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Sam_777
Guest
In those times they did not have fridges, but now we have, so preserving the grape juice can be done without the need for alcohol.
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Sam_777
Guest
In those times they did not have fridges, but now we have, so preserving the grape juice can be done without the need for alcohol.
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Sam_777
Guest
I don’t think JESUS will be offended if someone had grape juice instead of wine…
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KathleenGee
Guest
Sam,
Christ drank wine. He changed water into wine for His first miracle at the Wedding of Cana. No drunkenness can enter into the kingdom of heaven. Such behavior always begins with the will.
There are norms which make a valid Eucharist. Leaven bread and grape juice do not comply and would invalidate the consecration.
Christ drank wine. He changed water into wine for His first miracle at the Wedding of Cana. No drunkenness can enter into the kingdom of heaven. Such behavior always begins with the will.
There are norms which make a valid Eucharist. Leaven bread and grape juice do not comply and would invalidate the consecration.
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Aramis
Guest
Wrong. Leavened bread does NOT invalidate the Eucharist. At least 14 of the 23 churches in union with rome use leavened bread for the eucharist, as do the Orthodox.
It is merely illicit to use leavened bread in the Roman Rite.
Lack of bread of wheat, or lack of wine will invalidate the consecration, but leaven doesn’t.
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Esdra
Guest
Oh man, I am so with you.
Have a look in a Protestant Church near you ('though I think that’s rather a hard issue in Saudi Arabia; Not only to find Protestant Churches, but also Orthodox or Catholic ones!).
They are usually very friendly and I am sure you’ll like it.
I AM NOT PROSYTELIZING HERE! Of course you are also free to have a look in a Catholic Church or an Orthodox one!!
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Esdra
Guest
You are right on this one. In the Serbian-Orthodox Church I’ve been once they also used leavened bread!
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Esdra
Guest
Did he ask over a valid Eucharist?
You see, I am neither Orthodox no Catholic, so for me personally the Lord’s Supper and what you Catholic and Orthodox call Eucharist are more or less the same.
Furthermore, I think it is important to have a look to various christian Churches. (Especially when you are exploring Christianity. - 'Though one has to be VERY cautious to not get caught by a cult or a sect! I know what I’m talking about… It nearly happened to me!)
I also did that and it didn’t harm myself but was overall an interesting experience.
You see, I am neither Orthodox no Catholic, so for me personally the Lord’s Supper and what you Catholic and Orthodox call Eucharist are more or less the same.
Furthermore, I think it is important to have a look to various christian Churches. (Especially when you are exploring Christianity. - 'Though one has to be VERY cautious to not get caught by a cult or a sect! I know what I’m talking about… It nearly happened to me!)
I also did that and it didn’t harm myself but was overall an interesting experience.
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Esdra
Guest
Yes, I am a baptised Catholic. But I have not been a (devout) Catholic anymore for 8 years now.
But I only want to advise him that he should have a look in more than one denomination. - And this also contains Protestant ones.
I didn’t say: “Go to a Protestant Church and forget Orthodoxy and Catholicism!”
I think he is old enough to decide himself where to go.
Maybe he never becomes a Christian but stays a Muslim?
IMO, it’s all his choice.
But I only want to advise him that he should have a look in more than one denomination. - And this also contains Protestant ones.
I didn’t say: “Go to a Protestant Church and forget Orthodoxy and Catholicism!”
I think he is old enough to decide himself where to go.
Maybe he never becomes a Christian but stays a Muslim?
IMO, it’s all his choice.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Sam_777,
Jesus Christ gave His apostles, and their successors authority over the Church. We were not intended to be a loose ended organization with everybody going every which way…when it comes to the Sacred and that which is Sacred…most particularly the Sacred Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Who promised us He would remain always with us.
Jesus said that whoever ate of His flesh and drank of His blood would have life eternal.
You do not mess around with the sacred. From the very beginning, only unleaven bread and wine are to be consecrated by the presbyter/priest. I was in a diocese where a priest used leaven bread and subsequently invalidated the consecration of the bread and wine.
You will never know the great and deep mystery of God until you have received the Eucharist in full faith. The Body and Blood is not to be arbitrated and done whatever.
Do you know that there are witches who want to get hold of a consecrated host…a Eucharistic host, to desecrate it? There are those who can come to a chalice of hosts or wine and know right away which is consecrated, Divine, and what is not.
To receive the Eucharist without faith is a sacrilege and the priests must follow all norms to make sure the Eucharist is treated only with the greatest respect and worship.
The world has lost sense of the sacred. We are not to receive the Lord Almighty uncommonly.
I read a passage from Fr. Jean Croiset’s, ‘True Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus’. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the same God Who delivered the Jews from slavery, led them out of Egypt as the Pillar of Fire, the same God Who separated the Red Sea, Who fed them Manna from Heaven, Who spoke to the Prophets of antiquity, Who performed miracles and did great feats…this is the same God Who resides in the Eucharist.
He will not harm you in a most minute sip of Consecrated Wine mixed with water.
Jesus Christ gave His apostles, and their successors authority over the Church. We were not intended to be a loose ended organization with everybody going every which way…when it comes to the Sacred and that which is Sacred…most particularly the Sacred Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Who promised us He would remain always with us.
Jesus said that whoever ate of His flesh and drank of His blood would have life eternal.
You do not mess around with the sacred. From the very beginning, only unleaven bread and wine are to be consecrated by the presbyter/priest. I was in a diocese where a priest used leaven bread and subsequently invalidated the consecration of the bread and wine.
Code:
When a priest speaks and works, he is not acting alone, but as a member of the entire Church. If he does any action contrary, he is doing illicit things.Do you know that there are witches who want to get hold of a consecrated host…a Eucharistic host, to desecrate it? There are those who can come to a chalice of hosts or wine and know right away which is consecrated, Divine, and what is not.
To receive the Eucharist without faith is a sacrilege and the priests must follow all norms to make sure the Eucharist is treated only with the greatest respect and worship.
The world has lost sense of the sacred. We are not to receive the Lord Almighty uncommonly.
I read a passage from Fr. Jean Croiset’s, ‘True Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus’. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the same God Who delivered the Jews from slavery, led them out of Egypt as the Pillar of Fire, the same God Who separated the Red Sea, Who fed them Manna from Heaven, Who spoke to the Prophets of antiquity, Who performed miracles and did great feats…this is the same God Who resides in the Eucharist.
He will not harm you in a most minute sip of Consecrated Wine mixed with water.
po18guy
Well-known member
Sam, my brother, I do not drink any alcohol. But, once I came to believe that the wine truly has become the Blood of Christ, I am ecstatic to taste it. Forget the alcohol, it’s His Blood now! I follow the advice of our Blessed Mother: “Do whatever He tells you” Amen!
po18guy
Well-known member
However, we are called, as baptized Christians and defenders of the faith, which is truth, to call all searching hearts to the fulness of truth. Sam has read more than enough scripture to realize that the true Church is recorded in the bible and that it is Apostolic in nature. He is learning why unleavened bread and wine are used for Holy Communion. Of that, I will not be ashamed to proclaim.
po18guy
Well-known member
But, grape juice is very clearly a recent man-made alteration of the very command of Jesus. It was introduced by men who misinterpreted scripture and/or did not trust themselves and thereby banned the same wine that Jesus used.Oh man, I am so with you.
Have a look in a Protestant Church near you ('though I think that’s rather a hard issue in Saudi Arabia; Not only to find Protestant Churches, but also Orthodox or Catholic ones!).
They are usually very friendly and I am sure you’ll like it.
Ask yourself if it is possible that the Holy Spirit lead Sam both to Christ and to the Catholic Church. If the answer is yes, then consider that you might just be working against the Holy Spirit.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Jharek for expanding on the use of leaven bread…I hear from an Orthodox, although we can receive, it is likely the Orthodox priest would not allow us to receive if there were no Latin church near by…
I think the bigger issue is this: that when we approach the Sacraments we are approaching a reality separate from us. We approach the presence of God Himself.
We can experience Christ in the community, in personal friendships; we can have very private experiences that we believe Christ came to us but nobody else believes.
But it is a different reality, a far greater reality to believe in Christ and share in the Holy Spirit and the Word of God around us…but when we approach the sacraments…
The sacraments are separate from us. They are outward signs containing the inner reality and very tangible to those spiritually akin to…the presence of God Himself…and it is quite sobering.
so many times we think we can create church…and really it is a matter of opinion or a certain slant of interpreting Scripture…but Church is actually believing in the presence of Christ outside of us in the Sacraments, given to us through the administrative Church, souls chosen and consecrated to God, separate from us, but there to serve both Christ and us.
I experience Christ in ecumenical fellowship…but the experience I have of Him before the Blessed Sacrament, in the Eucharist, in confession and the other sacraments is quite different, most sacred, holy ground.
I think the bigger issue is this: that when we approach the Sacraments we are approaching a reality separate from us. We approach the presence of God Himself.
We can experience Christ in the community, in personal friendships; we can have very private experiences that we believe Christ came to us but nobody else believes.
But it is a different reality, a far greater reality to believe in Christ and share in the Holy Spirit and the Word of God around us…but when we approach the sacraments…
The sacraments are separate from us. They are outward signs containing the inner reality and very tangible to those spiritually akin to…the presence of God Himself…and it is quite sobering.
so many times we think we can create church…and really it is a matter of opinion or a certain slant of interpreting Scripture…but Church is actually believing in the presence of Christ outside of us in the Sacraments, given to us through the administrative Church, souls chosen and consecrated to God, separate from us, but there to serve both Christ and us.
I experience Christ in ecumenical fellowship…but the experience I have of Him before the Blessed Sacrament, in the Eucharist, in confession and the other sacraments is quite different, most sacred, holy ground.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
My client’s deceased cousin was a Murranos…a Spanish Jew, who came from a family background that prayed the Rosary and went to Mass, but were Jewish and did not fully believe in Christ. They loved Spain and became outwardly Catholic to remain there, and survived the Inquisition.
But in her book, she said that when she received the Eucharist, she did experience God – without even trying. She experienced such goodness and well being, and it was an experience beyond her, and she has such fond memories of such. She died while I was caring for the cousin who was dealing with cancer. That person survived, and now has another book written by the Murranos…
On forgiveness that she learned while studying Christianity. I was not able to find time to read the rest of the book, but it was in the book of forgiveness and living a secular lifestyle, that she recollected her times going to Mass and receiving the Eucharist…I say this to give people a greater perspective.
Also, there was a time in my native diocese of the great upset of the use of leaven bread, and we were taught it was wrong, and made the consecration invalid…I will have to formally study it from the Latin perspective…
But in her book, she said that when she received the Eucharist, she did experience God – without even trying. She experienced such goodness and well being, and it was an experience beyond her, and she has such fond memories of such. She died while I was caring for the cousin who was dealing with cancer. That person survived, and now has another book written by the Murranos…
On forgiveness that she learned while studying Christianity. I was not able to find time to read the rest of the book, but it was in the book of forgiveness and living a secular lifestyle, that she recollected her times going to Mass and receiving the Eucharist…I say this to give people a greater perspective.
Also, there was a time in my native diocese of the great upset of the use of leaven bread, and we were taught it was wrong, and made the consecration invalid…I will have to formally study it from the Latin perspective…
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KathleenGee
Guest
if Sam is indeed pondering Catholicism, he needs our prayers to reassure him that he is committing no wrong by either refusing the Cup or receiving the Lord in the Species of His Precious Blood. Either one, he is fully receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord and all the grace and Life therein.
Tonight Fr Corapi is on. And he said that 99% of the Catholics are at kindergarten level…
Tonight Fr Corapi is on. And he said that 99% of the Catholics are at kindergarten level…
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Aramis
Guest
Whomever said it was invalid was wrong. It’s illicit (not allowed) in the Roman Rite.
You need better instructors.
From the Catechism…
1398 The Eucharist and the unity of Christians. Before the greatness of this mystery St. Augustine exclaims, "O sacrament of devotion! O sign of unity! O bond of charity!"234 The more painful the experience of the divisions in the Church which break the common participation in the table of the Lord, the more urgent are our prayers to the Lord that the time of complete unity among all who believe in him may return.
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."235
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P42.HTM
Note the end of ¶1399… “A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, ‘given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.’”
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Aramis for clarifying…
That is from my past…we had alot of upheaval in my former diocese…the problem you point out here is that illicit is separate from invalid…there was alot of experimentation and open dissension towards our Holy Father by a highly vocal minority…
By no means was my post ever intended or did intend to denigrate the great devotion of the Eucharist by the Orthodox. I am well aware of those passages of the CC, but was reflecting more on the Liturgical norms in the Latin rite…I was recalling an event in the mid '80’s…
That is from my past…we had alot of upheaval in my former diocese…the problem you point out here is that illicit is separate from invalid…there was alot of experimentation and open dissension towards our Holy Father by a highly vocal minority…
By no means was my post ever intended or did intend to denigrate the great devotion of the Eucharist by the Orthodox. I am well aware of those passages of the CC, but was reflecting more on the Liturgical norms in the Latin rite…I was recalling an event in the mid '80’s…
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Sam_777
Guest
The issue that is very hard for me (even a sip), specially that I never ever touched wine in my whole life…
Interesting point.
Actually what makes Catholism as my first research that it’s founded immediately after JESUS, all other sects have started after hundreds of years (which is somehow questionable for me), I still do not believe that GOD let early Christians astray to come after hundreds of years and correct them, and that include other religions such as Islam…
Yes indeed…
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KathleenGee
Guest
Sam…I am coming from an experience in my former diocese where there were alot of abuses because of the misinterpretation of Vatican II, and I began to recall an experience that happened over 20 years ago.
I was drawing more on my own experiences in the Latin Church and wasn’t even thinking of the Orthodox…and they won’t let us take communion from them. I don’t have any experience attending Orthodox Masses, but have read about them and they are very beautiful.
But the Orthodox are not like the Protestants because the Orthodox are also descendents of the original Apostles. But we have a division of cultures.
For the Mass, I tend to draw on the liturgical instructions for the Latin Rite, and was invited to study through my own diocese. I merely read about Orthodoxy here on CAF, and CAF is Roman Catholic.
I understand your reluctance about any proximity to alcohol, and I don’t mean to disregard that either. You are not compelled to take the Cup.
You know, I was raised in a Catholic home, and I always believed in Christ, and the teachings of the Catholic Church about Christ and God, our form of worship. But as an institution, I did not believe up until I was 21 or so. My father remarked on it, and may be it had to do with my own experience in a very difficult Catholic grade school as a child where there were some mean people. I had to make an act of faith to believe in the Church as truly Christ’s church in spite of mean people in it.
We all have our own personal reasons that have held us back from fully believing. You are being tested…we are truly receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Do a search and look up St. Justin the Martyr’s explanation to the Roman Emperor in 150 AD…if you study the Mass more, you will see that its basic structure hasn’t changed…the structure is elaborated, and especially from what little I know about Orthodoxy, their liturgies are very elaborate.
The point being that our worship is given us by Christ as the fulfillment of the ancient Jewish temple worship. Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Son --Who unlike the son of Abraham, the precursor,-- Jesus was the True Sacrificial Son, sacrificed…for our sins. Catholic/Orthodox has divinely mandated worship of Christ in God and Spirit.
Even if you do become Catholic, you do not have to receive the Cup, but you need to remember you are no longer approaching alcohol…The Sacred Blood has the same appearance and taste of alcohol, but it is really and truly the Blood of Christ. You are truly approaching God HImself, the Manna of Heaven. That is why when we approach Him, we say Amen.
There is one thing Jesus said over and over…‘Do not fear!’ He loves you so much, and when you finally come fully to Him, He will take away all fear and give you wisdom through His Spirit. God bless you and I will keep you in prayer.
Like I said, when you approach the Sacrament with true faith, you are indeed facing God and it is not about what I think or how I feel that day, or the warm fuzzy feeling I have with my friends around me. When I come before God, I am coming before His majesty, He Who created this world, heaven and earth, who has the power to save me or condemn me. We must have fear of the Lord, not a slavish fear, but nevertheless, we must have proper fear of the Lord and proper respect.
You will be OK.
I was drawing more on my own experiences in the Latin Church and wasn’t even thinking of the Orthodox…and they won’t let us take communion from them. I don’t have any experience attending Orthodox Masses, but have read about them and they are very beautiful.
But the Orthodox are not like the Protestants because the Orthodox are also descendents of the original Apostles. But we have a division of cultures.
For the Mass, I tend to draw on the liturgical instructions for the Latin Rite, and was invited to study through my own diocese. I merely read about Orthodoxy here on CAF, and CAF is Roman Catholic.
I understand your reluctance about any proximity to alcohol, and I don’t mean to disregard that either. You are not compelled to take the Cup.
You know, I was raised in a Catholic home, and I always believed in Christ, and the teachings of the Catholic Church about Christ and God, our form of worship. But as an institution, I did not believe up until I was 21 or so. My father remarked on it, and may be it had to do with my own experience in a very difficult Catholic grade school as a child where there were some mean people. I had to make an act of faith to believe in the Church as truly Christ’s church in spite of mean people in it.
We all have our own personal reasons that have held us back from fully believing. You are being tested…we are truly receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Do a search and look up St. Justin the Martyr’s explanation to the Roman Emperor in 150 AD…if you study the Mass more, you will see that its basic structure hasn’t changed…the structure is elaborated, and especially from what little I know about Orthodoxy, their liturgies are very elaborate.
The point being that our worship is given us by Christ as the fulfillment of the ancient Jewish temple worship. Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Son --Who unlike the son of Abraham, the precursor,-- Jesus was the True Sacrificial Son, sacrificed…for our sins. Catholic/Orthodox has divinely mandated worship of Christ in God and Spirit.
Even if you do become Catholic, you do not have to receive the Cup, but you need to remember you are no longer approaching alcohol…The Sacred Blood has the same appearance and taste of alcohol, but it is really and truly the Blood of Christ. You are truly approaching God HImself, the Manna of Heaven. That is why when we approach Him, we say Amen.
There is one thing Jesus said over and over…‘Do not fear!’ He loves you so much, and when you finally come fully to Him, He will take away all fear and give you wisdom through His Spirit. God bless you and I will keep you in prayer.
Like I said, when you approach the Sacrament with true faith, you are indeed facing God and it is not about what I think or how I feel that day, or the warm fuzzy feeling I have with my friends around me. When I come before God, I am coming before His majesty, He Who created this world, heaven and earth, who has the power to save me or condemn me. We must have fear of the Lord, not a slavish fear, but nevertheless, we must have proper fear of the Lord and proper respect.
You will be OK.
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