The "Fruit of the Vine" versus wine.

[KathleenGee]

Jharek,

I can’t sleep starting about 3 am…then I go back about 5:30…but I did pick up something in your posts over time, and now that you have ‘come out’…I was realizing that this am before getting up…

Will keep you in prayer as well…

 

[Sam_777]

Sam…I am coming from an experience in my former diocese where there were alot of abuses because of the misinterpretation of Vatican II, and I began to recall an experience that happened over 20 years ago.

I was drawing more on my own experiences in the Latin Church and wasn’t even thinking of the Orthodox…and they won’t let us take communion from them. I don’t have any experience attending Orthodox Masses, but have read about them and they are very beautiful.

But the Orthodox are not like the Protestants because the Orthodox are also descendents of the original Apostles. But we have a division of cultures.

For the Mass, I tend to draw on the liturgical instructions for the Latin Rite, and was invited to study through my own diocese. I merely read about Orthodoxy here on CAF, and CAF is Roman Catholic.

I understand your reluctance about any proximity to alcohol, and I don’t mean to disregard that either. You are not compelled to take the Cup.

You know, I was raised in a Catholic home, and I always believed in Christ, and the teachings of the Catholic Church about Christ and God, our form of worship. But as an institution, I did not believe up until I was 21 or so. My father remarked on it, and may be it had to do with my own experience in a very difficult Catholic grade school as a child where there were some mean people. I had to make an act of faith to believe in the Church as truly Christ’s church in spite of mean people in it.

We all have our own personal reasons that have held us back from fully believing. You are being tested…we are truly receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Do a search and look up St. Justin the Martyr’s explanation to the Roman Emperor in 150 AD…if you study the Mass more, you will see that its basic structure hasn’t changed…the structure is elaborated, and especially from what little I know about Orthodoxy, their liturgies are very elaborate.

The point being that our worship is given us by Christ as the fulfillment of the ancient Jewish temple worship. Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Son --Who unlike the son of Abraham, the precursor,-- Jesus was the True Sacrificial Son, sacrificed…for our sins. Catholic/Orthodox has divinely mandated worship of Christ in God and Spirit.

Even if you do become Catholic, you do not have to receive the Cup, but you need to remember you are no longer approaching alcohol…The Sacred Blood has the same appearance and taste of alcohol, but it is really and truly the Blood of Christ. You are truly approaching God HImself, the Manna of Heaven. That is why when we approach Him, we say Amen.

There is one thing Jesus said over and over…‘Do not fear!’ He loves you so much, and when you finally come fully to Him, He will take away all fear and give you wisdom through His Spirit. God bless you and I will keep you in prayer.

Like I said, when you approach the Sacrament with true faith, you are indeed facing God and it is not about what I think or how I feel that day, or the warm fuzzy feeling I have with my friends around me. When I come before God, I am coming before His majesty, He Who created this world, heaven and earth, who has the power to save me or condemn me. We must have fear of the Lord, not a slavish fear, but nevertheless, we must have proper fear of the Lord and proper respect.

You will be OK.

Thank you Kathleen.

 

[Esdra]

But, grape juice is very clearly a recent man-made alteration of the very command of Jesus. It was introduced by men who misinterpreted scripture and/or did not trust themselves and thereby banned the same wine that Jesus used.

Yes that can be. But for me that’s no problem. Grape juice is also “fruite of the vine”. - And since we (Protestants) can use that instead of wine I as a more or less Anti-Alcoholic have no problem with that!

Ask yourself if it is possible that the Holy Spirit lead Sam both to Christ and to the Catholic Church. If the answer is yes, then consider that you might just be working against the Holy Spirit.

The HS can do what ever HE wants.(There is also a Bible verse concerning the HS and that he does what HE wants to. But I don’t know where it says…) He will Sam most definitely guide to Christ. But not necessarily to the CC.Maybe to the Orthodox or even to Protestants.
I think the HS works in every Christian denomination!

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

Remember … 500 years ago we did not have the fractured Christianity we see now. Many main line Protestant churches in the USA are fading away into the spirit of the world. The Anglicans are returning to the Catholic Church, and I am hearing there is a portion of the Lutherans doing the same. We are having Evangelicals coming into the Catholic church.

Christ’s constant prayer was that we be one. Remember how the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostles at Pentecost…and people of many languages heard one message of Jesus Christ. Or that by the year 150 AD, there was common practice throughout the entire Christian world of the Mass, with the reading of the Word of God and the Eucharist as sacrament.

The Lord is calling us to participate in the same faith as the Apostles. St. Peter himself warned people not to personally interpret the Scriptures. We must look at Scriptures from its entirety, its whole in salvation history. Our faith must reflect that only of the Apostles who were chosen by the Lord HImself.

We are to remain in the Lord and then we will bear much fruit…I can think of sources that are doing alot in healing and praying for others who are outside the practices of our faith in the Church…but He wants us to be under one roof.

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,

Remember … 500 years ago we did not have the fractured Christianity we see now. Many main line Protestant churches in the USA are fading away into the spirit of the world. The Anglicans are returning to the Catholic Church, and I am hearing there is a portion of the Lutherans doing the same. We are having Evangelicals coming into the Catholic church.

Christ’s constant prayer was that we be one. Remember how the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostles at Pentecost…and people of many languages heard one message of Jesus Christ. Or that by the year 150 AD, there was common practice throughout the entire Christian world of the Mass, with the reading of the Word of God and the Eucharist as sacrament.

The Lord is calling us to participate in the same faith as the Apostles. St. Peter himself warned people not to personally interpret the Scriptures. We must look at Scriptures from its entirety, its whole in salvation history. Our faith must reflect that only of the Apostles who were chosen by the Lord HImself.

We are to remain in the Lord and then we will bear much fruit…I can think of sources that are doing alot in healing and praying for others who are outside the practices of our faith in the Church…but He wants us to be under one roof.

This sounds as if all Anglicans would at the moment become Catholics. But as far as I know this isn’t true!
You also forget that MANY people become Evangelicals (Baptists, Pentecostals etc.) all over the world every day.
I guess it isn’t that simple. I hold it with the Evangelicals, “There is no physical united Church. We are all united in Christ Jesus”.

 

[Esdra]

Actually due to my very poor catechisis I have always believed the Eucharist as symbolic only before I came here to CAF and learned otherwise.
I guess this has to do with the fact that my dad has taken me with me to an (united ) Evangelical service once and so I started investigating Protestantism. (I guess in your eyes he acted false, right?)
And actually, I still fail to see, although I know the theoretical knowledge about the Eucharist now, the difference between the Eucharist and the (symbolic) Lord’s Supper.
For me it is still the same. Jesus said, “Do this in REMEBRANCEE of me”.

Anti-alcoholism is a false dilemma you keep attaching to this subject that is of no relevance ultimately. It is your private concern that is acting as a stumbling block to understanding the true meaning of the Eucharist and how it must be confected. In that regard as you have previously said you have personal family experience of alcoholism this gives us some understanding as to why you may hold this view. However the salient point is that the Blood of Christ is what you are consuming at the Mass or in Divine Liturgy.

Actually, I don’t think this isn’t a false dilemma. I guess, if I have interpreted Sam’s posts correctly, this is exactely why he started this thread!
One maybe must mention that I am not a hardcore Anti-Alcoholic. This means I do drink alcohol occasionally. But alcohol bears a danger - I am sure about that.

 

[Esdra]

What a very Catholic thing to say!

This thought is Catholic? I’ve always thought the Catholic believes that only her Church is the one and true Christian Church established by Christ Jesus?! And that all other have gone astray and don’t have the full truth?

 

[Esdra]

Well, he wanted to show me that there are also other Christians outside the RCC. This is the reason why he went with me to mentioned united Evangelical Church (meaning Reformed and Lutherans together) and to a Serbian Orthodox Church (I then later found out that they are officially called Serbian Oriental Orthodox Church. So I am not sure if they are really Eastern Orthodox. Although I do believe that people in Serbia are Eastern Orthodox and not Oriental Orthodox; anyway…)
Well, after I had become a Baptist I have often talked to my dad about religion. And I was astonished about his knowledge concerning Protestantism. And it was interesting to me that he holds a lot of Protestant believes. I often had the feeling talking to an ELCA-Lutheran. So he is most definitely a Cafeteria Catholic. What he extremely stumbles over is the Moral Theology of the CC. He is a deep lover of Vaticanum II and thinks that many steps that have been taken there were relativised or even denied in the present day CC.

Sam didn’t start the thread due to concerns so much with alcoholism as the fact that he is a Muslim and the issue of the Blood of Christ been confected from wine was a stumbling block to him given his background. The solution for him would be to join the Latin Rite as there is no expectation there that he must parake of both species and indeed even I have only rarely when younger partaken of it as it is was generally not offered in Churches where I grew up.

I can very well understand his concerns.
'Though you are right that his solution, if he really wanted to become a Catholic, would be the Latin Rite. As I also rarely got offered Jesus Blood in the Eucharist in my parish.
But, as I already have pointed out before, I like the idea of the grape juice because then really everybody (former alcoholics, children - I know that in the EO children get wine [see some posts above, where I wrote what I think about that!] :/; Muslims etc.) can partake at the Lord’s Supper.

 

[Esdra]

Hm, often I don’t have the feeling here that we (Protestants - from the word alone I am a Protestant, although I am still part of the RCC!) are seem as seperated brothers and sisters. Often I have the feeling that some people really want at all costs want to “convert” Protestants here…
So are the Protestants then also a Church ( Churches’d be better here)? Or only the various Eastern and Oriental Orthodox?

 

[po18guy]

Yes that can be. But for me that’s no problem. Grape juice is also “fruite of the vine”. - And since we (Protestants) can use that instead of wine I as a more or less Anti-Alcoholic have no problem with that!

Three points: Grape juice cannot and will not become the Blood of Christ, as this is not according to Christ’s command. Second, many sects do not even care - in fact reject the idea of consuming His Blood as “cannibalism”. Third, Christ gave power to do this only to the twelve, who passed it on to their successors. Thus, Catholic and Orthodox alone have that ability and authority.

The HS can do what ever HE wants.(There is also a Bible verse concerning the HS and that he does what HE wants to. But I don’t know where it says…) He will Sam most definitely guide to Christ. But not necessarily to the CC.Maybe to the Orthodox or even to Protestants.
I think the HS works in every Christian denomination!

First, both you and Sam came to a Catholic site - Sam for his own reasons and you for yours. Sam, a Muslim, has pointed out his reasons to doubt protestantism. In my mind, this is quite obviously by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Certainly, the Holy Spirit blows where He will - we know not where He comes from or where He goes (John 3:8) - but man can still work against the Holy Spirit, and this is indeed dangerous territory to place oneself in. Almost 2,000 years ago, a Pharisee named Gamaliel warned the other Pharisees against this in their persecution of the Apostles (Acts 5:34-39). Sam came here seeking answers, not the confusion of thousands of disagreeing denominations.

 

[vsedriver]

But, as I already have pointed out before, I like the idea of the grape juice because then really everybody (former alcoholics, children - I know that in the EO children get wine [see some posts above, where I wrote what I think about that!] :/; Muslims etc.) can partake at the Lord’s Supper.

what makes it the Lord’s Supper? as opposed to any other supper? at what point is it not the Lord’s Supper?

I know according to the Catholic Church you need certain people, material, and prayers to make it the Lord’s Supper.

If the Catholic Church doesn’t know what the Lord’s Supper is than how would anyone else know what is real and what is imitation?

 

[Esdra]

I’ve already thought so.

The Oriental Orthodox Churches are part of the Eastern family of Churches but they split earlier in history. They are valid Churches though and do possess valid orders and Eucharist. You are right though the majority of Serbians would be Serbian Orthodox.

Yes, this was also my thought. But officially (according to the Austrian government) they are called [Only in Serbian and German, sorry… :/]. (In German: Serbisch-griechisch-orientalische Kirchengemeinde) I don’t know if they are then Oriental Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox?

I fail to honestly see your issue regarding children receving the Blood of Christ in either the Orthodox or Catholic Churches. I do not as yet have children but should I have them in the future I will have no concerns whatsoever about them receiving this. Ultimately it’s not about what feels nice or what we like but what is in tune with scripture and the commands of the Church and grape juice is not.

I think this has to do with my upbringing: I was always thought that children shouldn’t under no circumstances given alcohol, not even a sip! This was also the reason why I didn’t drink ANY alcohol at all until I was about 17 or 18.
Well, my family history concerning Alcohol you already know from this thread.
And, actually, I still think children shouldn’t drink alcohol at all. - This also implies the Holy Blood of Jesus at the Eucharist.

 

[Esdra]

Yes, I know that this is the norm in many Eastern Catholic Churches (also learned that from CAF here. Like so many )
Actually, I also don’t think that it’d be a problem for my parents that I’d recieve the chalice with Jesus Blood at the Holy Eucharist. - 'Though, as this nevertheless never was a custom in my parish, I can’t tell for sure.

As to your question about whether the Serbian Church in question was Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox I’m not fluent enough in German to be absolutely sure. i would hazard as guess that it is Eastern Orthdox as to the best of my knowledge Oriental Orthodoxy has few followers and the Greek-Oriental nomenclature seems to suggest a tangential reference to the Greek Orthodox Church.

Thank you. I see. Yes, that’s a complicated thing with the Orthodox. When I started reading a bit about the different Orthodox Churches I sometimes nearly got the impression that they are nearly as scattered as the Protestant Churches. (Some even don’t have inter-community between each other!)
What I personally find most interesting are the “Thomas-Christians” in India. I’ve read that the Portuguiese who first arrived in India were more then astonished to find Christians in India. However, they “evangelized” them again to RCC.

I didn’t know that you can speak a little bit German. Did you learn it at school?

 

[elvisman]

None said anything about “a little wine”.
My concern is alcoholism, as many parts of my family were alcoholics!

And actually we are also talking about clean alcoholics and that they by no chance should ever drink alcohol again!
And about people which don’t drink alcohol at all. - Because of various reasons.

You see, in the old ages wine was important, as water couldn’t or better shouldn’t be drunk. - So wine and water mostly were mixed (like also Paul writes in 1 Tim 5:23)!

And NOBODY is forced to take the cup during them Mass. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ is present under either species.

 

[po18guy]

And NOBODY is forced to take the cup during them Mass. The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ is present under either species.

And Sam has expressed reservations about consuming alcohol for personally held reasons. I think “someone” here might be trying to steer him toward a false communion, a bad practice and a potential violation of forum rules.

 

[elvisman]

And Sam has expressed reservations about consuming alcohol for personally held reasons. I think “someone” here might be trying to steer him toward a false communion, a bad practice and a potential violation of forum rules.

**Yes, that would be bad. **

 

[KathleenGee]

Catching up here…in times past, we received the Sacraments of Initiation all at once – baptism, Eucharist and confirmation. I had a class with a prominent American deacon who encouraged us to think about this former practice.

 

[Sam_777]

Three points: Grape juice cannot and will not become the Blood of Christ, as this is not according to Christ’s command.

So shall I understand from that if a Catholic Church in a remote area run out of wine for any reason (earthquake, flood, war, etc), then that Church is prohibited from using grape juice in its Eucharist?

 

[Esdra]

And Sam has expressed reservations about consuming alcohol for personally held reasons. I think “someone” here might be trying to steer him toward a false communion, a bad practice and a potential violation of forum rules.

Yes, that would be bad.

I am not trying to steer Sam toward a false communion. (Btw., from my point of view the Protestants don’t have “false communion”. But that’s just my personal opinion.)
Btw, he posted his question in the non-Catholic forum of CAF and thus I assume that he is also interested in the opinion of other denominations than Catholic and Orthodox concerning this matter. I nowhere wrote that he has to go to a Protestant denomination or so. (Despite the fact that Protestantism isn’t really an option for him as he himself has stated in this thread. 'Though that’s sad IMO. I think you shouldn’t exclude certain denominations when searching “the Truth” [Which is very subjective, IMHO!].)

 

[Esdra]

So shall I understand from that if a Catholic Church in a remote area run out of wine for any reason (earthquake, flood, war, etc), then that Church is prohibited from using grape juice in its Eucharist?

Why should grape juice be available during war or after an earthquake or a flood or any other catastrophe and wine not?

Despite that matter, this would also interest me. What i.e. use Christians in Islamic countries like Iraq where it is very hard and quite expensive to buy alcohol and sometimes even prohibited? Or let’s take Bangladesh, as it is similar there concerning Alcohol, according to a friend of mine.