The "Fruit of the Vine" versus wine.

[Esdra]

Actually this is much more unsanitary. People have their fingers on the hosts and then dip them in the wine. Our fingers are usually the dirtiest part of our bodies.

But actually, when Blood and Body was given in the Eucharist we simply did that: Recieved the Host by our hands and dipped it into the wine. Although this is really very seldom in our parish. (- The offering of the Blood of Jesus in the form of wine)
I actually don’t know how it would work, if someone would recieve the host (as it actually should be) by mouth given by the priest. He maybe dip the Host into the wine?

Btw., except in the Serbian Orthodox mass I’ve once been, I’ve never seen actually someone drinking from the Chalice (except priests, decons and special ministers [which are quite few in the meantime here in Austria due to a sever lack of priests. - Sometimes even our femal special minister {who of course studied theology and is a R.I. teacher1} holds services if neither our priest nor the decon is here!]). In the Serbian Orthodox Church I’ve been attending they used a long spoon btw to give the Blood/wine to the people recieving Communion.

In the Lutheran Church I’ve attended once they btw. also use hosts just like the CC and people drink from the Chalice when they celebrate the Lord’s Supper.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know, sorry. Realized too late that the Eastern Catholics also serve the chalice with Jesus Blood at the Eucharist.
I am not really used to include the Eastern Catholic Churches in my thinking. You see, I am living in a Roman Catholic dominated country and actually only have been dealing with Eastern Catholcism here in CAF. Before I even didn’t know that something like that exists.

I know where you are coming from. I grew up in a mostly Roman Catholic country as well. When my mom heard I was going to “Greek Catholic” church, she thought I was becoming Protestant We never really knew about any other Catholic than Roman Catholic.

But its interesting to at least learn about the Eastern traditions. Its one of Pope John Paul II’s legacy in his Apostolic Letter, Orientale Lumen. He asks all Roman Catholics to familiarize themselves with the Eastern traditions. Although some of us decided not only to visit, but to stay and be Eastern.

 

[Esdra]

I know where you are coming from. I grew up in a mostly Roman Catholic country as well. When my mom heard I was going to “Greek Catholic” church, she thought I was becoming Protestant We never really knew about any other Catholic than Roman Catholic.

But its interesting to at least learn about the Eastern traditions. Its one of Pope John Paul II’s legacy in his Apostolic Letter, Orientale Lumen. He asks all Roman Catholics to familiarize themselves with the Eastern traditions. Although some of us decided not only to visit, but to stay and be Eastern.

I mean, I did somehow know from my dad that there are Orthodox Churches in communion with Rome. (He was educated when studying theology by a Byzantine/Greek Catholic priest). - But actually, I didn’t know what exactely that is. - And, frankly, at that time I also was not interested. I was far more into studying (myself) reformed theology.
But in the meantime, also because of CAF, I am interested.

I also didn’t know that there are far more Churches in communion in Rome - also Oriental Orthodox i.e…

 

[po18guy]

Both wine and grape juice are made of the same thing, make from the same thing, fruit of the vine. If one wants to have alcohol ie, wine thats fine. If one prefers no alcohol ie. grape juice. thats fine. They are both from the same plant.

For non-Catholics and non-Orthodox, it is a matter of discipline. However the Catholic and Orthodox have the unchangeable teaching and practice of using wine. It is not for the sake of wanting wine, it is according to the command and practice of our Lord.

 

[Cristiano]

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, I have researched that on the Internet and I have found that “fruit of the vine” does not necessary mean “wine”, it could also mean “grape juice”.

However, the word “wine” was used in “Genesis 49:11”, so why it hasn’t been used in the last supper statements if it was really a wine!

I’m sceptical about wine and how it leads to drunkenness and sins, even in some recent medical studies (1) (2) (3) it showed the damage the wine can cause on health.

I know that drinking wine in moderation will not lead to drunkenness, but isn’t it better to be safe than sorry, isn’t it better to substitute wine with grape juice to be in the safe side and prevent any misuse, let us remember 1 Corinthians 6:12:
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything."

I know that alcohol was used in the past to preserve the grape juice, but nowadays we have many ways to preserve the juice without the need for alcohol…

My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

It was wine not grape juice. First you could not preserve grape juice, it would naturally start fermenting into wine very fast. Second wine was used as a method to “purify” the water that at the time was quite unsafe to drink in its “unadulterated” form.

 

[kmuestwin]

Since grape juice was invented in 1869 wouldn’t it be anachronous to use it instead of wine to recreate the last supper?

 

[po18guy]

Actually, unless you are not orthodox you’ll never get wine at the Eucharist (exception in Catholicism: some very high feasts, but as a Catholic you are not obliged to drink from the cup).

In the Latin Rite, it is common practice to offer the Holy Eucharist in both species. For those with celiac disease, who may not partake of the Body, Christ’s Blood is offered.

But principally, I go with you, being a Baptist.
Baptists and Pentecostals and most other Evangelicals use grape juice insted of wine at the Last Supper. (Although I don’t know if they explain that with fruit of the vine. But I know that they say that they do so that everyone can partake at the Lord’s Supper. - Also, i.e. former alcoholics, as you are not allowed to drink alcohol being a former alcoholic unless you don’t want to become an alcoholic again.

I am unaware of anyone who has ever reverted to alcoholism based on consumption of Christ’s Blood. Quite the reverse, actually. Since it is not a symbol, those who partake are strengthened against sin.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

The term “fruit of the vine” was used in a prayer at Passover. “Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, king of the universe, creator of the fruit of the vine.” It does not prescribe grape juice, but instead is a blessing of God for His bountiful gifts, exemplified by His creation of nourishment. Matthew is the most Jewish of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), and is rich with Jewish references.

Lutheran tradition is in keeping with Catholic teaching on receiving the Eucharist: if one receives either element one has communed completely, since Jesus if wholly present in the elements.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The Last Supper is the fulfillment of the passover which included 4 cups of wine, unleavened bread and consuming a sacrificed lamb unto God. So when Jesus institutes his Eucharist in the new and everlasting covenant in his blood, Jesus took the third cup of wine during the passover at the Last supper (which included the eating of the lamb), which is called the “cup of blessing” which is always filled with wine, never grape juice, when Jesus by His Word calls the cup of blessing filled with wine His blood and the unleavened bread His body.

A valid Eucharist can only be consecrated using wine = fruit of the vine, and unleavened bread by a valid consecrated (ordained) priest. In the Western rite one can take both species or one or the other. It is not a sin to only consume one species of the Eucharist because both contain the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. But a Catholic would never substitute grape juice for the Eucharist.

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, I have researched that on the Internet and I have found that “fruit of the vine” does not necessary mean “wine”, it could also mean “grape juice”.

However, the word “wine” was used in “Genesis 49:11”, so why it hasn’t been used in the last supper statements if it was really a wine!

I’m sceptical about wine and how it leads to drunkenness and sins, even in some recent medical studies (1) (2) (3) it showed the damage the wine can cause on health.

I know that drinking wine in moderation will not lead to drunkenness, but isn’t it better to be safe than sorry, isn’t it better to substitute wine with grape juice to be in the safe side and prevent any misuse, let us remember 1 Corinthians 6:12:
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything."

I know that alcohol was used in the past to preserve the grape juice, but nowadays we have many ways to preserve the juice without the need for alcohol…

My main question, is it a sin for someone refusing to have wine/alcohol at each Sunday’s Eucharist or if he/she asks that to be substituted by a grape juice?

 

[Sam_777]

Therefore, I don’t think that the expression “fruit of the vine” refers to either wine or grape juice. I think that it refers to the blood of Jesus.

Interesting theory…

It is not a sin to only consume one species of the Eucharist because both contain the body,

So If I never touch wine (even a sip) I can be 100% Catholic without committing sin.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sam…there are people in my country who have celiac disease…they can’t consume wheat and become very sick. So the priests provide them the Sacred Species (Eucharist and Cup) through the Cup.

Yes, the wine is mixed with water signifying the purifying water of Baptism in the Lord.

When we have had long communion lines, and the Cup is getting low, many of us take the absolute minimum…just a taste on the tongue.

And yes, you talk to any priest or Catholic and they will tell you to follow your conscience and if you just don’t want to receive the Lord through the Cup, you have no pressure. We have two lines at Mass. There are many I see who pass the Cup and go back to their pew for various reasons. Their reasons are none of my business.

So if you come into Christ’s Church, we welcome you!, how you receive…as long as you can say Amen to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ that you believe you are truly receiving the Manna from Heaven…it is your business the form of Species you prefer and nobody else’s.

You are free.

 

[Esdra]

In the Latin Rite, it is common practice to offer the Holy Eucharist in both species. For those with celiac disease, who may not partake of the Body, Christ’s Blood is offered.

Are you sure that this is the case with the Latin Rite and not rather with the Eastern Catholics?
When I was a devout Catholic (Latin Rite), seldom the chalice with Jesus Blood was served at the Eucharist!

I am unaware of anyone who has ever reverted to alcoholism based on consumption of Christ’s Blood. Quite the reverse, actually. Since it is not a symbol, those who partake are strengthened against sin.

Nono, that’s not the point. But, actually, this is a scientific fact: if you were an ancoholic and EVER drink alcohol again, even it is only a small sip, you’ll be addicted at once!
I know that form an acquaintance from me… Very sad story. - He was clean but then his collegues urged him to drink and know he is an alcoholic again.

 

[Esdra]

Sam…there are people in my country who have celiac disease…they can’t consume wheat and become very sick. So the priests provide them the Sacred Species (Eucharist and Cup) through the Cup.

Yes, the wine is mixed with water signifying the purifying water of Baptism in the Lord.

When we have had long communion lines, and the Cup is getting low, many of us take the absolute minimum…just a taste on the tongue.

And yes, you talk to any priest or Catholic and they will tell you to follow your conscience and if you just don’t want to receive the Lord through the Cup, you have no pressure. We have two lines at Mass. There are many I see who pass the Cup and go back to their pew for various reasons. Their reasons are none of my business.

So if you come into Christ’s Church, we welcome you!, how you receive…as long as you can say Amen to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ that you believe you are truly receiving the Manna from Heaven…it is your business the form of Species you prefer and nobody else’s.

You are free.

Strange, you are also talking about that in the Eucharist both species are offered in your parish…
I’ve always thought that’s more an Eastern Orthodox/Catholic tradition?!
At least in my former parish here in Austria, hardly ever the chalice with Jesus’ Blood was offered…

 

[po18guy]

Interesting theory…

It makes much sense, given that Jesus had just spoken of Himself being the vine, and us the branches.

So If I never touch wine (even a sip) I can be 100% Catholic without committing sin.

Yes. Our Lord is fully present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divininty in either His Body (formerly bread), or in His Blood (formerly wine). Remember that it is not a sin to drink alcohol in Catholic, Orthodox and several other forms of Christianity, since Jesus and the Apostles also drank wine. Many newer forms of Christianity have, for some reason, banned alcohol, which (along with other reasons) eliminates their potential for any true celebration of communion.

It is a sin, however, to intentionally become intoxicated, as this is abuse of the alcohol as well as of your body, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Probably like you, I do not drink alcohol, but I savor the Blood of Christ. It intoxicates the spirit, rather than the body. For me, this requires only the tiniest of sips.

 

[po18guy]

Are you sure that this is the case with the Latin Rite and not rather with the Eastern Catholics? When I was a devout Catholic (Latin Rite), seldom the chalice with Jesus Blood was served at the Eucharist!

It may differ slightly from parish to parish, but in Washington State, the Seattle Archdiocese, every parish I have visited has offered both species. How long ago were you a practicing Catholic?

Nono, that’s not the point. But, actually, this is a scientific fact: if you were an ancoholic and EVER drink alcohol again, even it is only a small sip, you’ll be addicted at once! I know that form an acquaintance from me… Very sad story. - He was clean but then his collegues urged him to drink and know he is an alcoholic again.

Your friend is a tragic anecdote, but remains a single story, correct? As well, he was drinking alcohol for its own sake, and was not receiving the Blood of Christ. His decision to relapse into alcoholism was made in his heart before the drink ever touched his lips.

Christ’s Blood delivers from sin (CCC 1393-94). It preserves from future mortal sin (CCC 1395), increases union with Christ, which makes it less likely that we will sin, and more difficult to commit to sin (CCC 1391, 1416). It increases the Grace of Baptism (CCC1392)… Example: One friend in particular was alcoholic/crack cocaine addict for years and has no such problem in receiving Christ’s Blood. As an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, he even consumes the remainder in the cup at the end of communion. It depends upon the faith and reverence with which you partake.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am a former member of the Archdiocese of Seattle.

I am in another diocese and we have the both Sacred Species at many daily Masses.

When I say it is nobody’s business if someone refuses the wine, I am inferring about the case with the alcoholic, we in America having just about every family afflicted with someone who has this addiction. Some people do not like just drinking from a public cup.

We are having more cases of celiac disease…people who cannot receive the Host. So they come up to the altar before the priests after everyone has received, to make it clear to people who are inclined to look too much at people during Mass instead of God…to let them know there is a solid reason why these people are receiving the Cup…a number of them children.

We are also having an epidemic of diabetes here as well.

My diocese banned Communion under both forms during the flu epidemic last year.

The Eucharist is, as others say, the entirety of Christ.

I read somewhere that Communion under both forms was for special occasions. So I don’t want to go further if this what we have here is touching on norms.

 

[SempirVeritas]

Okay, to be blunt,

ANY and all arguments against the use of alcohol are without cause or support in scripture, period. Any protestant would do well to cease with such misguided notions taught by albeit well intentioned, but misguided teachers.

There seems to be this idea that some protestants have in particular that "oh, we arent different enough by following scripture, so lets see how much more different we can be buy making up silly beliefs like “america is Babylon, movies are bad, ballroom dancing is from hell, drinking a shot of whiskey makes you satan incarnate”

reformedpresbytery.org/books/alcoholb/alcoholb.htm

should sufficiently answer and refute any and all anti alcohol arguments. Basically thats what scripture says, and its your problem if you dont agree with it…

 

[Sam_777]

And yes, you talk to any priest or Catholic and they will tell you to follow your conscience and if you just don’t want to receive the Lord through the Cup, you have no pressure.

Yes. Our Lord is fully present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divininty in either His Body (formerly bread), or in His Blood (formerly wine).

Thanks, that is encouraging…

 

[Esdra]

It may differ slightly from parish to parish, but in Washington State, the Seattle Archdiocese, every parish I have visited has offered both species. How long ago were you a practicing Catholic?

Well, I have never been really devout. But actually I haven’t formerly quit with the CC (in Austria and Germany you have to formerly resign at the government!) - Thus I am still occasionally visiting Catholic masses, as my whole family is Catholic. - Especially on High Feasts like Easter or Christmas. - Well, and as I said before, the chalice with Jesus’ Blood has been extremely seldom served in my parish.

Your friend is a tragic anecdote, but remains a single story, correct? As well, he was drinking alcohol for its own sake, and was not receiving the Blood of Christ. His decision to relapse into alcoholism was made in his heart before the drink ever touched his lips.

He is not my friend. But an acquaintance. Yes, it’s very tragic. But actually, I think the same could have happened if he would have taken a sip from the wine/Blood.
As far as I know this is historically proven that if you were an Alcoholic, you are not allowed to drink ever alcohol again after being clean…

Christ’s Blood delivers from sin (CCC 1393-94). It preserves from future mortal sin (CCC 1395), increases union with Christ, which makes it less likely that we will sin, and more difficult to commit to sin (CCC 1391, 1416). It increases the Grace of Baptism (CCC1392)… Example: One friend in particular was alcoholic/crack cocaine addict for years and has no such problem in receiving Christ’s Blood. As an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, he even consumes the remainder in the cup at the end of communion. It depends upon the faith and reverence with which you partake.

I am not sure if this is correct what you write here… I am gently disagreeing with you upon this point…

 

[Esdra]

We are having more cases of celiac disease…people who cannot receive the Host. So they come up to the altar before the priests after everyone has received, to make it clear to people who are inclined to look too much at people during Mass instead of God…to let them know there is a solid reason why these people are receiving the Cup…a number of them children.

What? Have I understood correctly CHILDREN are receiving the chalice with Jesus blood/wine?!