idea that was, my friend (who is a member of that parish) pointed out someone who was double-dipping. She dipped it in the wine, took a bite and dipped it again. I still think it was a rather brilliant solution. Everyone just has to follow the process properly.

Your friend
Sufjon

Actually this is much more unsanitary. People have their fingers on the hosts and then dip them in the wine. Our fingers are usually the dirtiest part of our bodies.

 

[Esdra]

The Eastern traditions are not to the Orthodox alone. There are Catholics among the Eastern Christians who carry the same tradition. Its not about mandatory reception of the Precious Blood, but it is how the tradition in the ritual Church is.

I know, sorry. Realized too late that the Eastern Catholics also serve the chalice with Jesus Blood at the Eucharist.
I am not really used to include the Eastern Catholic Churches in my thinking. You see, I am living in a Roman Catholic dominated country and actually only have been dealing with Eastern Catholcism here in CAF. Before I even didn’t know that something like that exists.